Amur Tigers

[Apex Titan]

(08-08-2023, 02:47 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:

(07-06-2023, 08:41 PM)AlejoBravo96 Wrote: Hello guys, nice to greet you, thanks for sharing your photographic records and your knowledge. Now I would like to investigate a little more on the subject of the weight of the Amur tiger, since the most reliable data collection is that provided by the WCS of Russia, however they clarify that their population sample is only 60 specimens and almost all They are specimens in conflict and hence the low weights they handle. So the independent studies carried out by Slagth in 2005 and Valvert in 2015 remain as sources, but as Negans showed us, Slagth's analysis in 2005 is not even considered by the Amur tiger center, leaving Valvert as the only source. But with Dr. Feng Limin of central China's Amur confirming that huge specimens have been sighted in the northernmost reserves of China and Russia, Valvert's study is cast into doubt. Not to mention that the number of Siberian tigers has increased to almost 800 specimens. And if you review the web portals of the entities that work directly with the Amur tiger center such as: the Russian Geographical Society, President Putin's Amur Tiger Program, and even the World Organization for the Conservation of Big Cats follow maintaining in his writings the weight close to 300kg. So I would like to know what your opinion is on the matter and if you have any reliable and updated source, please share it with me. Thank you very much to all.

The team of the Siberian Tiger Project captured more than 60 specimens, however is correct that only a few of them were published. The lisf of the animals captured (adults) by them is published in the chapter 7 (Kerley et al., 2005) from the monograph (in Russian) of the Siberian tiger:

*This image is copyright of its original author

If you check the modern Amur tigers are no smaller than any lion population and of the same size of the modern/historic Bengal tigers. In fact, check this table of historic Amur tigers that were actually measured/weighed:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

This screenshots are from Heptner & Sludskii (1992) "Mammals of the Soviet Union", and you can clearly see that the body size of the modern and historic tigers is the same, the only thing that changed is the chest girth and the body mass, that is all. Of course that some of the figures in these tables may be different from they original sources, but my point is that in the body size (length, height) department, historic and modern Amur tigers are of the size size. Tiger of 4 meters long and 1.5 meters tall are just fairy tails.

Also, from the sample of adult males captured by Scientists between 1992 - 2005, only three specimens were animals in bad shape or "problematics" while all the others, males and females, were in they prime when they were captured and some of them were even captured several times, showing how much can change the body mass in time. For example, the male M-20 A.K.A. "Dale" was the biggest male captured by the Siberian Tiger Project, in his first capture it weighed 202 kg, but in his second weighed only 170 kg (full of beef) and was in not good shape, however in his third capture it rised to 205 kg (the biggest mark recorded by the team) and fully recovered. So, as you can see, they do not captured only "problematic" specimens, and that is clearly explained in my tables from 2015 (and also in the new ones from 2023 that I will publish here soon).

By the way, who is Negan? I see that you quote him/her. What did he/she said?

About this: "not even considered by the Amur tiger center". I can't judge if the scientist from The Amur Tiger Programme accepted or ignored the information gattered by the Siberian Tiger Project, but if that would be the case, that will be nonesense, as the Siberian Tiger Project gattered the BEST information about the Amur tiger ever! However, if you are going to take general date you can't take a webpage as only source and let me show you why:

This is part of the webpage of T.A.T.P:

*This image is copyright of its original author

So, they say that adult tigers usually weigh up to 300 kilogrammes (there is no reliable record of that in Russia) and accept that the heaviest tiger on record weighed 384 kilogrammes (which is an unreliable figure, based in the investigation of Dr Slaght and team of 2005). Also is interesting that they claim that a tiger can live up to 50 years (sic!) when the oldest captive tiger did not surpassed the 23 years!


However, check what the same webpage says when they interview Dr Sergei Naidenko (Russian by the way), Doctor of Biological Sciences and Lead Researcher of the Severtsov Institute of Ecology and Evolution:

*This image is copyright of its original author

What a difference, don't you think? He accepts that the Amur tiger is ONE of the largest, not "the largest" per se. He also quote that the heaviest male weighed 212 kg (recorded by them) but accept that males MAY reach 250 kg, which is correct and confirmed by at least 3 specimens hunted and recorded via reliable sources (249.5 kg, 250 kg+, 254 kg).

So, as you can see, the same websites may have "contradictions", if you want to use that word, so you should investigate more and check the original papers and do not stop only with the popular websites (Like National Geographic) or the opinion of people that do not have real evidence of what they state.

Now this really disturbed me: "But with Dr. Feng Limin of central China's Amur confirming that huge specimens have been sighted in the northernmost reserves of China and Russia, Valvert's study is cast into doubt."

What "cast into doubt" means? That is really dumb if you take in count that I did not made an study, but my paper is just a COLLECTION of records that were published by no other than the Siberian Tiger Project and The Amur Tiger Programme itselves. So, why "cast into doubt"? Are you saying that my sources, which are the people that actualy captured/measured/weighed tigers in Russia are unreliable? And by the way, did you  know when this information about Dr Feng Limin started? My last editon of my document about the weight of the Amur tigers was from 2015, so it was more than 5 years latter than this new information of Dr Limin arise, that is not "casting into doubt", for the contrary, is just showing new records, so what I need to do is just add them in my list, which is THE SAME THING THAT I HAVE DONE ALL THIS TIME with my tables. Did you see it now?

Conclution, based in facts and real/confirmed figures, no Amur tiger has been reliable recorded at 300 kg in the wild (I mean actually weighed, not estimated), the heaviest is around 270 kg in the wild (prior 1950) and 212 kg in modern records. About the tigers apparently reported by Dr Feng Limin, I still don't include them until I have full confirmation of them. Why? Because I already had problems with previous records and the old posters will remember that tiger of 220 kg published by a scientific journal that resulted to be of only 200 kg, or the other male of 250 kg presented in the official site of an Internation group of Veterinaries and other professionals, that at the end was of only 185 kg! So I will not make the same error again, when the weights will be published, or confirmed via reliable sources, then I will accept them.

We simply don't know what the true average weight is of modern Amur tigers, thats a fact. The Siberian Tiger Project research/weight samples were very limited. They conducted their research in the Primorye region. STP biologists never captured or weighed any adult tigers from the Khabarovsk region.

Just like how the Bengal tigers from Nepal, the Terai and Assam regions appear to be larger on average than the central Indian tigers, the male Amur tigers from the Khabarovsk territories also appear to be clearly larger on average than the tigers from the Primorsky territories. There are several giant male tigers from the Anyuisky National Park in the Khabarovsk region, that haven't been captured or weighed. Male tigers with heel width's of 13.5 cm or more.

The Siberian Tiger Project weight data (1992 - 2005) is outdated now. In much more recent times, especially in the Khabarovsk region, there are more and more truly huge and extremely robust looking male tigers that easily rival the largest Nepalese, Terai and Assam tigers in size. I know this judgment is based on camera trap photos/videos, but the sheer size and robustness of these large male Amur tigers is very clear to see.

Russian researchers and biologists nowadays don't use those inhumane bullshit methods that the Siberian Tiger Project used to capture tigers. In fact there's an article written by biologist Sergey Kolchin exposing the STP biologists and the harmful methods they used to capture tigers, which resulted in injuring some tigers.

All in all, no one knows the true average weight of modern Amur tigers, period. Healthy full-grown adult male tigers from various areas and regions need to be captured and weighed to determine the real average weight. I don't know why people keep referring to the Siberian Tiger Project's weight data as the "final last truth" or something. Again, their data is very limited and inconclusive. Things have changed since then! Reply