(07-13-2020, 11:13 PM)Matimbalani Wrote:

(07-13-2020, 10:42 PM)Cath2020 Wrote: I don't think in this case it was entirely natural.  He was rejoining his own coalition, members that accepted him, then he quietly went about eliminating his own kin.  I think there were 11 of the cubs?  And yes, after that, is when he got the nickname "Satan."  A nickname very apt and fitting.

It's rare but not that exceptional. Matimba's are documented in one case killing cubs they had sired. In NG's Wild Kingdom Sikikama killed his sub-adult son. Those are instances where a camera was around and someone to document it. 

Actually infanticide is still common among humans, so I don't see why a lion doing it is so out of normal.

(07-15-2020, 08:23 PM)Cath2020 Wrote: Common in humans?  I disagree, but we're not here to argue that point.  And I'm aware that infanticide is common in lions, generally speaking.

I tend to think that animals are a bit smarter and more aware than we give them credit for.  The fact that Satan committed infanticide in the way he did, to the extent he did, is a bit over-the-top.  I just find it ironic that his coalition brothers calmly accepted him back into the fold without even a nip or fuss.....and he turns around and "re-pays" them by killing their own cubs.  At that point, they were aware that they couldn't really make a big fight out of it since they had already accepted him back, therefore they had to almost accept what he did later on by default.  They probably didn't anticipate he would systematically eliminate their progeny.  After all, what is a coalition for, their very reason to exist, if not to protect and promote their own bloodline???  Unfortunate for the Mapogo coalition as a whole, too, because some of their 11 cubs could have formed future coalitions and they were probably the last chance for any male lions to survive.  In addition, we could have had more lionesses from them than the rather paltry numbers they ended up being considering they conquered at least 9 prides and took over 80% of Sabi Sands.  They should have had many, many more surviving offspring.  It's very odd....even considering the fate of the 11 cubs sired by 4 of them. 

(07-15-2020, 08:23 PM)Cath2020 Wrote:

(07-13-2020, 11:13 PM)Matimbalani Wrote:

(07-13-2020, 10:42 PM)Cath2020 Wrote: I don't think in this case it was entirely natural.  He was rejoining his own coalition, members that accepted him, then he quietly went about eliminating his own kin.  I think there were 11 of the cubs?  And yes, after that, is when he got the nickname "Satan."  A nickname very apt and fitting.

It's rare but not that exceptional. Matimba's are documented in one case killing cubs they had sired. In NG's Wild Kingdom Sikikama killed his sub-adult son. Those are instances where a camera was around and someone to document it. 

Actually infanticide is still common among humans, so I don't see why a lion doing it is so out of normal.

Common in humans?  I disagree, but we're not here to argue that point.  And I'm aware that infanticide is common in lions, generally speaking.

I tend to think that animals are a bit smarter and more aware than we give them credit for.  The fact that Satan committed infanticide in the way he did, to the extent he did, is a bit over-the-top.  I just find it ironic that his coalition brothers calmly accepted him back into the fold without even a nip or fuss.....and he turns around and "re-pays" them by killing their own cubs.  At that point, they were aware that they couldn't really make a big fight out of it since they had already accepted him back, therefore they had to almost accept what he did later on by default.  They probably didn't anticipate he would systematically eliminate their progeny.  After all, what is a coalition for, their very reason to exist, if not to protect and promote their own bloodline???  Unfortunate for the Mapogo coalition as a whole, too, because some of their 11 cubs could have formed future coalitions and they were probably the last chance for any male lions to survive.  In addition, we could have had more lionesses from them than the rather paltry numbers they ended up being considering they conquered at least 9 prides and took over 80% of Sabi Sands.  They should have had many, many more surviving offspring.  It's very odd....even considering the fate of the 11 cubs sired by 4 of them.   

(07-15-2020, 08:48 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote:

(07-15-2020, 08:23 PM)Cath2020 Wrote: Common in humans?  I disagree, but we're not here to argue that point.  And I'm aware that infanticide is common in lions, generally speaking.

I tend to think that animals are a bit smarter and more aware than we give them credit for.  The fact that Satan committed infanticide in the way he did, to the extent he did, is a bit over-the-top.  I just find it ironic that his coalition brothers calmly accepted him back into the fold without even a nip or fuss.....and he turns around and "re-pays" them by killing their own cubs.  At that point, they were aware that they couldn't really make a big fight out of it since they had already accepted him back, therefore they had to almost accept what he did later on by default.  They probably didn't anticipate he would systematically eliminate their progeny.  After all, what is a coalition for, their very reason to exist, if not to protect and promote their own bloodline???  Unfortunate for the Mapogo coalition as a whole, too, because some of their 11 cubs could have formed future coalitions and they were probably the last chance for any male lions to survive.  In addition, we could have had more lionesses from them than the rather paltry numbers they ended up being considering they conquered at least 9 prides and took over 80% of Sabi Sands.  They should have had many, many more surviving offspring.  It's very odd....even considering the fate of the 11 cubs sired by 4 of them. 

Because of this situation, lionesses mate with all members of coalition, to "trick" them that all of them are fathers, otherwise cubs are in danger if they would mate with only 1 male out of 4 for example.. 

Great example is N. Avocas with Talamatis and Nkuhumas, both pride females mate with all 3 males (maybe not all females) even if DM is with Talamatis and Nkuhumas are with Mohawk/Blondie, just because of this situation.. If DM for example came to Nkuhumas now, cubs would be in serious danger if he didnt mate with those lionesses..

Mr T didn't mate with those lionesses, and he did what his insticts tell him, to kill those cubs to mate with those lionesses and raise his offspring, thats all..

Thats lions world, it has nothing to do with Mr T being "evil" or idk. Maybe less agressive and dominant male wouldn't do that, but we dont know that..

(07-15-2020, 11:25 PM)Matimbalani Wrote:

(07-15-2020, 08:23 PM)Cath2020 Wrote:

(07-13-2020, 11:13 PM)Matimbalani Wrote:

(07-13-2020, 10:42 PM)Cath2020 Wrote: I don't think in this case it was entirely natural.  He was rejoining his own coalition, members that accepted him, then he quietly went about eliminating his own kin.  I think there were 11 of the cubs?  And yes, after that, is when he got the nickname "Satan."  A nickname very apt and fitting.

It's rare but not that exceptional. Matimba's are documented in one case killing cubs they had sired. In NG's Wild Kingdom Sikikama killed his sub-adult son. Those are instances where a camera was around and someone to document it. 

Actually infanticide is still common among humans, so I don't see why a lion doing it is so out of normal.

Common in humans?  I disagree, but we're not here to argue that point.  And I'm aware that infanticide is common in lions, generally speaking.

I tend to think that animals are a bit smarter and more aware than we give them credit for.  The fact that Satan committed infanticide in the way he did, to the extent he did, is a bit over-the-top.  I just find it ironic that his coalition brothers calmly accepted him back into the fold without even a nip or fuss.....and he turns around and "re-pays" them by killing their own cubs.  At that point, they were aware that they couldn't really make a big fight out of it since they had already accepted him back, therefore they had to almost accept what he did later on by default.  They probably didn't anticipate he would systematically eliminate their progeny.  After all, what is a coalition for, their very reason to exist, if not to protect and promote their own bloodline???  Unfortunate for the Mapogo coalition as a whole, too, because some of their 11 cubs could have formed future coalitions and they were probably the last chance for any male lions to survive.  In addition, we could have had more lionesses from them than the rather paltry numbers they ended up being considering they conquered at least 9 prides and took over 80% of Sabi Sands.  They should have had many, many more surviving offspring.  It's very odd....even considering the fate of the 11 cubs sired by 4 of them.   

Yeah, I realize I shouldn't have dragged in human infanticide. Though according to Wikipedia "Parental infanticide researchers have found that mothers are far more likely than fathers to be the perpetrators of neonaticide and slightly more likely to commit infanticide in general" -- ins't that a big unexpected surprise?

My point was that the acting of killing cubs doesn't make Mr T exceptional and I provided instances where this has happened. Technically they weren't his cubs as he hadn't mated with any of those lionesses, so again he did what most male lions would do (and he returned from a territorial fight having barely survived.) To me that's ground enough to understand Mr Ts behavior without dragging in Biblical references, though it did wonders for the documentary makers as we are having this discussion right now. As to whether he killed the cubs with relish and joy, well, I don't know how to judge the attitudinal difference between a lion killing a cub in a regular way and a lion killing a cub in the Mr T way. So I can't say much to that. Should the other coalition members intervene? I don't know, is there a documented instance of a coalition member stepping in to prevent his fellow coalition members from killing their cub? I know lionesses that will kill cubs within a pride.

In the grand scheme of things I don't find Mapogos that exceptional. Big coalitions tend to control larger territories and may have numerous cubs but nothing is guaranteed. An outbreak of rabies or some other viral infection, and an entire generation of lions will get wiped out. So its all a series of probabilities and not something axiomatic.