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+--- Thread: Primates and Predator Interactions (/topic-primates-and-predator-interactions)
RE: Primates and Predator Interactions - Pckts - 08-18-2016
Lions eat chimpanzees: The first evidence of predation by lions on wild chimpanzees
No report has confirmed predation on wild chimpanzees by lions. Recently, at least two lions visited the Mahale Mountains National Park, Tanzania. Chimpanzee remains, including hairs, bones, and a tooth, were found in four samples of lion feces between June and September 1989. The discovery of each fecal sample, widely separated in time, combined with analyses of daily attendance records and fecal contents, suggests that at least four chimpanzees, including two adult females, an old adolescent male, and an early adolescent male, were eaten. Observed responses of chimpanzees to lions included alarm calls, whimpers, climbing into trees, and silence. Predation by lions has been neglected as a factor shaping the social structure of chimpanzees. Nevertheless, the large party size that has often been observed in savanna-living chimpanzees, which are sympatric with lions, might be an anti-predator response of this species. © 1993 Wiley-Liss, Inc.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/229471547_Lions_eat_chimpanzees_The_first_evidence_of_predation_by_lions_on_wild_chimpanzees
Mahale Mountains National Park
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Primates and Predator Interactions - Sully - 08-19-2016
A revelation to say the least
RE: Primates and Predator Interactions - Sully - 08-19-2016
I'm sure I've shared this before on the forum but here is something interesting I found and posted on my G+
https://plus.google.com/103089044115459917661/posts/WL88yVyNP1Q
RE: Primates and Predator Interactions - Spalea - 08-19-2016
@Pckts:
About #16: First time I read a such account, very interesting and impressive ! It's clear that the threat by lions can oblige the chimpanzees to modify their behaviour. The lions living in prides too, we can imagine two or three hidden lionesses catching together in one go two or three chimpanzees before they could climb into the trees. In this case the lion becomes clearly the top predator of the chimpanzee in this portion of Tanzania.
Other thing: it is useless to precise than chimpanzees and lions are sympatric species. But the gorillas and the chimpanzees too, thus the myth of the hybride gorilla-chimpanzee existence, an hybrid able to defend itself and to retaliate against a lion, and finally to eat it, is clearly a myth, an amusing myth but a myth !
RE: Primates and Predator Interactions - brotherbear - 08-19-2016
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDEiYRwXG-A
RE: Primates and Predator Interactions - brotherbear - 08-19-2016
Pckts, I don't believe that lions had ever adapted to life within the tropical rainforests of the African Congo. Lions once lived on the Bateke Plateau, but that is far different from the interior jungle basin. For one thing, the Congo Basin covers an area of 1.8 million kilometers. If lions had indeed adapted to a life in the humid jungles, where are they now? There is plenty of water for them to drink. There is no shortage of prey animals, which includes mandrills, chimpanzees, and lowland gorillas. Avoiding people would be easier for them in the dark jungles than out on the open savanna. http://globalforestatlas.yale.edu/congo/ecoregions/congo-basin-ecoregion
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Primates and Predator Interactions - brotherbear - 08-19-2016
https://news.mongabay.com/2012/08/king-of-the-jungle-lions-discovered-in-rainforests/
http://rainforests.mongabay.com/0103.htm
LOWLAND VS. MONTANE FOREST
Lowland tropical rainforest refers to the majority of tropical rainforest, that is, forest which grows on flat lands at elevations generally less than 3,300 feet (1,000 m)—although elevation may vary. Lowland primary forest, often characterized by more than five forest tier levels, is usually taller and more diverse than montane forest. It has a greater diversity of fruiting trees; hence more animals specially adapted to feed on their fruits and more large mammals. Lowland rainforest is far more threatened than montane forest because of its accessibility, more suitable soils for agriculture, and more hardwoods valuable as timber. In many countries, virtually all lowland primary forest is gone, while montane forest still remains.
Tropical montane rainforest is forest that grows on mountains and above an altitude of 3,300 feet. High montane forest, above 6,600-10,000 feet (2,500-3,000 meters) in elevation, is often manifested as "cloud forest," forest that receives the majority of its precipitation from mist or fog that passes up from the moist, humid lowlands. The trees of cloud forests are typically shorter than those of lowland forest resulting in a less-developed canopy. Nevertheless, cloud forest trees are heavily burdened with epiphytes that thrive with the abundance of moisture from the passing fog. Trees in places like the lower elevations of the Andes in Ecuador, Peru, Colombia, and Venezuela; Central America (Monteverde in Costa Rica in particular); Borneo (Mount Kinabalu); and Africa (Ethiopia, Kenya, Rwanda, Zaire, Uganda), are frequently green with dense moss and beautiful, often rare, orchids.
Patches of cloud forests tend to have many endemic species, because they are often isolated from other sections of cloud forest by valleys and ridges. These species are prevented from migrating to other forest areas by these obstacles to the sides, by the lowland forest below, and by steep cliffs above. Cloud forests are home to an abundance of hummingbirds, frogs, and epiphytes like orchids, bromeliads, and mosses. Many of these species are endemic to a single locality, like theGolden toad of Monteverde, Costa Rica, a species which is now believed to be extinct. Cloud forests generally lack an abundance of large-bodied mammals due to the small number of fruiting trees.
Tropical montane forests are especially in the South American Andean region, where much of the forest has been cleared for agriculture. Of the continent's endangered species, a disproportionate number of those are found in yungas, the regional name for tropical montane forests in the Andes. These forests have also been little studied.
Above 10,000 feet (3,300 m), cloud forest may give way to sub-alpine and alpine forest. These habitats have less rain, fewer trees, and reduced biodiversity compared with lower elevation forests.
RE: Primates and Predator Interactions - brotherbear - 08-19-2016
Quote: Calling the African lion (Panthera leo) the ‘king of the jungle’ is usually a misnomer, as the species is almost always found in savannah or dry forests, but recent photos by the Germany-based Nature and Biodiversity Conservation Union (NABU) document lions in Ethiopian rainforests. Taken in the Kafa Biosphere Reserve, the photos show a female lion hiding out in thick montane jungle.
*So, perhaps it is nothing more than one's interpretation of the word "jungle." I remember well reading a book in high school titled "the Jungle," which was about the Belgian Congo. The jungle was descibed as being dark because of the canapy which formed a sort of roof overhead. Because of the lack of sunlight reaching the forest floor, there was very little underbrush. Damp, wet, mossy, ferns, vines, lots of birds, monkeys, reptiles, amphibians, and insects. The lowland jungle; where the roar of lions is never heard. This, like the Amazon basin, is my idea of a true jungle.
RE: Primates and Predator Interactions - Pckts - 08-19-2016
On your map, lions have lived in every section other than the central lowland forest.
There is a limit, this is not debated. No 200+kg non tree climbing predator can survive if it doesn't have room to move. This was never the debate, it only was "do lions live in the forests of the Congo" which they do, have done and hopefully will do more frequently. But look at the places they used to inhabit, all dense forest but with massive human presence and deforestation. The Congo also is extremely war torn and not easily studied.
@Spalea
They attributed the hybrid claims to the Bili ape and there are still accounts of the "grey hybrid ape" like the famous ones from the movie Congo. But of course you should take those claims with a grain of salt.
RE: Primates and Predator Interactions - brotherbear - 08-19-2016
(08-19-2016, 08:04 PM)Pckts Wrote: On your map, lions have lived in every section other than the central lowland forest.
There is a limit, this is not debated. No 200+kg non tree climbing predator can survive if it doesn't have room to move. This was never the debate, it only was "do lions live in the forests of the Congo" which they do, have done and hopefully will do more frequently. But look at the places they used to inhabit, all dense forest but with massive human presence and deforestation. The Congo also is extremely war torn and not easily studied.
You have your own version of what the debate was or was not. Lions do not live in the jungle; unless one includes a high-elevation plateau forest as being a jungle. Lions obviously have never been very successful at adapting to the Congo, else lion sightings in this location would not be so rare. Bottom line; lions are not jungle cats.
RE: Primates and Predator Interactions - Pckts - 08-19-2016
Not jungle cats but definitely Forest cats.
And they certainly were successful in the Congo since they lived there for thousands of years, certainly not successful at the moment but you can say that about many species. Was the tiger not successful in China since it's rarely seen there now?
You also seem to take for granted the Congo itself, it certainly isn't easy passage let alone to research and the introduction of camera traps is very recent and since they've been used we've already seen a lion in a territory it hasn't been seen in over 20 years.
RE: Primates and Predator Interactions - brotherbear - 08-19-2016
Look again at the map of the Congo. If the lion had successfully conquered this habitat, the African Congo would have more lions than the African savanna. What is the lion's only true enemy that can threaten the size of lion populations? The answer is man. Only in recent years has logging roads really opened up the African jungles. The lion should find the dark tropical jungle to be a safer place from people than the open savanna. Modern lions have been around since the late Pleistocene; well over 100,000 years. If he hasn't conquered the jungle by now, he never will.
Over in 'the future of big cats', you said... If you'd like to switch the debate to "lions don't live in the jungle" that is a different discussion, which of course I stated numerous times that a lion nor a tiger or any cat with that kind of mass can live in a densely packed eco system like a jungle.
Tigers live in Sumatra, home of orangutans and sun bears - jungle. But, there are no lions in the low-elevation jungle basin killing chimpanzees or gorillas. Likewise, I doubt that you will find a population of tigers living out on the open grasslands of Asia.
Oh, and by the way..."lions don't live in the jungle" is exactly the point I was making. But, I believe that, if tigers were introduced here, they would quickly adapt but might be devastating to wildlife not used to such a powerful predator.
*This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Primates and Predator Interactions - Pckts - 08-20-2016
"If the lion had successfully conquered this habitat, the African Congo would have more lions than the African savanna."
How do you come up with this?
"We define African savannahs as being those areas that receive between 300 and 1,500 mm of rain annually. This broad definition encompasses a variety of habitats. Thus defined, savannahs comprise 13.5 million km2 and encompass most of the present range of the African lion (Panthera leo)."
"Democratic Republic of the Congo/Area
905,600 mi² or 2,345,493.23km2"
not even 1/5 the size, 2nd is the differing landscape, rivers that separate it and the massive amounts of deforestation and human intrusion, war and generally uncertainty in the area.
"Only in recent years has logging roads really opened up the African jungles"
First off, "logging" is one small portion of a massive picture of deforestation that occurs when homes were built, industries began and resources began to be raped.
And if you think the destruction of the forest just "recently" began, you're mistaken.
"Officially, between 1884 and 1906 the Congo was controlled by a company entirely owned by King Leopold. The area was referred to as the 'Belgian Free State.' Until the end of the 1800s this company primarily exported ivory and palm-oil, a lubricant, from the Congo. Only a small profit was made from these products. At the end of the century, however, the world discovered rubber. Soon everyone wanted it to make tires, hoses, tubes, valves and many other products. Rubber is produced from a latex ‘sap’ that came either from a tree or a vine, both of which grew exceptionally well in the Congo Jungle. Because of the new demand, the Belgian companies began demanding massive amounts of rubber from the jungle and forced the natives to find massive amounts of it and deliver it to them."
https://wikis.engrade.com/imperialisminthecongo/6
"Modern lions have been around since the late Pleistocene; well over 100,000 years. If he hasn't conquered the jungle by now, he never will. "
Once again, the Lion has and did conquer that territory, hence why there is a specific lion sub species dedicated to it. I'm not sure why you keep going back to the "jungle" since you originally said "the forests of the Congo"
Marcin Kotowski
: ISE Congress 2016 Kampala, Uganda.
Lew azandyjski / Congo lion
*This image is copyright of its original author
Also note the congos old currency...
LOT NO 23
OLD CURRENCY NOTE OF CONGO LION SERIES
Condition:As per scan
Starting price:30
Minimum bid increase:10 rupee
Ending time:12:00pm SUNDAY 24/1/16
Shiping charges: 60+ 10 each additional item
*This image is copyright of its original author
"Tigers live in Sumatra, home of orangutans and sun bears - jungle. "
Sumatra is a Tropical Rainforest, at least 50% of it is, the "jungle" is a landscape that is within a forest, you can't have a "jungle" without a forest but you can have a "forest" with out a jungle. And since we have already posted a picture of a lion in the Rainforest as well, that is already an argument you can't use.
And by the way, the word "Jungle" originates from "forest"
"The word jungle originates from a Sanskrit word jangala, meaning "forest"."
Jungle vs Forest Info
http://www.diffen.com/difference/Forest_vs_Jungle
"Oh, and by the way..."lions don't live in the jungle" is exactly the point I was making."
That isn't what you said
You said
"I believe that lions will remain creatures of the open savanna and tigers will remain forest creatures. There are no lions living in the Congo."
RE: Primates and Predator Interactions - Polar - 08-21-2016
Both of you are correct in your assumptions. Some lions have managed to successfully adapt to the Congo rainforests (aren't jungles and rainforests the same?).
Like Pckts said, lions can certainly adapt to rainforested environments, yet not in huge numbers.
Like Brotherbear said, lions are ultimately adapted for completely open environments while those of the tigers are more closed and confined.
RE: Primates and Predator Interactions - tigerluver - 08-21-2016
Very interesting discussion that I need to catch up on.
Here's a study that investigated lions in west and central Africa. Of course it doesn't refute what few individuals are found there. The study and another one.