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~~Styx38~~ · 07-18-2022, 03:18 AM

(07-16-2022, 03:08 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(07-16-2022, 02:03 AM)Styx38 Wrote:
(07-13-2022, 01:43 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(07-12-2022, 11:42 PM)Styx38 Wrote:
(07-12-2022, 09:31 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(07-12-2022, 08:49 PM)Luipaard Wrote:
(07-12-2022, 03:14 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(07-12-2022, 02:49 AM)Luipaard Wrote:
(07-10-2022, 12:48 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(07-08-2022, 08:58 PM)Twico5 Wrote: Its possible that because leopards are able to stash their kills in trees easily in bandipur and kabini they get larger than leopards in other tiger reserves. Still though they are smaller than leopards living outside these reserves. Leopards in the nilgiri hills for example are the apex predator and easily appear to be larger than bandipur leopards. Tiger occurence and density does obviously affect leopard size in one way or another i dont get what youre trying to prove. Tigers steal their kills and kill leopards. As a result of this leopards also avoid large prey items that tigers tend to hunt.

A tiger is not stealing a leopard's kill in an area like this. There would be no tigers on these cliffs to begin with and a tiger couldnt chase after and catch a leopard in such terrain. There is a reason why the jawai hills dont have any tigers. Tigers arent physcially suited for the terrain. These boulder covered hills found across india are where leopards thrive, because a lot of the time there is just enough prey for leopards but without any competition.

*This image is copyright of its original author

You're getting away from what this debate was actually about and it was the claim that African Leopards were more adept arboreal cats which wasn't the case. It had more to do with the Tree differences between India and Africa.

Regardless,

Quote:Its possible that because leopards are able to stash their kills in trees easily in bandipur and kabini they get larger than leopards in other tiger reserves. Still though they are smaller than leopards living outside these reserves. Leopards in the nilgiri hills for example are the apex predator and easily appear to be larger than bandipur leopards. Tiger occurence and density does obviously affect leopard size in one way or another i dont get what youre trying to prove. Tigers steal their kills and kill leopards. As a result of this leopards also avoid large prey items that tigers tend to hunt.
Again, there isn't anything of substance to make a claim that the Leopards of the Nilgiri Hills are larger than Bandipur leopards and they certainly don't look to be so from any photos shown. Next is the fact that like your claim with Bandipur that was incorrect, the same holds true from the Nilgiri Hills which also has a healthy population of Tigers and has been constantly growing. Being an apex predator is only one factor contributing to larger size, there are many that need to coincide that would make the largest cats of a certain subspecies. Prey type/density along with climate, terrain and water are going to be far more important. This is shown anywhere in Africa where the largest Leopards will come from areas with the most prey. Why do you think that such big Leopards are frequent in the Serengeti or S. Africa yet the Lion populations there are so high? The same is going to hold true for Indian Leopards. As long as the prey density is high, the temps are cool and water is available, the Leopards will be big and healthy.

Quote:A tiger is not stealing a leopard's kill in an area like this. There would be no tigers on these cliffs to begin with and a tiger couldnt chase after and catch a leopard in such terrain. There is a reason why the jawai hills dont have any tigers. Tigers arent physcially suited for the terrain. These boulder covered hills found across india are where leopards thrive, because a lot of the time there is just enough prey for leopards but without any competition.
And a Leopard isn't making a kill in an area like that often. So what's your point?
Leopards hunt Chital and fawn of larger ungulates, where they congregate is where Tigers hunt. Leopards thrive throughout many reserves with high Tiger population just like African Leopards with high Lion populations.

@~~Luipaard~~

Quote:That's just thinking black and white, ignoring the grey part in the middle. In India there's plenty of trees large enough for leopards (and even tigers) to climb. Again that's why there's footage of leopards mating and fighting in trees. Tigers have chased leopards up a tree by climbing as well.
Who said there aren't trees to climb?

Point was that Teak/Sal trees are far less suitable to stash kills in comparison to the ones found throughout africa. This is shown generally by how rare it actually is to see a leopard in a tree in India, especially C. or N. India compared to S. India. And rare footage of Leopards fighting or mating in trees has to do with what exactly? Are you trying to compare how often it occurs between India and Africa? Obviously it's not even close. You're also not providing locations of where these Leopard instances occurred.

Quote:You purposely compared two extremes with each other to make a point. As if there are literally no trees for leopards to stash kills. But again there's evidence that says otherwise:
You show a dhole carcass in tree to prove what?
Once again, where was this and how often do we see something like this compared to Africa?

Quote:I'm not gonna debate where the most usable trees are to be found. After all we're comparing a big country to an entire continent.
No, we're comparing reserves in Africa to Reserves in India.
That's like me saying Asia is bigger than Africa so we can't compare.
These different reserves have different species of trees and depending on the location, you'll see different behaviors.

Quote:Who said there aren't trees to climb? Point was that Teak/Sal trees are far less suitable to stash kills in comparison to the ones found throughout africa.

That's not the point. Styx38 pointed out that African leopards might live a more arboreal lifestyle which is impossible to find out. First of all both subspecies have populations where such a lifestyle isn't even necessary due to their position in the food chain. Think of African leopards from Okonjima Nature Reserve in Namibia and Indian leopards from Jhalana Leopard Safari Park. Nobody brought up the thin Teak and Sal trees but you.

Quote:This is shown generally by how rare it actually is to see a leopard in a tree in India, especially C. or N. India compared to S. India. And rare footage of Leopards fighting or mating in trees has to do with what exactly?

It's not rare footage at all. A quick Google Image search will show footage of leopards mating in trees, the majority of the footage appears to have taken place in India. And now all of a sudden you start dividing India in regions? Perhaps because in southern India have a variety of trees? That's why I stated that both the African continent and India have a variation of trees in the first place. Because India isn't just filled with those thin trees like you stated initially.

Quote:You're also not providing locations of where these Leopard instances occurred.

It's impossible to tell every instance's location but lots of footage of mating leopards in a tree has been recorded in Kabini forest. The famous video of a black panther vs a leopard in a tree also took place in Kabini.

Quote:You show a dhole carcass in tree to prove what? Once again, where was this and how often do we see something like this compared to Africa?

To counter your original statement:

"There’s a big difference between the trees in Africa which are thicker with more weight bearing branches and the Sal trees in India which are thin with small branches." and "India is filled with either Teak or Sal"

That dhole carcass shows that there are trees in India which are "thick with more weight bearing branches".

Quote:No, we're comparing reserves in Africa to Reserves in India.

Then it's 100% impossible to tell which population lives a more arboreal lifestyle.

Quote:These different reserves have different species of trees and depending on the location, you'll see different behaviors.

That's true. But why try to make it seem like India is filled with thin trees in the first place?

Quote:That's not the point. Styx38 pointed out that African leopards might live a more arboreal lifestyle which is impossible to find out. First of all both subspecies have populations where such a lifestyle isn't even necessary due to their position in the food chain. Think of African leopards from Okonjima Nature Reserve in Namibia and Indian leopards from Jhalana Leopard Safari Park. Nobody brought up the thin Teak and Sal trees but you.
What are you talking about?
What do either of those places have to do with the statements made?
Also, Leopards will still use trees regardless of their "position."
Okonjima

*This image is copyright of its original author

Jhalana Leopard

*This image is copyright of its original author

And I suggest you read the discussion between me and Styx again. We both specifically were speaking on it before you decided to interject with your two cents.

Quote:It's not rare footage at all. A quick Google Image search will show footage of leopards mating in trees, the majority of the footage appears to have taken place in India. And now all of a sudden you start dividing India in regions? Perhaps because in southern India have a variety of trees? That's why I stated that both the African continent and India have a variation of trees in the first place. Because India isn't just filled with those thin trees like you stated initially.
A "quick google search" with no actual evidence provided, let alone locations of the missing evidence. *image or video*

And once again if you actually read the discussion you'd know where and in what context we're talking about and regardless whether speaking of S., C., or N. India, the Trees there will be much thinner compared to the ones mentioned in Africa. Indian Forest Tree types are very different from the African Savanah.

Quote:It's impossible to tell every instance's location but lots of footage of mating leopards in a tree has been recorded in Kabini forest. The famous video of a black panther vs a leopard in a tree also took place in Kabini.
Not really, almost all are bookmarked or famous. And kabini is of course in S. India. I'm still confused as to why you think Leopards fighting or mating in Indian Trees somehow takes away from the fact that African Tree types are much easier to scale in comparison, especially with prey.

Quote:"There’s a big difference between the trees in Africa which are thicker with more weight bearing branches and the Sal trees in India which are thin with small branches." and "India is filled with either Teak or Sal"

That dhole carcass shows that there are trees in India which are "thick with more weight bearing branches".
Once again, never once did I say it never happens, I said it's far more difficult and rare. Hence why you almost never see large carcasses hoisted in trees in Sal or Teak forest, even in S. Indian forests it's rare.

Quote:Then it's 100% impossible to tell which population lives a more arboreal lifestyle.
Exactly, which was the whole point of the discussion.
Especially when trying to claim one as more proficient when it has more to do with the trees than the cats capabilities.

Quote:What are you talking about? What do either of those places have to do with the statements made? Also, Leopards will still use trees regardless of their "position." Okonjima

It's not that hard to understand. Styx38 assumes African leopards may live a more arboreal lifestyle than Indian leopards. You assume it has nothing to do with the subspecies but rather the environment. I'd say it's impossible to find out in the first place. The Okonjima and Jhalana leopards are an example of why exactly it's impossible to find out.

What I just didn't agree with, is that India is so-called filled with thin trees only and that one is more arboreal than the other. You can't tell for sure.

Posting those photos mean nothing. You have to look at the context. Those particular leopards are relaxing in a tree. Same like East African lions who now and then rest in trees or Pantanal jaguars relaxing in a tree.

Quote:A "quick google search" with no actual evidence provided, let alone locations of the missing evidence. *image or video*

Footage of leopards mating in a tree, all found within 1 minute by quickly Googling after it:

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/videos/news/madhya-pradesh-rare-video-of-leopards-mating-on-a-tree-goes-viral/videoshow/79576336.cms
https://www.facebook.com/wcs.ind/posts/leopards-mating-photographed-by-giri-cavale-in-kabinikabini-karnataka-leopards-m/3595733487210061/
https://www.tripadvisor.co.nz/LocationPhotoDirectLink-g1152766-d1572974-i86785689-The_Bison-Nagarhole_National_Park_Kodagu_Coorg_Karnataka.html

Quote:regardless whether speaking of S., C., or N. India, the Trees there will be much thinner compared to the ones mentioned in Africa. Indian Forest Tree types are very different from the African Savanah.

Not true, there are some large trees across India that are bigger than those you mentioned. The tree in which Saya the black panther challenged Scarface, dwarfs both a sausage and marula tree:

Quote:Not really, almost all are bookmarked or famous. And kabini is of course in S. India. I'm still confused as to why you think Leopards fighting or mating in Indian Trees somehow takes away from the fact that African Tree types are much easier to scale in comparison, especially with prey.

You first stated India to be filled with thin trees like teak and/or sal which are difficult to get a kill stashed. You know that's an exaggerated statement because now you focus on northern India and central India.

Quote:Once again, never once did I say it never happens, I said it's far more difficult and rare. Hence why you almost never see large carcasses hoisted in trees in Sal or Teak forest, even in S. Indian forests it's rare.

They don't need to stash in said thin trees. There are other trees to stash them.

Quote:Exactly, which was the whole point of the discussion. Especially when trying to claim one as more proficient when it has more to do with the trees than the cats capabilities.

IMO this statement of yours perfectly describes it:

"These different reserves have different species of trees and depending on the location, you'll see different behaviors."

I wouldn't compare Indian and African leopards' arboreal lifestyle globally because again it's impossible to find out. You'll have to be more specific because for example, Central African leopards make a huge chunk of the African population and I doubt they rely on trees that much since the majority of the males living there has evolved into heavy ambush predators.

Quote:Not true, there are some large trees across India that are bigger than those you mentioned. The tree in which Saya the black panther challenged Scarface, dwarfs both a sausage and marula tree:
And you know what happens if you scroll back from that zoomed in video?

You'll see how extremely tall that tree is, the base goes up far higher than what you see in Africa which of course makes it extremely hard to carry a carcass up it. Don't confuse height with accessibility , again you apparently didn't read what was being discussed nor how the debate actually began and what was said. I.E. Styx Comparing arboreal prowess between African and Indian Species based off a video of a Leopard hunting a monkey in a Teak Tree which is far less suitable for such feats compared to African Varieties.

There's no debate here, tree stashing kills in India is far more rare than Africa and that's directly due to the tree types.
So you better understand the forest in Kabini

Until you actually see them in person I guess you just wont understand it. But it's blatantly obvious when you do.

To be fair, Leopards can hoist kills high up trees in South India.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://walkthewilderness.net/leopard-wi...-bandipur/

My argument was that Leopards will be more arboreal in Africa compared to India and other Asian countries.

This is not only due to more Monkey hunts filmed in Africa, but also the amount of tree caches.

In Kruger National Park, 84% of the kills were cached in trees due to Hyenas usurping them.

In Nagarahole, 13% of the kills were cached in trees since the Leopards could still hide them in vegetation from Tigers.

The Wild Dog and Striped Hyena density was low or zero so not much usurpation occurred in these places.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Source: Larger Carnivores of the African Savannas By Jacobus du P. Bothma, Clive Walker

In Gir National Park, Leopards cached 31 out of 328 kills in trees.

That would mean as low as 9% of their kills are stored in trees of Teak forests.

*This image is copyright of its original author

The trees were mainly Banyan trees and Tamarind trees.

"Trees such as Banyan (Ficus benghalensis) and Amli (Tamarindus indica) were used more intensively for sleeping purposes where ca. 20 direct sightings and large number of kills (n = 21 for RC leopards, n = 10 for NC leopards) were found."

source: Zehra, N., Chaudhary, R., & Khan, J. A. (2019). Ecology of Leopard (Panthera pardus fusca Meyer) in Dry Tropical Forests of Gir National Park and Sanctuary, Gujarat, India. International Journal of Ecology and Environmental Sciences, 45(3), 241-255.

As you progress into Asia, there are no mentions of tree caches in the studies.

In Thailand, Leopards never cached kills in their trees (Rabinowitz, 1989; Grassman, 1999).

There is no mention of them caching kills in trees in Primorsky Krai or North China.

There is no mention in Iran either, with one study showing they did not have trees in the arid regions.

So from these studies, this indicates the arboreality of the different Leopard subspecies.

1. African Leopards

2. South Indian Leopards / Sri Lankan Leopards

3. North / Central Indian Leopards

4. North Indian Leopards (Himalayas)

5. Indochinese Leopards

6. Amur Leopards / North Chinese Leopards

7. Persian Leopards (Caspian Forests)

8. Persian Leopards (Arid regions)
Everything there only proves my point further.
And “can stash” doesn’t mean they do it often and most certainly it’ll be much smaller prey items due to the height they need to climb.

1. I am not disputing that the trees might be thinner, but it looks to be a small part of a multitude of reasons for the lower rate of Indian Leopard caches.

In one study, Leopards cached 7 out 27 kills in the trees of Bardia National Park Nepal.

*This image is copyright of its original author

source: Odden, Morten. Tigers, leopards and their prey in Bardia National Park, Nepal. Department of Ecology and Natural Resource Management, Norwegian University of Life Sciences, 2007.

This means Leopards stashed about 25% of their kills in trees in Bardia National Park. Bardia is considered a Sal forest.

The rates are comparable to the Leopards which stashed 24.8% of their kills in the trees of the Waterberg Region (Swanepoel, 2009).

Odden (2007) also noted that the Leopard avoided Tigers in Bardia as opposed to Nagarahole, where Leopards seemed more tolerant of their larger competitors due to prey size diversity, availability of cover and tree sizes.

He gave the reason that Tigers had to compete more for mid-to-smaller with Leopards since there was a lack of large ungulates.

As in the Tigers would be more aggressive in these interspecific relationships when there was an energy deficit for Tigers due to mainly having small prey.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

So it seems Leopards hoist less in Nagarahole since the Tiger has greater access to large prey.

On the other hand, if there were more scavengers and less cover in Bardia national park, then the Leopard cache rate could reach Kruger levels.

Grassman (1999) mentions that there were no Tigers, so the Leopards did not have any reason for Leopards to hoist their kills up trees.

2. I guess the Leopards in Africa do hoist large kills compared to their Asian counterparts.

They have cached Giraffe Calves and Zebra Foals, and there is also a case of a Leopard managing to store a Kudu Cow in a tree.

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWW4ZJ0jmCw

This carcass could still be 100+ kg.

However, an Indian or Sri Lankan Leopard could still carry a similar sized Deer like an Axis Deer or a calf of a large Ungulate up a tree. I guess this could also happen in other forests of Asia.

I do not disagree with the thinness of the Sal or Teak trees being a factor.

It is just that this reason is not the main factor, nor is it even mentioned in any scientific paper

My conclusion is that Leopards are less arboreal in India and other parts of Asia due to either less competitors, less interspecific aggression due to availability of many prey sizes, and even less primates or all of the above in certain environments.

For example a Leopard in a Northern Chinese temperate forest would have virtually no use for trees if it is an apex predator, and does not have any monkeys available for predation in the area.

They could possibly mate or fight on a tree, but that could be more an instinct rather than a necessity.

Quote:This means Leopards stashed about 25% of their kills in trees in Bardia National Park. Bardia is considered a Sal forest.

It literally says "all kills except one were found on the ground"
Hair or scratch marks mean little as they possibly brought pieces up the tree to consume or hunted the animal in the trees to begin with, 5 + are tree dwellers.

Quote:The rates are comparable to the Leopards which stashed 24.8% of their kills in the trees of the Waterberg Region (Swanepoel, 2009).
And 87% were tree cached in KNP.
This study isn't about Leopards caching prey, it only states how the density of scavengers can dictate the commonality of tree caching. If Leopards in the locations mentioned in India could, they would cache far more often like they do in Africa with scavengers afoot. Waterberg is a farmland like most private reserves in S. Africa, it's large predators were pretty much exterminated so Leopards there don't need to cache the way they would in healthy eco systems.
Another important piece of information there was the study mentioning that Burkea Africana was by far the most important tree and directly correlated heavier kills needing more sturdy trees. Again this show the importance of thick and accessible trees which African plains has much better options in that regard.

Quote:Odden (2007) also noted that the Leopard avoided Tigers in Bardia as opposed to Nagarahole, where Leopards seemed more tolerant of their larger competitors due to prey size diversity, availability of cover and tree sizes.

He gave the reason that Tigers had to compete more for mid-to-smaller with Leopards since there was a lack of large ungulates.

As in the Tigers would be more aggressive in these interspecific relationships when there was an energy deficit for Tigers due to mainly having small prey.

Again this most likely has more to do with the amount of cover in S. India which as we already discussed, allows the Leopards to be more bold there since it's far easier to escape than in the Sal/Teak forests which are much harder for a leopard to remain unseen or climb.
It has not just "prey competition," Tigers eliminate Leopards when they get the chance, it doesn't matter the location. A Tiger will always chase off a Leopard, it's an inherit trait. Whether it's territory, protecting young, predation or competition, it doesn't matter, the bigger cat chases the smaller one.
If there is ample prey, cover and escape routes, the smaller cat can live and obtain large sizes even if the larger competitors are there. The perfect example is the Serengeti, there is no more predator rich place on earth yet the Leopards there are huge and live in high numbers because the prey density is 2nd to none and there are plenty of escape routes.

Quote:2. I guess the Leopards in Africa do hoist large kills compared to their Asian counterparts.

They do and for numerous reasons.
1st being the tree type, they have access to shorter and thicker limbed trees that allow them to hoist larger prey items up them. Hoisting a 100kg animal up a Teak or Sal tree that's much taller, thinner and with slimmer branches isn't possible for them. Just look at how far they have to climb up the tree just to get to the branch portion, you're talking about 3 to 4 times the distance then the branches being for worse for weight bearing adds to the difficulty.
2nd is the prey availability, you have way more prey options in the 20-150kg range that Leopards can go after.
3rd scavenger density, Africa has the most predators/scavengers on earth, if a Leopard can stash a kill, they will do so.

Quote:However, an Indian or Sri Lankan Leopard could still carry a similar sized Deer like an Axis Deer or a calf of a large Ungulate up a tree. I guess this could also happen in other forests of Asia.
Of course they can, they are no different in terms of capabilities compared to their African cousins. I was the one stating that to you originally, that was what the whole debate started on.

Quote:I do not disagree with the thinness of the Sal or Teak trees being a factor.
Sounds like we agree.

Quote:It literally says "all kills except one were found on the ground"
Hair or scratch marks mean little as they possibly brought pieces up the tree to consume or hunted the animal in the trees to begin with, 5 + are tree dwellers.

It literally says "all kills except one were found on the ground"
Hair or scratch marks mean little as they possibly brought pieces up the tree to consume or hunted the animal in the trees to begin with, 5 + are tree dwellers.

It literally says the Leopard brought the kill up, ate it its share, then brought down the kill.

No mention of a Leopard leaving unfinished chunks on the ground like you state.

"However, on 7 occasions we found hair from the kill and scratch marks in trees nearby, indicating that the leopard occassionally had cached the carcasses in trees, but left it on the ground after it was fully consumed. "

Quote:And 87% were tree cached in KNP.
This study isn't about Leopards caching prey, it only states how the density of scavengers can dictate the commonality of tree caching. If Leopards in the locations mentioned in India could, they would cache far more often like they do in Africa with scavengers afoot. Waterberg is a farmland like most private reserves in S. Africa, it's large predators were pretty much exterminated so Leopards there don't need to cache the way they would in healthy eco systems.

Yes. Which is why the closest comparison of Bardia National Park is with Welgevonden Reserve.

The Lions dominate Leopards in Welgevonden, but the Spotted Hyenas do not live there. However, there was also a high density of Brown Hyenas (Pitman et. al. 2013).

The Tigers dominate Leopards in Bardia National Park, but the Dhole and Striped Hyena were rare.

Quote:Another important piece of information there was the study mentioning that Burkea Africana was by far the most important tree and directly correlated heavier kills needing more sturdy trees. Again this show the importance of thick and accessible trees which African plains has much better options in that regard.

In India, there are several trees in these forests that Leopards can and have cached their kill in.

Some of these include Banyan tree, Tamarind, Indian Cherry, Indian Rosewood and Crocodile Bark.

Other possible trees include Acacia, False White Teak and Silver Oak.

Quote:Again this most likely has more to do with the amount of cover in S. India which as we already discussed, allows the Leopards to be more bold there since it's far easier to escape than in the Sal/Teak forests which are much harder for a leopard to remain unseen or climb.
It has not just "prey competition," Tigers eliminate Leopards when they get the chance, it doesn't matter the location. A Tiger will always chase off a Leopard, it's an inherit trait. Whether it's territory, protecting young, predation or competition, it doesn't matter, the bigger cat chases the smaller one.
If there is ample prey, cover and escape routes, the smaller cat can live and obtain large sizes even if the larger competitors are there. The perfect example is the Serengeti, there is no more predator rich place on earth yet the Leopards there are huge and live in high numbers because the prey density is 2nd to none and there are plenty of escape routes.

Yes, but if there is limited prey in Bardia national park, then there will be more aggressive interactions between Tigers and Leopards. This will lead to a higher proportion of tree caches.

Quote:2nd is the prey availability, you have way more prey options in the 20-150kg range that Leopards can go after.

3rd scavenger density, Africa has the most predators/scavengers on earth, if a Leopard can stash a kill, they will do so.

Yes. These two reasons along with cover affect the rate of Leopard caches. They have been determined in science papers.
The types of trees affecting cache cover have not been mentioned yet, so I am iffy if those really affect Leopards stashing kills.

Quote:Of course they can, they are no different in terms of capabilities compared to their African cousins. I was the one stating that to you originally, that was what the whole debate started on.

I was referring to this comment if yours.
'And “can stash” doesn’t mean they do it often and most certainly it’ll be much smaller prey items due to the height they need to climb.'

I also wanted to add I based my reply on actual photos.

You can see Leopards managing to hoist comparable sized carcasses up trees in India and Sri Lanka.

1.