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+--- Thread: Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project (/topic-asiatic-lion-reintroduction-project)
RE: Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project - peter - 09-11-2016
Blackleopard will continue about lions and tigers in the thread about animal trainers and respect both forum rules and mods. One more violation is game over.
We can now return to Gir lion reintroduction.
RE: Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project - peter - 09-12-2016
Blackleopard has been banned. Post 205 will be deleted.
RE: Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project - Siegfried - 09-12-2016
Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, possible interactions between lions and tigers needs to be considered as an outcome of moving a population of lions into areas of India other than Gujarat. In the US, the reintroduction of wolves into Yellowstone Park in 1995 clearly impacted biodiversity in the park. Elk numbers are down, which has led to increases in the plants that the elk ate. Coyotes numbers have declined. It is rather obvious that the reintroduction of an apex predator doesn't occur in a vacuum. This has to be at least partially a reason for the Indian government's apparent cautiousness in moving forward with the project.
RE: Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project - Apollo - 09-12-2016
Blackleopard you got the warning coz u were the initiator to bring up lion vs tiger and Bronco replied.
Lion vs tiger themed posts from Blackleopard and Bronco were removed.
No more lion vs tiger crap.
Thanks
RE: Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project - Amnon242 - 09-13-2016
Today asiatic lions are basically semi-wild felids. Maybe reintroducing asiatic lions from zoos into the wild (after proper training) would not be that different from relocation of gir lions. I think that it could be theoretically possible in Turkey. Quite big country with lot of free space...but ofc something like this is practically impossible. i have been to eastern Turkey couple of years ago...very nice country (with really very nice people - Im strongly against islamophobia, by the way), but local people told me that there are not any big animals any more. The country is empty. And dry. The intensity of rains has decreased considerabely over last decades. Another factor is political instability of that region. Maybe some unpopulated turkish or greek island could be a place for some interesing experiment...
Similar case is Iran...and I think that priority for Iran is the reintroducion of caspian (amur) tiger. And even this is probably impossible.
Big cats have nowhere to go.
BTW even in Czech repupublic (1/3 of the country is covered by forest) there is a big problem with the reintroduction of lynx and wolf. Hunters dont want them - they are competitors.
RE: Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project - brotherbear - 09-13-2016
BTW even in Czech repupublic (1/3 of the country is covered by forest) there is a big problem with the reintroduction of lynx and wolf. Hunters dont want them - they are competitors.
What sad reasoning. This reminds me of the years I lived in Florida. Many fishermen on the shore, when they catch a small shark or other predator fish or something they have no desire to eat, would toss the catch up onto the dry sand far from the water rather than back into the sea. Such a waste.
RE: Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project - GuateGojira - 09-13-2016
Some time ago, don't remember if it was in this topic, we discussed the plausibility of the reintroduction of Asian lions in other parts of the world. One poster even mentioned that Greece was a good place, something that we finally discarded for many factors.
However, I presented the case of Barnett et al. (2014), where they stated the possible reintroduction of Indian lions in North Africa, taking in count that they are the same subspecies than the Barbary lion and, genetically speaking, they are more pure than the captive lions in the Rabat Zoo. Why? Well, the genetic studies showed that the Indian lions present no interference of genetic of other populations, while the Rabat Zoo lions are not Barbary from the part of they mothers, which probably came from Central Africa.
Now, the real problem is the same that the one of Kuno and the other places proposed by Amnon242, which is the presence of humans that are 0 tolerant to large predators, don't say lions! I remember the case of Yellowstone, where some people protested for the reintroduction of wolves, as they believed that they will target they cattle (something that did not happen at the end).
The other issue is the government of Gujarat. Take in count that if Gujarat don't want to give lions to Kuno, which is in the same country, they will be more reluctant to give "they" lions to other country. Again, it seems that is not only conservation, but also local pride, reputation or even business issues.
About the interaction of predators, it is true, we don't know what will happen and in Yellowstone it resulted in problems for the local pumas, which suffered from lost of preys against the wolves. The issues here are: is Kuno the only place to reintroduce lions in India? Why Morocco or Turkey are not taken in count? How the governments will manage the conflict between humans and new large predators?
RE: Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project - Amnon242 - 09-16-2016
I think that in Turkey or Morocco could be reintroduced asiatic lions from zoos (so not necessarily gir lions)...ofc providing that it would be possible to train them to survive (but also gir lions are semi-domesticated). But there are many problems. The basic problem is that (as it seems) no one in these countries wants anything like that (and thats apprehensible).
Kuno: we know that lions coexisted with tigers, resp. tiger ruled the jungles while lions lived in more open areas. So both felids could inhabit different terrain and avoid each other. But would it be possible in Kuno? Would they be able to avoid each other? Id rather say that the confrontation would be inevitable. 900 km2 is not much...
BTW I thought that Rajastan would be suitable country for lions - low population density and no tigers. But apparently there are reasons for not choosing Rajastan...
BTW what is the current situation in the reintroduction project?
RE: Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project - GrizzlyClaws - 09-16-2016
1. Not many countries are willing to invest in a mega project with low profitability.
2. There are plenty of place to relocate them, but the local inhabitants generally cannot tolerate the introduction of the new super predator such as the lions.
3. Could the possible impact on the local ecosystems be predictable and controllable?
As peter mentioned before, there are no place left for the big cats in a humans dominated world.
RE: Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project - Amnon242 - 09-16-2016
(09-16-2016, 01:57 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: 1. Not many countries are willing to invest in a mega project with low profitability.
2. There are plenty of place to relocate them, but the local inhabitants generally cannot tolerate the introduction of the new super predator such as the lions.
3. Could the possible impact on the local ecosystems be predictable and controllable?
As peter mentioned before, there are no place left for the big cats in a humans dominated world.
Sad but true.
RE: Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project - Shardul - 09-16-2016
The whole point of the lion reintroduction project to Kuno was to have a backup population of the lions in case some natural calamity put the original Gir population in danger. People forget that out of the 500 or so asiatic lions alive, no more than 300 live in Gir, the rest have moved out to nearby forests and sanctuaries. Today, asiatic lions occupy 20,000 sq km of area in Gujarat, 10 times the size of Gir. Prides of lions have waded through human populated areas to find suitable forest patches. The lions themselves are choosing which areas to occupy, and they will continue to expand their territory, defying all "expert" predictions. In the future, they might move north into Rajasthan, or east into madhya Pradesh. Of course they will have to pass through human dense areas and it might take some time, but they have shown the ability to do so. Already, there are videos of lions moving into Bhavnagar city limits, so I'm pretty optimistic.
Reintroducing apex predators like lions and tigers is fraught with danger and contingent upon the local population's acceptance of these creatures, which is easier said than done. Tigers have already chosen Kuno by moving into it, let the lions decide which places are suitable for them. Who are we to make that decision on their behalf?
On a related note, the Government of Gujarat's point of view is simple in this matter. When lions were disappearing in the early 20th century from across asia, no one bothered saving them. The Gujarat govt, supported by its people, put so much time and effort into saving these creatures that now their population has grown substantially. So they did all the hard work and now everyone wants a piece of that cake? I may not agree with this POV, but I can certainly see its merit.
RE: Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project - Wolverine - 10-22-2016
Muhammad Bahadur Khanji IIIMuhammad Bahadur Khanji IIIMuhammad Mahabat Khanji II
(09-16-2016, 09:53 PM)Shardul Wrote: The whole point of the lion reintroduction project to Kuno was to have a backup population of the lions in case some natural calamity put the original Gir population in danger. People forget that out of the 500 or so asiatic lions alive, no more than 300 live in Gir, the rest have moved out to nearby forests and sanctuaries. Today, asiatic lions occupy 20,000 sq km of area in Gujarat, 10 times the size of Gir. Prides of lions have waded through human populated areas to find suitable forest patches. The lions themselves are choosing which areas to occupy, and they will continue to expand their territory, defying all "expert" predictions. In the future, they might move north into Rajasthan, or east into madhya Pradesh. Of course they will have to pass through human dense areas and it might take some time, but they have shown the ability to do so. Already, there are videos of lions moving into Bhavnagar city limits, so I'm pretty optimistic.Shardul:
Reintroducing apex predators like lions and tigers is fraught with danger and contingent upon the local population's acceptance of these creatures, which is easier said than done. Tigers have already chosen Kuno by moving into it, let the lions decide which places are suitable for them. Who are we to make that decision on their behalf?
On a related note, the Government of Gujarat's point of view is simple in this matter. When lions were disappearing in the early 20th century from across asia, no one bothered saving them. The Gujarat govt, supported by its people, put so much time and effort into saving these creatures that now their population has grown substantially. So they did all the hard work and now everyone wants a piece of that cake? I may not agree with this POV, but I can certainly see its merit.
1. You know very well that the lions would not be allowed to cross the borders of Gujarat with another Indian states because Gujarati authorities don't like this to happen. In the moment the lions approach Rajastan or Madhya Pradesh "dangereously" close they will be captured and returned deep in Gujarati territory.
2. The Asiatic lions are saved not by Gujarat's government but by efforts of Nawabs of Junagarh Muhammad Mahabat Khanji II, Muhammad Bahadur Khanji III and of cource by the good will of Lord Cerzon, Viceroy of India. Gujarat's government only inherited already saved lions.
3. In my opinion position of state of Gujarat is egotistic and Medieval in its nature. Panthera leo persica and all other animal species belong not to any single territory or state, but to all humanity.
4. Position of Gujarat's government is treason to unity of India, it represent a "zoological separatism" and prove that a lot of people in Gujarat think that they are not Indians. Mahatma Gandhi would get mad if he see what's happens in his native state.
5. Tigers are not "chosen Kuno", and even if a couple of tigers entered Kuno that's even beter. India is historicaly a land both of tigers and lions and they coexisted together for many milenia in numerous arias. If lions meet with tigers in Kuno that will be amazing and WILL SHIFT WORLDWIDE ATENTION FROM AFRICA TO INDIA. And that wiil be very very good for India and her touristic industry. At last will be a meeting between two kings.
RE: Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project - Wolverine - 10-22-2016
I suggest participants and readers in this forum from United States and Canada who love lions could write letter to US and Canadian governments and propose imposing of economic and financial sanctions on Indian state of Gujarat and imposing ban on visits of some Gujarati politicians in Western countries due to irresponsible and shameful position of Gujarati authorities concerning translocation and saving of endangered Asiatic lions.
RE: Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project - parvez - 10-22-2016
I do not prefer relocation of asiatic lions into other countries as they do not have the genetic diversity required for survival in different countries. They are inbred. But if technology has been developed to repair the genes in inbred ones, then they can be shifted to other countries.
RE: Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project - Shardul - 10-29-2016
@Wolverine,
1. Conspiracy theory without any basis.
2. The nawab of Junagarh only gave protection early on. Since 1947, it is the Gujarat state government that has been working on not only giving protection to the lions, but also managing their prey and habitat, providing maldharis adequate compensation so that they don't kill lions in retaliation to their cattles being lifted, and so on. They have been doing this since the last 70 years, and have done a better job of protecting their lions than any other state has done for tigers.
3. Yes, I agree, but I also think lions should be allowed to move out naturally, rather than being trans-located to areas with unknown problems.
4. hyperbole.
5a. Tigers will keep moving into Kuno from Ranthambhore as long as the corridor exists, so yes, in a way they have chosen Kuno by moving into it. They have also moved into Bharatpur, so we have a precedent.
5b. Most people in the world are unaware of the asiatic lion's existence. In fact, outside of tigers and elephants, most of India's wildlife is unknown to the world. Don't be fooled by these forums, since they represent a knowledgeable, but extremely tiny minority. If you don't believe me, check out the comments on the recent "Jungle Book" movie trailer, where most people were complaining that the movie was inaccurate since there were no rhinos or bears in India, or that the animals depicted in the movie don't even exist. So no, India will never take Africa's place, in terms of wildlife tourism, not in a million years.