(03-16-2020, 11:19 PM)GuateGojira Wrote: I don't know if this is the correct topic and I don't know if these news were already posted in other topic. But these are very sad news for me:

86 tigers rescued from Tiger Temple died in government custody - September 17, 2019

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/2019/09/86-tiger-temple-big-cats-died/

Incredible, the tigers ended dead after its "rescue" from the monks.

(03-12-2020, 06:03 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote:

(03-12-2020, 05:51 PM)sanjay Wrote:

(03-12-2020, 05:51 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote: I'd like to ask about the issue of money and the poachers that kill wild animals like tigers for profits. Considering that the coronavirus has forced Chinese authorities to ban the consumption and trade of wild animals, and close down those cruel and unhygienic markets where wild and domestic animals alike were being traded and slaughtered (refer to what was being discussed in this thread for instance), besides increasing the risk of a global recession (partly by hitting the demand for oil, and leading to the current dispute between 2 major oil producers, which in itself has serious implications for the global economy), shouldn't poachers or their customers, who consume illegal animal products like tiger parts, themselves be in trouble now?

China is not only consumer of these things, Many south east country also have demands. Pandemic like coronavirus is temporary halt. Let it settle and it will emerge again. Sometime I think John Varty is doing better.

The pandemic may be temporary, but it has far-ranging consequences. Not only has tourism towards Southeast Asia, especially by Chinese tourists, taken a hit, but now there are serious worries for the global economy, namely the oil dispute, and an increased risk of recession, which at least theoretically means that customers of poachers or the wildlife trade will be in financial trouble, and therefore the poachers or wildlife traders themselves: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/12/coronavirus-global-recession-fears-intensify-as-trumps-europe-ban-fails-to-reassure, https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/economy/indicators/view-prepare-for-mammoth-coronavirus-induced-recession/articleshow/74583864.cms

(03-17-2020, 05:01 AM)Greatearth Wrote: This is something what I found out from Chinese tigers.

I think South China tigers are normally referring to South China (Huánan, 华南). The South China tiger is calling 华南虎 (Huánanho) in Mandarin (not sure of Cantonese). So from what it sounds, I think South China tiger is tiger population or subspecies lived areas south of Yangtze River. There are many different tribes, people, langauge, and cultures in Southeast Asia even in one country. Just like tigers, clouded leopards, leopards, rhinos, and elephants, many of those people in Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Thailand, and others lived together with Chinese in that area before 2,000 years ago. Vietnam is notable nation that was forced out to south by Chinese. That's why Vietnam is the only country of the southeast Asia that has Chinese culture. That's why they are well known infamous primitive and uncivilized people that is eating all of endangered animals from poaching along with Chinese. Their languages are also sounds similar if you listen Cantonese and Vietnamese.

I guess that is why South China tiger is known as the second smallest tiger in mainland Asia, but there are descent male South China tigers that I know are more than 160 kg, and close to 3 m long. They also seemed different by each provinces. There is no doubt Chinese tigers were different in appearance and size just like Bengal tigers look different by different locations. I think today's South China tiger is the right tiger subspecies who lost their "giant" gene. Again, there are limited information, pictures, and other information of the South China tiger. I also don't know sizes of South China tiger in Chinese zoos. I can't be 100% sure about this.

I don't know about tigers lived north of the Yangtze river and around Huang he river. I don't really know how many Chinese tigers (I am only referring South China tiger) lived in China in the 1800s to early 1900s. I heard somewhere that India still had 40000 tigers after India gain its independence. I don't know how did China lost their tigers so easily even though mainiland China experienced more of war and human activites along with Chinese's and Vietnamese's eating behaviors. I personally believe that China was actually "Land of Tigers," not India if time setting was before 1800s. They had the highest tiger subpseices in their country. What a pity that Chinese destroyed all of their nature treasures, not just tigers.

(03-16-2020, 05:15 PM)peter Wrote: BORNEAN TIGER AND PC

The debate on the, possible, connection between the trade in wild animals and diseases is interesting. My proposal is to start a new thread and continue over there. This thread is about wild tigers. 

RISHI

Thanks for moving a copy of the post on the maximum size of animals hunted by tigers to this thread. Can you move the posts of Bornean Tiger and PC on the virus and the trade in wild animals to the new thread? It will be created today.

(03-17-2020, 10:51 AM)BorneanTiger Wrote:

(03-16-2020, 05:15 PM)peter Wrote: BORNEAN TIGER AND PC

The debate on the, possible, connection between the trade in wild animals and diseases is interesting. My proposal is to start a new thread and continue over there. This thread is about wild tigers. 

RISHI

Thanks for moving a copy of the post on the maximum size of animals hunted by tigers to this thread. Can you move the posts of Bornean Tiger and PC on the virus and the trade in wild animals to the new thread? It will be created today.

Has the new thread been made yet?

(03-17-2020, 12:53 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote: @Greatearth Watch your language. Though it's true that poaching, or the consumption of body parts of animals like tigers, is a problem in Asia, there's also a man in the West whose actions show that he is more concerned about making money than the protecting the environment (such as when he overhauled the Endangered Species Act of 1973 last year, to allow economic factors to be considered before protecting threatened species), and has made a mockery of his country in front of the World by making statements like these (note his choice of words, which are similar to yours): https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1239685852093169664, https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/11/politics/read-trump-coronavirus-address/index.html

(03-16-2020, 05:15 PM)peter Wrote: Can you move the posts of Bornean Tiger and PC on the virus and the trade in wild animals to the new thread? It will be created today.

(03-17-2020, 12:53 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote: @Greatearth Watch your language. Though it's true that poaching, or the consumption of body parts of animals like tigers, is a problem in Asia, there's also a man in the West whose actions show that he is more concerned about making money than the protecting the environment and has made a mockery of his country in front of the World by making statements like these (note his choice of words, which are similar to yours): https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1239685852093169664, https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/11/politics/read-trump-coronavirus-address/index.html

(10-15-2019, 10:18 AM)BorneanTiger Wrote:

(08-27-2019, 03:59 PM)peter Wrote: WHY EUROPEAN ZOOS HAD NO REPRESENTATIVES OF CHINESE AND CASPIAN TIGERS

a - Colonization

In order to answer the question above, we need to start at the other end. Indonesian, Indian, Indochinese and Russian tigers were often seen in European zoos because they were caught and shipped to Europe and the Americas by professionals. In order to find, capture, sell and ship wild tigers, you first need to be there. You also need knowledge, organisation and motivation (money).

Russia and China were never occupied by European countries, but India, Indochina and Indonesia were. People in western Europe knew about tigers in these countries because they were hunted and, later, caught and shipped to Europe. European menageries and zoos were prepared to pay for them. Amur tigers were also seen because the Russians captured and sold young tigers.

This photograph was taken by Y. Saburo, a Japanese scientist. It shows a Russian trapper, his family and three tiger cubs:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Another one (with Saburo):

*This image is copyright of its original author

This photograph is from Sumatra. It shows two tigers shortly after they had been captured:

*This image is copyright of its original author

b - Conservation

Although many wild regions in southeastern Asia were cultivated, some regions in India in particular were protected to a degree. This is why tigers were able to survive for so long in most of southeastern Asia. 

Amur tigers survived because the region in which they lived was transferred from China to Russia in the second half of the 20th century. Although it was colonized to a degree, cultivation was far from easy. This is why hunting always was important in the Russian Far East. The Chinese in particular were involved and the effect, in spite of the efforts of the new rulers to fight destruction, was devastating. At the turn of the century, Arseniev and Dersu (see 'Dersu the Trapper') thought everything would be gone in one or two decades.

Here's Dersu Uzala. The photograph was taken by Arseniev:

*This image is copyright of its original author

The Second World War might have saved Amur tigers. The border was closed, most of the Chinese were expelled and people like Kaplanov got a chance. Not long after the war, measures were taken to protect tigers.

c - Destruction 

In order to cultivate the Caspian region, it was decided to remove tigers. Although reports about tigers still come in every now and then, they were exterminated in the forties, fifties and sixties of the previous century. Here's a captive Caspian tigress (Ognev, 1935):

*This image is copyright of its original author

In that period (just after World War Two), the Chinese also decided against tigers. The last tigers were shot in the mid-sixties. Although some survived in zoos and a few remote regions (see the series on Chinese tigers in this thread), Panthera tigris amoyensis was more or less hunted to extinction in less than two decades. This tiger was killed in 1956:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Although wild tigers were disappearing everywhere, the demand for tiger products didn't collapse. Far from it. As a result of the downfall of the tiger, prices skyrocketed. Poaching resulted in a crisis in both Russia and southeast Asia. The Russians were able to keep a few hundred Amur tigers alive, but in southeastern Asia tigers were quickly exterminated. They survived in some parts of Thailand and Malaysia, but that's about it. 

Bali tigers were exterminated in the forties and fifties of the last century. Javan tigers quickly followed. Sumatra still has tigers, but they lost most of their home (the forest) and are next on the list.   

d - Answers

Although wild animals were decimated in the period European countries occupied most of southeast Asia, tigers, albeit it only just, survived until the early fifties of the last century. In that period, wild tigers were captured and shipped to menageries and zoos in Europe and the Americas by professionals. This regarding Panthera tigris tigris, P.t. corbetti, P.t., P.t. balica, P.t. sondaica and P.t. sumatrae. 

P.t. virgata and P.t. amoyensis were hunted to extinction in the fifties and sixties of the previous century. The campaign was a result of the decision to cultivate the Caspian region and most of central and western China. Tigers in Indonesia disappeared for the same reason in the same period.

Amur tigers survived because the Russians acquired the region in which they lived in the second half of the 19th century (a). Furthermore, the new rulers opposed the destruction caused by settlers (b). Just before the Second World War, when tigers were close to the edge, the Chinese, heavily involved in hunting, were sent to China ©. After the war, as a result of Kaplanov's warning, measures were taken to protect tigers (d).  

After tigers in the Caspian region and in central parts of China had been exterminated, the demand for tiger products resulted in pressure on tigers in Russia and southeast Asia. The Russians, to a degree, were able to protect their tigers, but tigers were hunted to extinction in most of southeast Asia.

As far as I know, European zoos, apart from a few exceptions, never had Caspian and Chinese tigers. There was no information on the situation in the Caspian region and central parts of China in the fifties and sixties of the last century. The lack of information resulted in a quick end for P.t. virgata and P.t. amoyensis..   

Today, the situation in the department of awareness is different. Zoos know captive tigers can contribute to more (genetic) diversity. They also know tigers can be rewilded. More than before, zoos focus on preserving a specific (sub)species. 

This photograph from Tierpark Berlin has two Indochinese tigers: 

*This image is copyright of its original author

Although tigers still are close to the edge, the situation has improved in some parts of Asia. In the long run, however, tigers only seem to stand a chance in Russia, the Western Ghats and the Terai Arc.

Peter, I discovered something. Do you know Eram Zoo in Tehran, where Iranian authorities are housing a couple of Indian lions that were brought from Europe earlier this year, in a bid to repopulate their country with Asiatic lions, and from where in 2010 Iran gifted Russia with Persian leopards to repopulate the North Caucasus, in return for Amur tigers to replace their Caspian relatives? The zoo was founded in the 19th century by the Qajari Shah Naser Ad-Din, who had a collection of 3 Caspian tigers from Mazandaran, 4 male and female Persian lions from the Zagros Mountains near Shiraz, 3 Persian leopards and a cheetah from Jajrud, and 5 bears (I assume Syrian brown bears) from Damavand, judging by this Farsi website of Animal Rights Watch. And I'd like to mention that Naser Ad-Din was the predecessor of Mozaffar Ad-Din, during whose reign Britain's King Edward VII brought Shirea the Persian lioness to Dublin in 1902.

(03-17-2020, 05:01 AM)Greatearth Wrote: This is something what I found out from Chinese tigers.

I think South China tigers are normally referring to South China (Huánan, 华南). The South China tiger is calling 华南虎 (Huánanho) in Mandarin (not sure of Cantonese). So from what it sounds, I think South China tiger is tiger population or subspecies lived areas south of Yangtze River. There are many different tribes, people, langauge, and cultures in Southeast Asia even in one country. Just like tigers, clouded leopards, leopards, rhinos, and elephants, many of those people in Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Thailand, and others lived together with Chinese in that area before 2,000 years ago. Vietnam is notable nation that was forced out to south by Chinese. That's why Vietnam is the only country of the southeast Asia that has Chinese culture. Their languages are also sounds similar if you listen Cantonese and Vietnamese.

I guess that is why South China tiger is known as the second smallest tiger in mainland Asia, but there are descent male South China tigers that I know are more than 160 kg, and close to 3 m long. They also seemed different by each provinces. There is no doubt Chinese tigers were different in appearance and size just like Bengal tigers look different by different locations. I think today's South China tiger is the right tiger subspecies who lost their "giant" gene. Again, there are limited information, pictures, and other information of the South China tiger. I also don't know sizes of South China tiger in Chinese zoos. I can't be 100% sure about this.