(12-05-2019, 06:26 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote: Despite having killed larger whales, besides whale calves, orcas have difficulty in chasing fast adult whales: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2017/05/killer-whale-attacks-blue-whale-monterey-drone-video/

Not only that, orcas do have enemies that can fight them, and they are humpback whales (Megaptera novæangliæ), which may not only fight to defend themselves or their calves, whether related or unrelated, though male humpbacks may harm calves by trying to woo their mothers (so their mothers would communicate with them in a secret, intimate manner to avoid being heard by males or predators, at least orcas), but also other marine mammals that orcas would prey on, such as seals, even if rarely and for reasons (such as that the humpbacks or their calves were attacked by the orcas beforehand):

thus Hakai Magazine refers to orcas and humpback whales respectively as 'Bullies' and 'Bouncers': https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/07/why-did-humpback-whale-just-save-seals-life, https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2016/08/humpback-whales-save-animals-killer-whales-explained/, https://phys.org/news/2018-11-humpback-whale-survivors-orca-southeastern.html, https://qz.com/749836/humpback-whales-are-battling-killer-whales-to-rescue-other-mammals/, https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/what-humpback-whales-teach-us-compassion-180964545/

(08-19-2020, 09:26 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(08-19-2020, 03:18 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote:

(07-24-2020, 02:52 AM)Pckts Wrote: https://nypost.com/2020/07/15/shark-named-helen-drowns-whale-in-first-known-attack-of-its-kind/


GWS kills Humpback

Though it was a juvenile, it was much bigger than Helen the shark, about 3 times (and measuring 32–33 ft or 9.7536–10.0584 m), so that was incredible! Humpback whales (Megaptera novæangliæ) have been seen to fight or dominate orcas or killer whales (Orcinus orca), which in turn dominate GW sharks, so if a GW shark can do that to a much bigger creature, then what could Megalodon have done to Livyatan melvillei? https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-megalodon-not-as-big-as-we-once-thought?pid=124473#pid124473

Credit: National Geographic / Earth Touch

Frankly saying it looks like, that you are making quite wild conclusion from very little.

First, co-operation of some sharks and for instance orcas are in so different level as is intelligence, I don´t think that you can find any marine biologist saying otherwise. Then again humpback whales dominating orcas... based on what? They can confront orcas for sure in pods, but still orcas hunt also humpbacks. Some sharks managing to do the same to some lone humpback, impressive, but still not quite the same. Orcas, when they choose to, can attack against a pod of humpbacks.

Here one article to open up a bit of observations: http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20141209-orcas-and-whales-in-epic-battle . Big whales are formidable, but humpback whales are still prey for orcas and orcas are able to kill calves despite adult humpbacks do their best to protect. 

While sharks might do sometimes some co-operation (on purpose or by accident can be asked, because there aren´t too much signs of communicating really), it has to be remembered, that whales and orcas can communicate during hunt and use several tactics depending on their prey. In some occasions there are suggestions, that orcas can frankly saying terrorize some other animals just for fun, a little bit like cat playing with mouse.

For me what you write is way too far-fetched and looking like, that you almost tendentiously try to make conclusions from very vague cases. Like you would have first decided, that you want to prove in some way, that megalodons would have dominated everything. And then you have started to look for anything what you could use to make it look like it.

Sorry to say this so frankly, but it´s how it looks like for me now. And not convincing for me personally at least, not at all. Sharks just aren´t that intelligent even though they do swarm often in same places. Still they scatter when bigger shark or orcas approach. No co-operation to overcome even a single bigger predator.

(08-22-2020, 06:28 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote: Forward from here: https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-great-white-shark-carcharodon-carcharias?pid=124517#pid124517

(08-19-2020, 09:26 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(08-19-2020, 03:18 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote:

(07-24-2020, 02:52 AM)Pckts Wrote: https://nypost.com/2020/07/15/shark-named-helen-drowns-whale-in-first-known-attack-of-its-kind/


GWS kills Humpback

Though it was a juvenile, it was much bigger than Helen the shark, about 3 times (and measuring 32–33 ft or 9.7536–10.0584 m), so that was incredible! Humpback whales (Megaptera novæangliæ) have been seen to fight or dominate orcas or killer whales (Orcinus orca), which in turn dominate GW sharks, so if a GW shark can do that to a much bigger creature, then what could Megalodon have done to Livyatan melvillei? https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-megalodon-not-as-big-as-we-once-thought?pid=124473#pid124473

Credit: National Geographic / Earth Touch

Frankly saying it looks like, that you are making quite wild conclusion from very little.

First, co-operation of some sharks and for instance orcas are in so different level as is intelligence, I don´t think that you can find any marine biologist saying otherwise. Then again humpback whales dominating orcas... based on what? They can confront orcas for sure in pods, but still orcas hunt also humpbacks. Some sharks managing to do the same to some lone humpback, impressive, but still not quite the same. Orcas, when they choose to, can attack against a pod of humpbacks.

Here one article to open up a bit of observations: http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20141209-orcas-and-whales-in-epic-battle . Big whales are formidable, but humpback whales are still prey for orcas and orcas are able to kill calves despite adult humpbacks do their best to protect. 

While sharks might do sometimes some co-operation (on purpose or by accident can be asked, because there aren´t too much signs of communicating really), it has to be remembered, that whales and orcas can communicate during hunt and use several tactics depending on their prey. In some occasions there are suggestions, that orcas can frankly saying terrorize some other animals just for fun, a little bit like cat playing with mouse.

For me what you write is way too far-fetched and looking like, that you almost tendentiously try to make conclusions from very vague cases. Like you would have first decided, that you want to prove in some way, that megalodons would have dominated everything. And then you have started to look for anything what you could use to make it look like it.

Sorry to say this so frankly, but it´s how it looks like for me now. And not convincing for me personally at least, not at all. Sharks just aren´t that intelligent even though they do swarm often in same places. Still they scatter when bigger shark or orcas approach. No co-operation to overcome even a single bigger predator.

To quote that article in full, it's baleen whale calves that orcas would usually prey on, and even adult baleens (usually barring humpbacks) have been observed to flee from orcas, but aside from the fact that orcas have managed to snatch calves from protective adults, in a fair face-to-face fight, orcas are no match for humpbacks, like how hyenas are no match for lions, though thankfully for the orcas, the baleens don't have the teeth to kill them: http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20141209-orcas-and-whales-in-epic-battle

New research reveals how orcas attack baleen whales, and how the whales fight back

By Matt Walker
8 December 2014

It's a Battle Royale; one of nature's great confrontations. Under the waves cruises a pod of orcas, huge, sleek predators, each around 8 metres long and weighing some 6 tonnes. Each with big jaws, full of teeth. They are hunting a great baleen whale, one of the largest animals that has ever lived. Such life-or-death battles, between orcas and whales, have captured the popular imagination. But the truth is more complicated.

Adult humpbacks are formidable foes (credit: Christopher Michel / CC by 2.0)


For a start it has been unclear whether orcas, also known as killer whales, really hunt whales, and how often. Nor did we know how the whales themselves might react to such attacks. Now for the first time, scientists have recorded orcas attacking and killing humpback whales, specifically young calves. The results are published in the journal Marine Mammal Science. What's more, the humpback whales themselves aren't passive victims. They aggressively turn to battle the orcas, and even recruit "escort" whales to help fight off the attacks. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/mms.12182

Rare sightings

Orcas have developed a reputation for preying on baleen whales, a group that includes blue, fin and humpback whales among others. They have been recorded attempting to attack almost every species, and also sperm whales, the largest species of toothed whale. Many whales display tooth marks made by orcas on their tails and flippers, suggesting such attacks are common.

A washed-up grey whale calf marked by orca teeth (credit: DocentJoyce CC by 2.0)


But with a few notable exceptions, including times when orcas have preyed upon grey whale calves, successful attacks by orcas on whales have rarely been documented. For example, humpback whales are among the most studied large whales, being observed for countless hours at sea by scientists. More orca tooth marks are found on humpbacks than any other whale species. But until now there was no scientific record of an orca killing a humpback whale. Research over recent decades has also revealed a range of orca populations around the world, each hunting different prey using different techniques. Many don't hunt whales at all. Some orcas for example, particularly those living in northern latitudes including the North Pacific and Antarctica, only hunt fish, while others exclusively hunt seals. But now researchers have observed the action close up.

Some orcas are specialist hunters (credit: Doug Perrine / NPL)


Robert Pitman, a marine biologist based at the US National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, in La Jolla, California and colleagues from the US and Australia, tracked orcas and humpback whales off the coast of Western Australia. They observed orcas attempting 22 separate attacks on humpback whales. On 14 occasions, the orcas attacked and killed a humpback whale calf.

Orcas hunt in pods (credit: NOAA / Vancouver Aquarium)


To investigate further, the scientists attached a tracker to a female orca, which allowed them to use satellites to monitor her movements. They followed her for six days. During that time, her pod attacked eight humpback whale calves. During the seven attacks in which the researchers witnessed the outcome, the orcas killed the humpback whale calf on three occasions. That suggests that, for this population of orcas at least, humpback whales are a predictable and plentiful prey, although the orcas were only seen attacking calves and not adult whales. But the story doesn't end there.

Adult humpbacks are formidable foes (credit: Simon Ager / CC by 2.0)


Baleen whales themselves are popularly thought to be large but generally unassuming, passive creatures. Pitman's study reveals another side to their character. When chased by orcas, certain species of baleen whale are known to try to outswim their pursuers. Blue, fin and minke whales are thought to do this, sprinting at high speed so that the orcas can't keep up. On some occasions, the humpback whales seen by Pitman's team sought out protection. They swam to shallow water, nearby reefs, or even under the researchers' boats. These tactics often curtailed the attack. But at other times, the humpback whales decided to stay and fight. As the orcas approached, the mother humpback would sometimes move her calf to her side, or lift it out of the water using her head or flippers. She also blew huge breaths of air to disturb the orcas, and lunged or charged at them, slashing and slapping her tail and flippers.

Whales may thrash their tails to defend each other (credit: Liza / CC by 2.0)


Perhaps most surprising, humpback whales also have adult "escorts" that try to protect calves that are not their own, joining the mother in defending the smaller whale. These escort whales either charged at the orcas, or placed themselves between the attackers and calf, thrashing their tails and flippers. It is not yet clear whether escort whales are related to the calves and if not, how they might benefit from defending them. Despite the efforts of the mother whales and escorts, the orcas were more often than not successful in their attacks. But the presence of the escorts did reduce how many times a whale calf was killed. In light of their study, the researchers believe that orcas may congregate each year off the coast of Western Australia to prey on baby humpback whales. Humpbacks usually give birth to one calf every two years, so each calf killed is a significant loss to a mother.

(08-23-2020, 12:02 AM)Shadow Wrote:

(08-22-2020, 06:28 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote: Forward from here: https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-great-white-shark-carcharodon-carcharias?pid=124517#pid124517

(08-19-2020, 09:26 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(08-19-2020, 03:18 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote:

(07-24-2020, 02:52 AM)Pckts Wrote: https://nypost.com/2020/07/15/shark-named-helen-drowns-whale-in-first-known-attack-of-its-kind/


GWS kills Humpback

Though it was a juvenile, it was much bigger than Helen the shark, about 3 times (and measuring 32–33 ft or 9.7536–10.0584 m), so that was incredible! Humpback whales (Megaptera novæangliæ) have been seen to fight or dominate orcas or killer whales (Orcinus orca), which in turn dominate GW sharks, so if a GW shark can do that to a much bigger creature, then what could Megalodon have done to Livyatan melvillei? https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-megalodon-not-as-big-as-we-once-thought?pid=124473#pid124473

Credit: National Geographic / Earth Touch

Frankly saying it looks like, that you are making quite wild conclusion from very little.

First, co-operation of some sharks and for instance orcas are in so different level as is intelligence, I don´t think that you can find any marine biologist saying otherwise. Then again humpback whales dominating orcas... based on what? They can confront orcas for sure in pods, but still orcas hunt also humpbacks. Some sharks managing to do the same to some lone humpback, impressive, but still not quite the same. Orcas, when they choose to, can attack against a pod of humpbacks.

Here one article to open up a bit of observations: http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20141209-orcas-and-whales-in-epic-battle . Big whales are formidable, but humpback whales are still prey for orcas and orcas are able to kill calves despite adult humpbacks do their best to protect. 

While sharks might do sometimes some co-operation (on purpose or by accident can be asked, because there aren´t too much signs of communicating really), it has to be remembered, that whales and orcas can communicate during hunt and use several tactics depending on their prey. In some occasions there are suggestions, that orcas can frankly saying terrorize some other animals just for fun, a little bit like cat playing with mouse.

For me what you write is way too far-fetched and looking like, that you almost tendentiously try to make conclusions from very vague cases. Like you would have first decided, that you want to prove in some way, that megalodons would have dominated everything. And then you have started to look for anything what you could use to make it look like it.

Sorry to say this so frankly, but it´s how it looks like for me now. And not convincing for me personally at least, not at all. Sharks just aren´t that intelligent even though they do swarm often in same places. Still they scatter when bigger shark or orcas approach. No co-operation to overcome even a single bigger predator.

To quote that article in full, it's baleen whale calves that orcas would usually prey on, and even adult baleens (usually barring humpbacks) have been observed to flee from orcas, but aside from the fact that orcas have managed to snatch calves from protective adults, in a fair face-to-face fight, orcas are no match for humpbacks, like how hyenas are no match for lions, though thankfully for the orcas, the baleens don't have the teeth to kill them: http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20141209-orcas-and-whales-in-epic-battle

New research reveals how orcas attack baleen whales, and how the whales fight back

By Matt Walker
8 December 2014

It's a Battle Royale; one of nature's great confrontations. Under the waves cruises a pod of orcas, huge, sleek predators, each around 8 metres long and weighing some 6 tonnes. Each with big jaws, full of teeth. They are hunting a great baleen whale, one of the largest animals that has ever lived. Such life-or-death battles, between orcas and whales, have captured the popular imagination. But the truth is more complicated.

Adult humpbacks are formidable foes (credit: Christopher Michel / CC by 2.0)

*This image is copyright of its original author

For a start it has been unclear whether orcas, also known as killer whales, really hunt whales, and how often. Nor did we know how the whales themselves might react to such attacks. Now for the first time, scientists have recorded orcas attacking and killing humpback whales, specifically young calves. The results are published in the journal Marine Mammal Science. What's more, the humpback whales themselves aren't passive victims. They aggressively turn to battle the orcas, and even recruit "escort" whales to help fight off the attacks. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/mms.12182

Rare sightings

Orcas have developed a reputation for preying on baleen whales, a group that includes blue, fin and humpback whales among others. They have been recorded attempting to attack almost every species, and also sperm whales, the largest species of toothed whale. Many whales display tooth marks made by orcas on their tails and flippers, suggesting such attacks are common.

A washed-up grey whale calf marked by orca teeth (credit: DocentJoyce CC by 2.0)

*This image is copyright of its original author

But with a few notable exceptions, including times when orcas have preyed upon grey whale calves, successful attacks by orcas on whales have rarely been documented. For example, humpback whales are among the most studied large whales, being observed for countless hours at sea by scientists. More orca tooth marks are found on humpbacks than any other whale species. But until now there was no scientific record of an orca killing a humpback whale. Research over recent decades has also revealed a range of orca populations around the world, each hunting different prey using different techniques. Many don't hunt whales at all. Some orcas for example, particularly those living in northern latitudes including the North Pacific and Antarctica, only hunt fish, while others exclusively hunt seals. But now researchers have observed the action close up.

Some orcas are specialist hunters (credit: Doug Perrine / NPL)

*This image is copyright of its original author

Robert Pitman, a marine biologist based at the US National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, in La Jolla, California and colleagues from the US and Australia, tracked orcas and humpback whales off the coast of Western Australia. They observed orcas attempting 22 separate attacks on humpback whales. On 14 occasions, the orcas attacked and killed a humpback whale calf.

Orcas hunt in pods (credit: NOAA / Vancouver Aquarium)

*This image is copyright of its original author

To investigate further, the scientists attached a tracker to a female orca, which allowed them to use satellites to monitor her movements. They followed her for six days. During that time, her pod attacked eight humpback whale calves. During the seven attacks in which the researchers witnessed the outcome, the orcas killed the humpback whale calf on three occasions. That suggests that, for this population of orcas at least, humpback whales are a predictable and plentiful prey, although the orcas were only seen attacking calves and not adult whales. But the story doesn't end there.

Adult humpbacks are formidable foes (credit: Simon Ager / CC by 2.0)

*This image is copyright of its original author

Baleen whales themselves are popularly thought to be large but generally unassuming, passive creatures. Pitman's study reveals another side to their character. When chased by orcas, certain species of baleen whale are known to try to outswim their pursuers. Blue, fin and minke whales are thought to do this, sprinting at high speed so that the orcas can't keep up. On some occasions, the humpback whales seen by Pitman's team sought out protection. They swam to shallow water, nearby reefs, or even under the researchers' boats. These tactics often curtailed the attack. But at other times, the humpback whales decided to stay and fight. As the orcas approached, the mother humpback would sometimes move her calf to her side, or lift it out of the water using her head or flippers. She also blew huge breaths of air to disturb the orcas, and lunged or charged at them, slashing and slapping her tail and flippers.

Whales may thrash their tails to defend each other (credit: Liza / CC by 2.0)

*This image is copyright of its original author

Perhaps most surprising, humpback whales also have adult "escorts" that try to protect calves that are not their own, joining the mother in defending the smaller whale. These escort whales either charged at the orcas, or placed themselves between the attackers and calf, thrashing their tails and flippers. It is not yet clear whether escort whales are related to the calves and if not, how they might benefit from defending them. Despite the efforts of the mother whales and escorts, the orcas were more often than not successful in their attacks. But the presence of the escorts did reduce how many times a whale calf was killed. In light of their study, the researchers believe that orcas may congregate each year off the coast of Western Australia to prey on baby humpback whales. Humpbacks usually give birth to one calf every two years, so each calf killed is a significant loss to a mother.

I have to say, that your logic doesn´t quite open up now. Should we start to make comparisons in the way, that luckily cape buffalos and gaurs don´t have fangs and claws etc. ? And maybe then, that luckily lions aren´t 500 kg heavier and sabertooth etc.... 

Anyway whales and dolphins are in very different level what comes to intelligence than for instance sharks. So they have far better chances to defend against predators. Then again lone whale is in way bigger danger than whales in pods. Still even alone, their intelligence is superior in comparison with most other animals in sea or land or air. So when you compare for instance megalodons and humpback whales, you need to understand that difference, which has been there most likely in past too. It´s not only the size which gives benefits to big whales, it´s also intelligence making it possible to capitalize it in best possible way. Sharks don´t defend themselves in groups, they scatter in panic also when a lot of sharks. In same situation whales co-operate.

(08-23-2020, 06:17 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote:

(08-23-2020, 12:02 AM)Shadow Wrote:

(08-22-2020, 06:28 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote: Forward from here: https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-great-white-shark-carcharodon-carcharias?pid=124517#pid124517

(08-19-2020, 09:26 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(08-19-2020, 03:18 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote:

(07-24-2020, 02:52 AM)Pckts Wrote: https://nypost.com/2020/07/15/shark-named-helen-drowns-whale-in-first-known-attack-of-its-kind/


GWS kills Humpback

Though it was a juvenile, it was much bigger than Helen the shark, about 3 times (and measuring 32–33 ft or 9.7536–10.0584 m), so that was incredible! Humpback whales (Megaptera novæangliæ) have been seen to fight or dominate orcas or killer whales (Orcinus orca), which in turn dominate GW sharks, so if a GW shark can do that to a much bigger creature, then what could Megalodon have done to Livyatan melvillei? https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-megalodon-not-as-big-as-we-once-thought?pid=124473#pid124473

Credit: National Geographic / Earth Touch

Frankly saying it looks like, that you are making quite wild conclusion from very little.

First, co-operation of some sharks and for instance orcas are in so different level as is intelligence, I don´t think that you can find any marine biologist saying otherwise. Then again humpback whales dominating orcas... based on what? They can confront orcas for sure in pods, but still orcas hunt also humpbacks. Some sharks managing to do the same to some lone humpback, impressive, but still not quite the same. Orcas, when they choose to, can attack against a pod of humpbacks.

Here one article to open up a bit of observations: http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20141209-orcas-and-whales-in-epic-battle . Big whales are formidable, but humpback whales are still prey for orcas and orcas are able to kill calves despite adult humpbacks do their best to protect. 

While sharks might do sometimes some co-operation (on purpose or by accident can be asked, because there aren´t too much signs of communicating really), it has to be remembered, that whales and orcas can communicate during hunt and use several tactics depending on their prey. In some occasions there are suggestions, that orcas can frankly saying terrorize some other animals just for fun, a little bit like cat playing with mouse.

For me what you write is way too far-fetched and looking like, that you almost tendentiously try to make conclusions from very vague cases. Like you would have first decided, that you want to prove in some way, that megalodons would have dominated everything. And then you have started to look for anything what you could use to make it look like it.

Sorry to say this so frankly, but it´s how it looks like for me now. And not convincing for me personally at least, not at all. Sharks just aren´t that intelligent even though they do swarm often in same places. Still they scatter when bigger shark or orcas approach. No co-operation to overcome even a single bigger predator.

To quote that article in full, it's baleen whale calves that orcas would usually prey on, and even adult baleens (usually barring humpbacks) have been observed to flee from orcas, but aside from the fact that orcas have managed to snatch calves from protective adults, in a fair face-to-face fight, orcas are no match for humpbacks, like how hyenas are no match for lions, though thankfully for the orcas, the baleens don't have the teeth to kill them: http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20141209-orcas-and-whales-in-epic-battle

New research reveals how orcas attack baleen whales, and how the whales fight back

By Matt Walker
8 December 2014

It's a Battle Royale; one of nature's great confrontations. Under the waves cruises a pod of orcas, huge, sleek predators, each around 8 metres long and weighing some 6 tonnes. Each with big jaws, full of teeth. They are hunting a great baleen whale, one of the largest animals that has ever lived. Such life-or-death battles, between orcas and whales, have captured the popular imagination. But the truth is more complicated.

Adult humpbacks are formidable foes (credit: Christopher Michel / CC by 2.0)

*This image is copyright of its original author

For a start it has been unclear whether orcas, also known as killer whales, really hunt whales, and how often. Nor did we know how the whales themselves might react to such attacks. Now for the first time, scientists have recorded orcas attacking and killing humpback whales, specifically young calves. The results are published in the journal Marine Mammal Science. What's more, the humpback whales themselves aren't passive victims. They aggressively turn to battle the orcas, and even recruit "escort" whales to help fight off the attacks. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/mms.12182

Rare sightings

Orcas have developed a reputation for preying on baleen whales, a group that includes blue, fin and humpback whales among others. They have been recorded attempting to attack almost every species, and also sperm whales, the largest species of toothed whale. Many whales display tooth marks made by orcas on their tails and flippers, suggesting such attacks are common.

A washed-up grey whale calf marked by orca teeth (credit: DocentJoyce CC by 2.0)

*This image is copyright of its original author

But with a few notable exceptions, including times when orcas have preyed upon grey whale calves, successful attacks by orcas on whales have rarely been documented. For example, humpback whales are among the most studied large whales, being observed for countless hours at sea by scientists. More orca tooth marks are found on humpbacks than any other whale species. But until now there was no scientific record of an orca killing a humpback whale. Research over recent decades has also revealed a range of orca populations around the world, each hunting different prey using different techniques. Many don't hunt whales at all. Some orcas for example, particularly those living in northern latitudes including the North Pacific and Antarctica, only hunt fish, while others exclusively hunt seals. But now researchers have observed the action close up.

Some orcas are specialist hunters (credit: Doug Perrine / NPL)

*This image is copyright of its original author

Robert Pitman, a marine biologist based at the US National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, in La Jolla, California and colleagues from the US and Australia, tracked orcas and humpback whales off the coast of Western Australia. They observed orcas attempting 22 separate attacks on humpback whales. On 14 occasions, the orcas attacked and killed a humpback whale calf.

Orcas hunt in pods (credit: NOAA / Vancouver Aquarium)

*This image is copyright of its original author

To investigate further, the scientists attached a tracker to a female orca, which allowed them to use satellites to monitor her movements. They followed her for six days. During that time, her pod attacked eight humpback whale calves. During the seven attacks in which the researchers witnessed the outcome, the orcas killed the humpback whale calf on three occasions. That suggests that, for this population of orcas at least, humpback whales are a predictable and plentiful prey, although the orcas were only seen attacking calves and not adult whales. But the story doesn't end there.

Adult humpbacks are formidable foes (credit: Simon Ager / CC by 2.0)

*This image is copyright of its original author

Baleen whales themselves are popularly thought to be large but generally unassuming, passive creatures. Pitman's study reveals another side to their character. When chased by orcas, certain species of baleen whale are known to try to outswim their pursuers. Blue, fin and minke whales are thought to do this, sprinting at high speed so that the orcas can't keep up. On some occasions, the humpback whales seen by Pitman's team sought out protection. They swam to shallow water, nearby reefs, or even under the researchers' boats. These tactics often curtailed the attack. But at other times, the humpback whales decided to stay and fight. As the orcas approached, the mother humpback would sometimes move her calf to her side, or lift it out of the water using her head or flippers. She also blew huge breaths of air to disturb the orcas, and lunged or charged at them, slashing and slapping her tail and flippers.

Whales may thrash their tails to defend each other (credit: Liza / CC by 2.0)

*This image is copyright of its original author

Perhaps most surprising, humpback whales also have adult "escorts" that try to protect calves that are not their own, joining the mother in defending the smaller whale. These escort whales either charged at the orcas, or placed themselves between the attackers and calf, thrashing their tails and flippers. It is not yet clear whether escort whales are related to the calves and if not, how they might benefit from defending them. Despite the efforts of the mother whales and escorts, the orcas were more often than not successful in their attacks. But the presence of the escorts did reduce how many times a whale calf was killed. In light of their study, the researchers believe that orcas may congregate each year off the coast of Western Australia to prey on baby humpback whales. Humpbacks usually give birth to one calf every two years, so each calf killed is a significant loss to a mother.

I have to say, that your logic doesn´t quite open up now. Should we start to make comparisons in the way, that luckily cape buffalos and gaurs don´t have fangs and claws etc. ? And maybe then, that luckily lions aren´t 500 kg heavier and sabertooth etc.... 

Anyway whales and dolphins are in very different level what comes to intelligence than for instance sharks. So they have far better chances to defend against predators. Then again lone whale is in way bigger danger than whales in pods. Still even alone, their intelligence is superior in comparison with most other animals in sea or land or air. So when you compare for instance megalodons and humpback whales, you need to understand that difference, which has been there most likely in past too. It´s not only the size which gives benefits to big whales, it´s also intelligence making it possible to capitalize it in best possible way. Sharks don´t defend themselves in groups, they scatter in panic also when a lot of sharks. In same situation whales co-operate.

Though it's true that cetacea are smarter than sharks and fish, a fact is that sharks can be social (this has also been observed in great whites, even if rarely), and Megalodon was a huge monster with the size and teeth that could help it kill at least one orca, like how a lion has the size and teeth to kill at least one hyena, whereas a baleen whale can't do that with its mouth, though it remains to be seen whether or not a thrash of its huge tail could kill an orca, as was mentioned in the BBC article, and even lone humpbacks are brave enough to tackle pods of orcas, as mentioned by Live Science: https://www.livescience.com/55639-humpbacks-protect-when-killer-whales-attack.html#:~:text=The%20study%20found%20that%20large,animal%20the%20orca%20is%20attacking.

(08-24-2020, 03:34 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(08-23-2020, 06:17 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote:

(08-23-2020, 12:02 AM)Shadow Wrote:

(08-22-2020, 06:28 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote: Forward from here: https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-great-white-shark-carcharodon-carcharias?pid=124517#pid124517

(08-19-2020, 09:26 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(08-19-2020, 03:18 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote:

(07-24-2020, 02:52 AM)Pckts Wrote: https://nypost.com/2020/07/15/shark-named-helen-drowns-whale-in-first-known-attack-of-its-kind/


GWS kills Humpback

Though it was a juvenile, it was much bigger than Helen the shark, about 3 times (and measuring 32–33 ft or 9.7536–10.0584 m), so that was incredible! Humpback whales (Megaptera novæangliæ) have been seen to fight or dominate orcas or killer whales (Orcinus orca), which in turn dominate GW sharks, so if a GW shark can do that to a much bigger creature, then what could Megalodon have done to Livyatan melvillei? https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-megalodon-not-as-big-as-we-once-thought?pid=124473#pid124473

Credit: National Geographic / Earth Touch

Frankly saying it looks like, that you are making quite wild conclusion from very little.

First, co-operation of some sharks and for instance orcas are in so different level as is intelligence, I don´t think that you can find any marine biologist saying otherwise. Then again humpback whales dominating orcas... based on what? They can confront orcas for sure in pods, but still orcas hunt also humpbacks. Some sharks managing to do the same to some lone humpback, impressive, but still not quite the same. Orcas, when they choose to, can attack against a pod of humpbacks.

Here one article to open up a bit of observations: http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20141209-orcas-and-whales-in-epic-battle . Big whales are formidable, but humpback whales are still prey for orcas and orcas are able to kill calves despite adult humpbacks do their best to protect. 

While sharks might do sometimes some co-operation (on purpose or by accident can be asked, because there aren´t too much signs of communicating really), it has to be remembered, that whales and orcas can communicate during hunt and use several tactics depending on their prey. In some occasions there are suggestions, that orcas can frankly saying terrorize some other animals just for fun, a little bit like cat playing with mouse.

For me what you write is way too far-fetched and looking like, that you almost tendentiously try to make conclusions from very vague cases. Like you would have first decided, that you want to prove in some way, that megalodons would have dominated everything. And then you have started to look for anything what you could use to make it look like it.

Sorry to say this so frankly, but it´s how it looks like for me now. And not convincing for me personally at least, not at all. Sharks just aren´t that intelligent even though they do swarm often in same places. Still they scatter when bigger shark or orcas approach. No co-operation to overcome even a single bigger predator.

To quote that article in full, it's baleen whale calves that orcas would usually prey on, and even adult baleens (usually barring humpbacks) have been observed to flee from orcas, but aside from the fact that orcas have managed to snatch calves from protective adults, in a fair face-to-face fight, orcas are no match for humpbacks, like how hyenas are no match for lions, though thankfully for the orcas, the baleens don't have the teeth to kill them: http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20141209-orcas-and-whales-in-epic-battle

New research reveals how orcas attack baleen whales, and how the whales fight back

By Matt Walker
8 December 2014

It's a Battle Royale; one of nature's great confrontations. Under the waves cruises a pod of orcas, huge, sleek predators, each around 8 metres long and weighing some 6 tonnes. Each with big jaws, full of teeth. They are hunting a great baleen whale, one of the largest animals that has ever lived. Such life-or-death battles, between orcas and whales, have captured the popular imagination. But the truth is more complicated.

Adult humpbacks are formidable foes (credit: Christopher Michel / CC by 2.0)

*This image is copyright of its original author

For a start it has been unclear whether orcas, also known as killer whales, really hunt whales, and how often. Nor did we know how the whales themselves might react to such attacks. Now for the first time, scientists have recorded orcas attacking and killing humpback whales, specifically young calves. The results are published in the journal Marine Mammal Science. What's more, the humpback whales themselves aren't passive victims. They aggressively turn to battle the orcas, and even recruit "escort" whales to help fight off the attacks. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/mms.12182

Rare sightings

Orcas have developed a reputation for preying on baleen whales, a group that includes blue, fin and humpback whales among others. They have been recorded attempting to attack almost every species, and also sperm whales, the largest species of toothed whale. Many whales display tooth marks made by orcas on their tails and flippers, suggesting such attacks are common.

A washed-up grey whale calf marked by orca teeth (credit: DocentJoyce CC by 2.0)

*This image is copyright of its original author

But with a few notable exceptions, including times when orcas have preyed upon grey whale calves, successful attacks by orcas on whales have rarely been documented. For example, humpback whales are among the most studied large whales, being observed for countless hours at sea by scientists. More orca tooth marks are found on humpbacks than any other whale species. But until now there was no scientific record of an orca killing a humpback whale. Research over recent decades has also revealed a range of orca populations around the world, each hunting different prey using different techniques. Many don't hunt whales at all. Some orcas for example, particularly those living in northern latitudes including the North Pacific and Antarctica, only hunt fish, while others exclusively hunt seals. But now researchers have observed the action close up.

Some orcas are specialist hunters (credit: Doug Perrine / NPL)

*This image is copyright of its original author

Robert Pitman, a marine biologist based at the US National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, in La Jolla, California and colleagues from the US and Australia, tracked orcas and humpback whales off the coast of Western Australia. They observed orcas attempting 22 separate attacks on humpback whales. On 14 occasions, the orcas attacked and killed a humpback whale calf.

Orcas hunt in pods (credit: NOAA / Vancouver Aquarium)

*This image is copyright of its original author

To investigate further, the scientists attached a tracker to a female orca, which allowed them to use satellites to monitor her movements. They followed her for six days. During that time, her pod attacked eight humpback whale calves. During the seven attacks in which the researchers witnessed the outcome, the orcas killed the humpback whale calf on three occasions. That suggests that, for this population of orcas at least, humpback whales are a predictable and plentiful prey, although the orcas were only seen attacking calves and not adult whales. But the story doesn't end there.

Adult humpbacks are formidable foes (credit: Simon Ager / CC by 2.0)

*This image is copyright of its original author

Baleen whales themselves are popularly thought to be large but generally unassuming, passive creatures. Pitman's study reveals another side to their character. When chased by orcas, certain species of baleen whale are known to try to outswim their pursuers. Blue, fin and minke whales are thought to do this, sprinting at high speed so that the orcas can't keep up. On some occasions, the humpback whales seen by Pitman's team sought out protection. They swam to shallow water, nearby reefs, or even under the researchers' boats. These tactics often curtailed the attack. But at other times, the humpback whales decided to stay and fight. As the orcas approached, the mother humpback would sometimes move her calf to her side, or lift it out of the water using her head or flippers. She also blew huge breaths of air to disturb the orcas, and lunged or charged at them, slashing and slapping her tail and flippers.

Whales may thrash their tails to defend each other (credit: Liza / CC by 2.0)

*This image is copyright of its original author

Perhaps most surprising, humpback whales also have adult "escorts" that try to protect calves that are not their own, joining the mother in defending the smaller whale. These escort whales either charged at the orcas, or placed themselves between the attackers and calf, thrashing their tails and flippers. It is not yet clear whether escort whales are related to the calves and if not, how they might benefit from defending them. Despite the efforts of the mother whales and escorts, the orcas were more often than not successful in their attacks. But the presence of the escorts did reduce how many times a whale calf was killed. In light of their study, the researchers believe that orcas may congregate each year off the coast of Western Australia to prey on baby humpback whales. Humpbacks usually give birth to one calf every two years, so each calf killed is a significant loss to a mother.

I have to say, that your logic doesn´t quite open up now. Should we start to make comparisons in the way, that luckily cape buffalos and gaurs don´t have fangs and claws etc. ? And maybe then, that luckily lions aren´t 500 kg heavier and sabertooth etc.... 

Anyway whales and dolphins are in very different level what comes to intelligence than for instance sharks. So they have far better chances to defend against predators. Then again lone whale is in way bigger danger than whales in pods. Still even alone, their intelligence is superior in comparison with most other animals in sea or land or air. So when you compare for instance megalodons and humpback whales, you need to understand that difference, which has been there most likely in past too. It´s not only the size which gives benefits to big whales, it´s also intelligence making it possible to capitalize it in best possible way. Sharks don´t defend themselves in groups, they scatter in panic also when a lot of sharks. In same situation whales co-operate.

Though it's true that cetacea are smarter than sharks and fish, a fact is that sharks can be social (this has also been observed in great whites, even if rarely), and Megalodon was a huge monster with the size and teeth that could help it kill at least one orca, like how a lion has the size and teeth to kill at least one hyena, whereas a baleen whale can't do that with its mouth, though it remains to be seen whether or not a thrash of its huge tail could kill an orca, as was mentioned in the BBC article, and even lone humpbacks are brave enough to tackle pods of orcas, as mentioned by Live Science: https://www.livescience.com/55639-humpbacks-protect-when-killer-whales-attack.html#:~:text=The%20study%20found%20that%20large,animal%20the%20orca%20is%20attacking.

Sharks are nowhere near the intelligence and social behavior of whales, when looking at it how they act. When there is a danger shark reaction is "everyone takes care of him-/herself and that´s it. There are no defence formations, no communication how to change it etc. 

Talking about social sharks can be possible to some point, but it´s a far fetch to compare them to some species which are really social. Lions are in different level, when comparing sharks to lions I can´t see justification. Lions can hunt together, they are loyal and they also fight together against threat many times. For me it looks like, that you reach way too far when trying to make some new theories. Your comparisons doesn´t seem to make too much sense when looking closer.

When using lions in comparison, then it would make more sense to compare lions and orcas, which has been done by some people and big whales are more comparable with buffalos for instance. Cape buffalos can´t protect their calves and even adult ones, but they do defend themselves in groups etc. Of course talking about domination is even there questionable. There aren´t any whales which could be saying to "dominate" orcas. Orcas hunt them all, only biggest blue whales seem to be too big for them or at least too fast when fleeing. Orcas have hunted and killed whales over 20 meters long, so they have what it takes.

(08-24-2020, 11:45 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote:

(08-24-2020, 03:34 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(08-23-2020, 06:17 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote:

(08-23-2020, 12:02 AM)Shadow Wrote:

(08-22-2020, 06:28 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote: Forward from here: https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-great-white-shark-carcharodon-carcharias?pid=124517#pid124517

(08-19-2020, 09:26 PM)Shadow Wrote:

(08-19-2020, 03:18 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote:

(07-24-2020, 02:52 AM)Pckts Wrote: https://nypost.com/2020/07/15/shark-named-helen-drowns-whale-in-first-known-attack-of-its-kind/


GWS kills Humpback

Though it was a juvenile, it was much bigger than Helen the shark, about 3 times (and measuring 32–33 ft or 9.7536–10.0584 m), so that was incredible! Humpback whales (Megaptera novæangliæ) have been seen to fight or dominate orcas or killer whales (Orcinus orca), which in turn dominate GW sharks, so if a GW shark can do that to a much bigger creature, then what could Megalodon have done to Livyatan melvillei? https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-megalodon-not-as-big-as-we-once-thought?pid=124473#pid124473

Credit: National Geographic / Earth Touch

Frankly saying it looks like, that you are making quite wild conclusion from very little.

First, co-operation of some sharks and for instance orcas are in so different level as is intelligence, I don´t think that you can find any marine biologist saying otherwise. Then again humpback whales dominating orcas... based on what? They can confront orcas for sure in pods, but still orcas hunt also humpbacks. Some sharks managing to do the same to some lone humpback, impressive, but still not quite the same. Orcas, when they choose to, can attack against a pod of humpbacks.

Here one article to open up a bit of observations: http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20141209-orcas-and-whales-in-epic-battle . Big whales are formidable, but humpback whales are still prey for orcas and orcas are able to kill calves despite adult humpbacks do their best to protect. 

While sharks might do sometimes some co-operation (on purpose or by accident can be asked, because there aren´t too much signs of communicating really), it has to be remembered, that whales and orcas can communicate during hunt and use several tactics depending on their prey. In some occasions there are suggestions, that orcas can frankly saying terrorize some other animals just for fun, a little bit like cat playing with mouse.

For me what you write is way too far-fetched and looking like, that you almost tendentiously try to make conclusions from very vague cases. Like you would have first decided, that you want to prove in some way, that megalodons would have dominated everything. And then you have started to look for anything what you could use to make it look like it.

Sorry to say this so frankly, but it´s how it looks like for me now. And not convincing for me personally at least, not at all. Sharks just aren´t that intelligent even though they do swarm often in same places. Still they scatter when bigger shark or orcas approach. No co-operation to overcome even a single bigger predator.

To quote that article in full, it's baleen whale calves that orcas would usually prey on, and even adult baleens (usually barring humpbacks) have been observed to flee from orcas, but aside from the fact that orcas have managed to snatch calves from protective adults, in a fair face-to-face fight, orcas are no match for humpbacks, like how hyenas are no match for lions, though thankfully for the orcas, the baleens don't have the teeth to kill them: http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20141209-orcas-and-whales-in-epic-battle

New research reveals how orcas attack baleen whales, and how the whales fight back

By Matt Walker
8 December 2014

It's a Battle Royale; one of nature's great confrontations. Under the waves cruises a pod of orcas, huge, sleek predators, each around 8 metres long and weighing some 6 tonnes. Each with big jaws, full of teeth. They are hunting a great baleen whale, one of the largest animals that has ever lived. Such life-or-death battles, between orcas and whales, have captured the popular imagination. But the truth is more complicated.

Adult humpbacks are formidable foes (credit: Christopher Michel / CC by 2.0)

*This image is copyright of its original author

For a start it has been unclear whether orcas, also known as killer whales, really hunt whales, and how often. Nor did we know how the whales themselves might react to such attacks. Now for the first time, scientists have recorded orcas attacking and killing humpback whales, specifically young calves. The results are published in the journal Marine Mammal Science. What's more, the humpback whales themselves aren't passive victims. They aggressively turn to battle the orcas, and even recruit "escort" whales to help fight off the attacks. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/mms.12182

Rare sightings

Orcas have developed a reputation for preying on baleen whales, a group that includes blue, fin and humpback whales among others. They have been recorded attempting to attack almost every species, and also sperm whales, the largest species of toothed whale. Many whales display tooth marks made by orcas on their tails and flippers, suggesting such attacks are common.

A washed-up grey whale calf marked by orca teeth (credit: DocentJoyce CC by 2.0)

*This image is copyright of its original author

But with a few notable exceptions, including times when orcas have preyed upon grey whale calves, successful attacks by orcas on whales have rarely been documented. For example, humpback whales are among the most studied large whales, being observed for countless hours at sea by scientists. More orca tooth marks are found on humpbacks than any other whale species. But until now there was no scientific record of an orca killing a humpback whale. Research over recent decades has also revealed a range of orca populations around the world, each hunting different prey using different techniques. Many don't hunt whales at all. Some orcas for example, particularly those living in northern latitudes including the North Pacific and Antarctica, only hunt fish, while others exclusively hunt seals. But now researchers have observed the action close up.

Some orcas are specialist hunters (credit: Doug Perrine / NPL)

*This image is copyright of its original author

Robert Pitman, a marine biologist based at the US National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, in La Jolla, California and colleagues from the US and Australia, tracked orcas and humpback whales off the coast of Western Australia. They observed orcas attempting 22 separate attacks on humpback whales. On 14 occasions, the orcas attacked and killed a humpback whale calf.

Orcas hunt in pods (credit: NOAA / Vancouver Aquarium)

*This image is copyright of its original author

To investigate further, the scientists attached a tracker to a female orca, which allowed them to use satellites to monitor her movements. They followed her for six days. During that time, her pod attacked eight humpback whale calves. During the seven attacks in which the researchers witnessed the outcome, the orcas killed the humpback whale calf on three occasions. That suggests that, for this population of orcas at least, humpback whales are a predictable and plentiful prey, although the orcas were only seen attacking calves and not adult whales. But the story doesn't end there.

Adult humpbacks are formidable foes (credit: Simon Ager / CC by 2.0)

*This image is copyright of its original author

Baleen whales themselves are popularly thought to be large but generally unassuming, passive creatures. Pitman's study reveals another side to their character. When chased by orcas, certain species of baleen whale are known to try to outswim their pursuers. Blue, fin and minke whales are thought to do this, sprinting at high speed so that the orcas can't keep up. On some occasions, the humpback whales seen by Pitman's team sought out protection. They swam to shallow water, nearby reefs, or even under the researchers' boats. These tactics often curtailed the attack. But at other times, the humpback whales decided to stay and fight. As the orcas approached, the mother humpback would sometimes move her calf to her side, or lift it out of the water using her head or flippers. She also blew huge breaths of air to disturb the orcas, and lunged or charged at them, slashing and slapping her tail and flippers.

Whales may thrash their tails to defend each other (credit: Liza / CC by 2.0)

*This image is copyright of its original author

Perhaps most surprising, humpback whales also have adult "escorts" that try to protect calves that are not their own, joining the mother in defending the smaller whale. These escort whales either charged at the orcas, or placed themselves between the attackers and calf, thrashing their tails and flippers. It is not yet clear whether escort whales are related to the calves and if not, how they might benefit from defending them. Despite the efforts of the mother whales and escorts, the orcas were more often than not successful in their attacks. But the presence of the escorts did reduce how many times a whale calf was killed. In light of their study, the researchers believe that orcas may congregate each year off the coast of Western Australia to prey on baby humpback whales. Humpbacks usually give birth to one calf every two years, so each calf killed is a significant loss to a mother.

I have to say, that your logic doesn´t quite open up now. Should we start to make comparisons in the way, that luckily cape buffalos and gaurs don´t have fangs and claws etc. ? And maybe then, that luckily lions aren´t 500 kg heavier and sabertooth etc.... 

Anyway whales and dolphins are in very different level what comes to intelligence than for instance sharks. So they have far better chances to defend against predators. Then again lone whale is in way bigger danger than whales in pods. Still even alone, their intelligence is superior in comparison with most other animals in sea or land or air. So when you compare for instance megalodons and humpback whales, you need to understand that difference, which has been there most likely in past too. It´s not only the size which gives benefits to big whales, it´s also intelligence making it possible to capitalize it in best possible way. Sharks don´t defend themselves in groups, they scatter in panic also when a lot of sharks. In same situation whales co-operate.

Though it's true that cetacea are smarter than sharks and fish, a fact is that sharks can be social (this has also been observed in great whites, even if rarely), and Megalodon was a huge monster with the size and teeth that could help it kill at least one orca, like how a lion has the size and teeth to kill at least one hyena, whereas a baleen whale can't do that with its mouth, though it remains to be seen whether or not a thrash of its huge tail could kill an orca, as was mentioned in the BBC article, and even lone humpbacks are brave enough to tackle pods of orcas, as mentioned by Live Science: https://www.livescience.com/55639-humpbacks-protect-when-killer-whales-attack.html#:~:text=The%20study%20found%20that%20large,animal%20the%20orca%20is%20attacking.

Sharks are nowhere near the intelligence and social behavior of whales, when looking at it how they act. When there is a danger shark reaction is "everyone takes care of him-/herself and that´s it. There are no defence formations, no communication how to change it etc. 

Talking about social sharks can be possible to some point, but it´s a far fetch to compare them to some species which are really social. Lions are in different level, when comparing sharks to lions I can´t see justification. Lions can hunt together, they are loyal and they also fight together against threat many times. For me it looks like, that you reach way too far when trying to make some new theories. Your comparisons doesn´t seem to make too much sense when looking closer.

When using lions in comparison, then it would make more sense to compare lions and orcas, which has been done by some people and big whales are more comparable with buffalos for instance. Cape buffalos can´t protect their calves and even adult ones, but they do defend themselves in groups etc. Of course talking about domination is even there questionable. There aren´t any whales which could be saying to "dominate" orcas. Orcas hunt them all, only biggest blue whales seem to be too big for them or at least too fast when fleeing. Orcas have hunted and killed whales over 20 meters long, so they have what it takes.

Socialisation among sharks (particularly great whites) is actually a complex topic that requires further research, as Martin & Martin put it, and as I showed here, hyenas manage to snatch lion cubs, even with the adult lions being present, but that doesn't mean that adult lions don't dominate hyenas: https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-great-white-shark-carcharodon-carcharias?pid=124959#pid124959