Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project - Printable Version +- WildFact (https://wildfact.com/forum) +-- Forum: Nature & Conservation (https://wildfact.com/forum/forum-nature-conservation) +--- Forum: Projects, Protected areas & Issues (https://wildfact.com/forum/forum-projects-protected-areas-issues) +--- Thread: Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project (/topic-asiatic-lion-reintroduction-project) |
RE: Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project - Bronco - 09-08-2016 Hello everyone! I'm a long time lurker, but I finally decided to join coz some interesting topic is being discussed here & I had something to say regarding this. Many researchers including Kenneth Anderson (a renowned tiger hunter) of his time have also opined that the possible spread of lion through out India & eastern Asia was probably thwarted by the "more active animal". Now can anyone tell me what is the possible cause of why lions didn't make it to East & South East Asia? The common knowledge is lions entered India before tigers did, if humans interfered here than why humans were so generous & allow entry to tiger to spread throughout South East Asia & India? In Asia there are bigger reasons for tigers to be hunted than lions, the British mercilessly decimated tiger population in Asia, apart from that, from North East India to East Asia, tiger meat, body organs, bones, skin etc. are in huge demand. Even today, when poaching tigers have become so difficult, the focus has not shifted towards lion to that extent, still tiger meat & body organs are much sought after. Maharajahs in India use to import lions from Africa & having lions as pet was common. They used to introduce them into Indian jungles as well, so the lions that were spotted in early 1800s especially in eastern India (Bihar & Orissa) could possibly be these imported lions wandering in search of food after being dumped or found it difficult to hunt in tiger territory (Extinct and vanishing mammals of the Old World, pg.295). I mean it is quite possible that lions in Gir were also imported & relocated, the migration might have never happened (just a theory...lol). Isn't it baffling why lion migration stopped till India & couldn't spread to East Asia? RE: Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project - Apollo - 09-08-2016 (09-06-2016, 10:53 PM)Apollo Wrote: I like to add few info and points I hope everyone likes this read. *This image is copyright of its original author *This image is copyright of its original author *This image is copyright of its original author *This image is copyright of its original author *This image is copyright of its original author *This image is copyright of its original author *This image is copyright of its original author *This image is copyright of its original author *This image is copyright of its original author *This image is copyright of its original author *This image is copyright of its original author *This image is copyright of its original author *This image is copyright of its original author
RE: Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project - GuateGojira - 09-09-2016 That is the book that I mentioned, a good book, but still full of inaccuracies. The page about the size of the Indian lion is incorrect and a real mess of measurements, and even this chapter don't get to a conclusion about which of the cats was first in India (lion or tiger). However, like I mentioned before, newest and more accurate scientific (not popular) documents present a clarification of this issue. I think that the case of the lion in the Indian culture is somewhat exaggerated by Mitra, as even Divyabhanusinh (2005) accept the fact that the lion was used as a royal symbol just because the tiger was to much spiritual and powerful, that they afraid that the kings could believe that they were in the same level of divinity, so they choose a more material image, not used before, and add to this the influence of the Babilonic-Persian culture and the love for the lion (pg 78 and 79). Also, the tiger is not just a vehicle of the divinities, but is a god by itself. Check this book: *This image is copyright of its original author It is amazing how large and deep was (and still is!) the cult to the tiger in all Asia. Well, with this last clarification, let's return to the topic. I think that more important that the presence of one of two tiger in Kuno, a real problem for the translocation of the lions is the government of Gir itself. If the lion is no more only in Gir, they will loose the monopoly and could affect they image. However, they say that they are only afraid for the safety of the lions. What do you think? RE: Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project - Blackleopard - 09-10-2016 I'm actually looking into that book The Story of Asia's Lions, by Divyabhanusinh, there are lion sculptures and depictions all over the place in India, it appears more so than the tiger surprisingly. As well interesting to note there is picture called the A Lions Court. By Miskin, 1596-97 It states in the book, This painting from the Anwar-i-Suhaili shows the lion as the King of the animal world - a position rarely accorded to the tiger. *This image is copyright of its original author I did see the measurements of the Asiatic lions in the back of the book, most only length is mentioned, some chest girths and height are, but the author seems to think Asiatic lion and African lion would be of similar size. Perhaps if they had the larger numbers they would be. RE: Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project - GrizzlyClaws - 09-10-2016 It is very likely that the normal Asiatic lion was African lion in size, unlike their contemporary specimens. However, keep in mind that they were still Panthera leo, not other lion-like freaks such as Panthera atrox or Panthera spelaea. It is unlikely they used to physically dominate those large tiger subspecies. RE: Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project - GuateGojira - 09-10-2016 That is true, Divyabhanusinh (2005) even stated his believe that Crater lions are no bigger than the Indian lions (pg 22). However, the collection of measurements in Appendix 3 mix "between pegs" and "over curves" measurements, together with a few skin measurements. I made a great work collecting all the available measurements and create the next table, which summarize all those taken "between pegs" and all the available weights. *This image is copyright of its original author About the paint of the lion court, you should remember that this is a Mughal picture (at India, of course) and they already had the lion as a king, even long before they invaded India. In other words, this picture is not a reflect of the Hindu people, but from the invaders, although it use the Indian fauna. We most understand that Mughal culture is greatly influenced by the lion, as is based in the Persian culture. In chapter 2, Divyabhanusinh present an excellent account about what was the posture of Persians with lions, they never believed that it was a sacred animal, nor a god, but they do give them a great importance, so important that only the king could hunt them. The lion only arise in the Indian culture and art after the Harappans, at about 1,400 BCE (pg 55). RE: Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project - Kingtheropod - 09-10-2016 Great post Guate, as for size, I do think that it is maybe possible that there may have been dysgenics in the population or Gir lions. The same may have happened with Amur tigers. You see all these old records of huge specimens without a trace of them in modern time, why? Simple, the large ones where all hunted out! RE: Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project - Blackleopard - 09-10-2016 [attachment=563] Yeah I think that's true, because there is a picture in the Story of Asia's lions showing a record breaking Indian lion killed by the Sayaji Rao Gaekwad of Baroda, in 1900. Shot in the Amreli district, not sure where that is. The depiction of the Asiatic lion below is from the hunter Peregrine Herne's book, where he witnessed the lion and tiger confrontation. The artist's illustration is most likely what the hunter described, the Asiatic lion appears bulky with a decent sized mane. RE: Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project - GrizzlyClaws - 09-10-2016 The Asiatic lions are closely related to the Barbary lions, so they often have bigger mane than the African lions in the captivity. Many people often mixed them up with the Barbary lions. RE: Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project - Blackleopard - 09-10-2016 (09-10-2016, 10:26 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: The Asiatic lions are closely related to the Barbary lions, so they often have bigger mane than the African lions in the captivity. Yeah I think Ive seen that, captive Asiatic lions with huge thick manes, not sure why though many wild Asiatic lions don't have the full mane. I also am not sure why the Barbary lion would be larger or perhaps thicker than other African lions. Many African lions are as thick and powerful as a lion comes, perhaps there are some subspecies that are thinner maybe for the topography they have to get across, it being longer flatter hotter weather, as opposed to say more of a forest like terrain of the Morocco mountains or Indian woods. RE: Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project - GrizzlyClaws - 09-10-2016 These large maners aren't necessarily the Barbary lions, but many of them could be the African/Asian hybrids. RE: Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project - GrizzlyClaws - 09-11-2016 @ Your analysis is good, but sincerely you have to abide the forum's rules. No more lion kills tiger or tiger kills lion stuffs, you can draw an analogy between these two cats, but the versus theme is strictly prohibited. Several former posters didn't take this advice seriously, and they all ended up getting banned permanently. I truly hope you can become a permanent member in our community. If you can bring the concrete proof that lion got the superior canine teeth, we certainly encourage you to do so. RE: Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project - GuateGojira - 09-11-2016 (09-10-2016, 09:28 AM)Blackleopard Wrote: Yeah I think that's true, because there is a picture in the Story of Asia's lions showing a record breaking Indian lion killed by the Sayaji Rao Gaekwad of Baroda, in 1900. Shot in the Amreli district, not sure where that is. This is the Amreli district: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amreli_district The lion was hunted in the northern area, it is truly a record lion. According with appendix 3 of Divya.., there is a lion hunted by Sayaji Rao Gaekwad of Baroda that measured about 10' 0''. No idea if they are the same animal, probably not, but still this is a good candidate from a 3 meters long specimen (the longest reported, measured between pegs, was of 298.5 cm.). RE: Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project - Amnon242 - 09-11-2016 Oh no, tiger vs lion again.... btw there is absolutely no problem to find evidence supporting the superiority of one cat or the other. And there is absolutely no problem to contest or refute such evidence. This thing has been debated for many years. These debates were full of bias and cherry picking. Result: inconclusive. RE: Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project - Apollo - 09-11-2016 @ All your posts are lion vs tiger crap. You've been warned. Any more of this same crap you'll banned. |