ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)

[Apex Titan]

(12-22-2023, 12:42 AM)Pckts Wrote:

(12-20-2023, 08:13 PM)Apex Titan Wrote:

(12-19-2023, 10:01 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(12-19-2023, 08:10 PM)Apex Titan Wrote: @Pckts 

Quote:A biologist doesn't mean they have first hand experience with captures or even assist in any way. 

Biologist Lukarevsky did have first-hand experience and assisted in capturing, tagging and weighing Amur tigers. He clearly stated in his message, which I posted, that he captured two large male tigers. One was a 'very large' male, but unfortunately they couldn't weigh these particular tigers for unknown reasons. Lukarevsky is one of Russia's leading big cat specialists, he's also one of the experts that studies and monitors the tiger population in Russia, and has worked with STP biologists such as Dale Miquelle, Linda Kerley and others.

Of course he's fully-aware of the weight samples/data published by the Siberian Tiger Project (1992 - 2005). In spite of this, he thinks the true average weight of wild Amur tigers is significantly higher than the average weight suggested by the inconclusive and limited data from the STP biologists. So such an expert's words says something.

Here's biologist Victor Lukarevsky (right) teaching Vladimir Putin how to capture and tag wild Amur tigers. The tiger in the picture is a juvenile male named 'Kuzya':

*This image is copyright of its original author

Feng Limin is one of China's leading field experts and biologists when it comes to the study and conservation of Amur tigers and leopards. He leads a team of field researchers / biologists and also has first-hand experience at capturing, weighing, and measuring the tracks of Amur tigers. Not only has he, more than once, measured the heel widths of some huge male tigers roaming the forests of northeast China, but he also said on video, that he personally knows of two massive male tigers that were weighed, and he confirmed that a 270 kg male tiger was weighed and the largest wild tiger he personally came into contact with weighed over 250 kg.

I don't need a written document or paper to prove this to me. I've heard it straight from the horse's mouth.

Quote:Biologist Lukarevsky did have first-hand experience and assisted in capturing, tagging and weighing Amur tigers. He clearly stated in his message, which I posted, that he captured two large male tigers. One was a 'very large' male, but unfortunately they couldn't weigh these particular tigers for unknown reasons. Lukarevsky is one of Russia's leading big cat specialists, he's also one of the experts that studies and monitors the tiger population in Russia, and has worked with STP biologists such as Dale Miquelle, Linda Kerley and others.

So if he didn't weigh them then what's the debate?

Quote:Of course he's fully-aware of the weight samples/data published by the Siberian Tiger Project (1992 - 2005). In spite of this, he thinks the true average weight of wild Amur tigers is significantly higher than the average weight suggested by the inconclusive and limited data from the STP biologists. So such an expert's words says something.

And again, if he doesn't have weights or measurements to validate that then it doesn't hold much factual truth. Especially without context of the entire discussion. 

Quote:Feng Limin is one of China's leading field experts and biologists when it comes to the study and conservation of Amur tigers and leopards. He leads a team of field researchers / biologists and also has first-hand experience at capturing, weighing, and measuring the tracks of Amur tigers. Not only has he, more than once, measured the heel widths of some huge male tigers roaming the forests of northeast China, but he also said on video, that he personally knows of two massive male tigers that were weighed, and he confirmed that a 270 kg male tiger was weighed and the largest wild tiger he personally came into contact with weighed over 250 kg.

*This image is copyright of its original author

There is a huge difference between camera traps and hands on, then actually measuring these cats and lastly logging a real data base from these measurements that allow someone to make a valid estimation. His claim is 2nd hand, there is no real evidence to support it. 

And another poster here who spoke Chinese mentioned this

"Infrared cameras and AI is used for weight and height of the Siberian Tigers"

“For example, the infrared camera can detect the tiger, and then AI will help analyze the tiger species, the weight and height, which will be marked in the database.”

"China distributes four of six extant tiger subspecies and four of nine extant leopard subspecies in the world, which requires China to establish a massive Pilot Tiger-Leopard Protected Area,” said Feng Limin, deputy director of the NFGA Amur Tiger and Amur Leopard Monitoring and Research Center."

https://asiatimes.com/2019/07/ai-tech-be...-leopards/

I will ask again,  what differences in the locations mentioned will contribute to a larger cat than the ones captured by STP?
Why are the pugmarks mentioned the same size as those cats captured?
What 1st hand proof do we have of any weight claims mentioned?

Lukarevsky never weighed those two particular "largest male" tigers that he mentioned in his message. He never said that he's never captured or weighed large male tigers before. There's a difference. 

Quote:And again, if he doesn't have weights or measurements to validate that then it doesn't hold much factual truth. Especially without context of the entire discussion. 

I see where you're coming from and you have a point. But his statement does suggest that he clearly thinks the weight data published by the Siberian Tiger Project is inconclusive, wrong and limited. Hence why he thinks the true average weight of an adult male is significantly higher.

Quote:There is a huge difference between camera traps and hands on, then actually measuring these cats and lastly logging a real data base from these measurements that allow someone to make a valid estimation. His claim is 2nd hand, there is no real evidence to support it. 

And another poster here who spoke Chinese mentioned this
"Infrared cameras and AI is used for weight and height of the Siberian Tigers"

That screen-shot you posted was from an article published back in August 2016, 8 years ago. It's almost 2024 now, things have changed since then. How do you know if Feng Limin never encountered or weighed a tiger since then?

The 250+kg and 270 kg wild male tigers were mentioned and reported in the last 2 years or so. Much more recently.

Here's Feng Limin talking about the 270 kg tiger: (Posted and translated by a Chinese person)

He was asked about the 270 kg tiger....

Feng Limin said: "Here, I will give you an accurate answer. I have personally seen a scientifically measured Amur tiger weighing 270 kg."

The reporter asked: "How much does an adult male Amur tiger weigh in the wild?"

Feng Limin said: "In fact, the largest male Amur tiger I have come across weighs over 250 kg, and then according to some literature, there are some individuals that can reach 300 kg."

Note that Feng Limin specifically said that he's "personally seen" a scientifically measured Amur tiger weighing 270 kg. So he's seen it himself.

Now, do you think that one of China's major authorities and leading tiger experts/biologists is lying?  Is Feng Limin making up fairy tales of huge 270 kg Amur tigers? Is he a reliable source?  Why did he specifically say that he's "personally seen" the 270 kg tiger?

And both videos were posted only last year in July 2022 and April 2022.

I have no reason to doubt such an expert's words. Feng Limin is a extremely reliable and credible source. Either he's lying or telling the truth, which one is it?

Quote:I will ask again,  what differences in the locations mentioned will contribute to a larger cat than the ones captured by STP?

Why are the pugmarks mentioned the same size as those cats captured?
What 1st hand proof do we have of any weight claims mentioned?

As to your 1st question, I don't know. Maybe the genetic diversity of tigers there. For some reason, it seems like the Khabarovsk region and northeast China produces large male tigers more often than the tigers from the Primorsky Krai. Genetics is very important and often overlooked by most people.

STP biologists never measured any heel widths of 13.5 cm. Biologist Gotvansky has measured the prints of some giant tigers roaming the Anyuisky National Park, larger prints than any of the tiger prints measured by the STP biologists in the Primorye region.

And I can guarantee you that the gigantic tiger "The Beast" was larger than ANY tiger captured by the STP biologists. He was very similar in size (and even longer) to a HUGE male brown bear. And his heel width (13.5 cm) was larger than all of the tigers captured, measured and weighed by the STP biologists. That says it all.

And lastly, the proof is in the videos of Feng Limin stating that he's "personally seen" an Amur tiger weighing 270 kg. Again, is he lying?

Quote:That screen-shot you posted was from an article published back in August 2016, 8 years ago. It's almost 2024 now, things have changed since then. How do you know if Feng Limin never encountered or weighed a tiger since then?

The 250+kg and 270 kg wild male tigers were mentioned and reported in the last 2 years or so. Much more recently.

Here's Feng Limin talking about the 270 kg tiger: (Posted and translated by a Chinese person)

He was asked about the 270 kg tiger....

Feng Limin said: "Here, I will give you an accurate answer. I have personally seen a scientifically measured Amur tiger weighing 270 kg."

And the article I posted is from 2019 not to mention there has been almost 0 publication or verification of any new weights. 

The 250/270kg cats again come with no proof nor first hand details.

Lastly, the translation is just that, a translation, you don't know what it implies or if it's even accurate. It was no different than when Joker Portuguese translation was skinny but that wasn't what was actually stated about him.
These are imperfect translation without any context or detail.

For instance, the article posted specifically states these cats are "measured" using AI tools to estimate dimensions and weight, so is that what he's "personally" seen? That would also be considered "scientific." You see, these are details that are lost not to mention his stated experience or lack there of certainly leaves doubt to 1st hand field measurements.

Quote:"In fact, the largest male Amur tiger I have come across weighs over 250 kg, and then according to some literature, there are some individuals that can reach 300 kg."

 
"Come across" in what sense? 
There are numerous details and specifics missing.
What happened to the 270kg mention?

Quote:Note that Feng Limin specifically said that he's "personally seen" a scientifically measured Amur tiger weighing 270 kg. So he's seen it himself.

Now, do you think that one of China's major authorities and leading tiger experts/biologists is lying?  Is Feng Limin making up fairy tales of huge 270 kg Amur tigers? Is he a reliable source?  Why did he specifically say that he's "personally seen" the 270 kg tiger?

And both videos were posted only last year in July 2022 and April 2022.

I have no reason to doubt such an expert's words. Feng Limin is a extremely reliable and credible source. Either he's lying or telling the truth, which one is it?

You again are making conclusions without providing valid proof. 
That absolute only thing provided with regards to Fengs actual experience was that he had never seen a wild tiger in person and they are measured using photo trap AI. Everything else is vague, 2nd hand and without details. Could he possible have more 1st hand knowledge, sure but that isn't provided nor does that correlate with the claims you're making.
Be careful not to confuse someone who works with wild animals as an expert in measuring and weighing wild animals. There is a vast amount of different expertise within these organizations and trying to read between the lines to come to conclusions that suit a narrative will only get you in trouble. We've seen it here time and time again, experts quoted, weights claimed, ages, sizes capture dates, all wrong no matter the source we naively determined to be reliable. 

Quote:As to your 1st question, I don't know. Maybe the genetic diversity of tigers there. For some reason, it seems like the Khabarovsk region and northeast China produces large male tigers more often than the tigers from the Primorsky Krai. Genetics is very important and often overlooked by most people.

Genetics is important but only goes so far, you see cats from the same litter that are bigger or smaller than one another. What is going to matter is Water access, Weather, Prey biomass and type and terrain, competition and so on. China, which only has a very small population will already start behind the 8 ball since the higher the density, the more likely to see bigger cats. If there is a lack of competition, usually smaller cats can maintain territories with out being pushed out by younger, healthier cats. 

Quote:STP biologists never measured any heel widths of 13.5 cm. Biologist Gotvansky has measured the prints of some giant tigers roaming the Anyuisky National Park, larger prints than any of the tiger prints measured by the STP biologists in the Primorye region.

They measured heel widths of 12.8cm and this was from an actual heel, not a pug mark in the snow. And like I've already shown, pug marks in the snow will embellish the actual size of the heel width. And mind you, that is the largest heel width they saw, that means all others were smaller and thus in the same exact range as STPs captures. 
And to dive even further, trying to correlate heel width to body weight isn't exact. For instance, you had a male with a heel width of 12cm's that weighed 166kg and another 11.5cm's that weighed 192kg, another with a width of 12cm's that weighed 175kgs and another with a width of 10cm's that weighed 180kg. 

Quote:And I can guarantee you that the gigantic tiger "The Beast" was larger than ANY tiger captured by the STP biologists. He was very similar in size (and even longer) to a HUGE male brown bear. And his heel width (13.5 cm) was larger than all of the tigers captured, measured and weighed by the STP biologists. That says it all.

No, you can't guarantee me anything since I've already shown the lack of correlation between heel size and weight as well as the difference between heel width measured first hand and from a print. 
The claim of "similar in size" means what exactly? Bears and Tigers are close in size, generally the bear will be taller while the Tiger will be longer. 

Quote:And lastly, the proof is in the videos of Feng Limin stating that he's "personally seen" an Amur tiger weighing 270 kg. Again, is he lying?

You again are making assumptions of what is claimed or meant to say. He's personally seen what?
Camera Trap images, measurements taken, darted or killed tigers, videos? What exactly has he "seen?" and what exactly did he mean when he said what he said and someone claimed to translate it correctly?

Quote:And the article I posted is from 2019 not to mention there has been almost 0 publication or verification of any new weights. 

The 250/270kg cats again come with no proof nor first hand details.

Lastly, the translation is just that, a translation, you don't know what it implies or if it's even accurate. It was no different than when Joker Portuguese translation was skinny but that wasn't what was actually stated about him.
These are imperfect translation without any context or detail.

For instance, the article posted specifically states these cats are "measured" using AI tools to estimate dimensions and weight, so is that what he's "personally" seen? That would also be considered "scientific." You see, these are details that are lost not to mention his stated experience or lack there of certainly leaves doubt to 1st hand field measurements.

No, the screen-shot (which I was referring to) of the article you posted was published in August 2016, not 2019. Look:

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

https://www.science.org/content/article/...extinction.

The 2nd article you posted was from 2019.

Feng Limin's statement about the 250/270 kg Amur tiger was accurately translated by a Chinese poster named 'goodhope', who I know. I told him to accurately translate exactly what Feng Limin said, and thats what he wrote. So yes, it is an accurate translation.

Now you want me to doubt a Chinese person who's translating his own native language?  The original youtube uploader of the video is also a Chinese person.

Quote:"Come across" in what sense? 
There are numerous details and specifics missing.
What happened to the 270kg mention?

How am I supposed to know?  I never interviewed him. Most of the time journalists never ask biologists to elaborate more.

If you want more specific details, then try contact Feng Limin yourself.

Quote:You again are making conclusions without providing valid proof. 
That absolute only thing provided with regards to Fengs actual experience was that he had never seen a wild tiger in person and they are measured using photo trap AI. Everything else is vague, 2nd hand and without details. Could he possible have more 1st hand knowledge, sure but that isn't provided nor does that correlate with the claims you're making.
Be careful not to confuse someone who works with wild animals as an expert in measuring and weighing wild animals. There is a vast amount of different expertise within these organizations and trying to read between the lines to come to conclusions that suit a narrative will only get you in trouble. We've seen it here time and time again, experts quoted, weights claimed, ages, sizes capture dates, all wrong no matter the source we naively determined to be reliable. 

Don't waffle here and answer the simple question. Is a major expert authority like Feng Limin lying about personally seeing a scientifically measured wild Amur tiger weighing 270 kg?

Like I said above, I trust the translation because I made sure it was accurately translated by a native Chinese speaker.

Why would Feng Limin say that?  If he said that he's just "heard of" a male Amur tiger weighing 270 kg, then you have a point. But he specifically said that he's "personally seen" a tiger weighing 270 kg. I can't just dismiss such an expert's words. It's not like I posted a written quote from an article, he's on VIDEO saying this. You can hear straight from the horse's mouth.

So once again, do you think Feng Limin is lying?

Quote:Genetics is important but only goes so far, you see cats from the same litter that are bigger or smaller than one another. What is going to matter is Water access, Weather, Prey biomass and type and terrain, competition and so on. China, which only has a very small population will already start behind the 8 ball since the higher the density, the more likely to see bigger cats. If there is a lack of competition, usually smaller cats can maintain territories with out being pushed out by younger, healthier cats. 

Yes, I agree with you on water access, prey biomass etc, however, that doesn't change the fact that huge male Amur tigers are being seen and traced more often in the Khabarovsk region in recent years than in the Primorye region. Take from that what you will, but based on my research (articles, reports, videos, pictures etc, I've seen), that clearly seem's to be the case.

The largest wild Amur tiger reported in recent years was from the Anyuisky National Park in the Khabarovsk region. The same national park is also home to 3 other giant male tigers.

Who were these giant male tigers reported by? Who were they tracked by? Who were they studied by? Alexey Gotvansky, a seasoned and very experienced biologist who has, more than once, measured the tracks and traces of these huge male tigers, knows which territories they occupy, and is very familiar with these particular tigers.

So despite the Primorye region having better prey density than the Khabarovsk region, the largest male tigers being seen, tracked and traced in recent years by experienced biologists and rangers, are more often reported in the Khabarovsk region. 

Why is this? Genetics?

Quote:They measured heel widths of 12.8cm and this was from an actual heel, not a pug mark in the snow. And like I've already shown, pug marks in the snow will embellish the actual size of the heel width. And mind you, that is the largest heel width they saw, that means all others were smaller and thus in the same exact range as STPs captures. 

And to dive even further, trying to correlate heel width to body weight isn't exact. For instance, you had a male with a heel width of 12cm's that weighed 166kg and another 11.5cm's that weighed 192kg, another with a width of 12cm's that weighed 175kgs and another with a width of 10cm's that weighed 180kg. 

Your argument is badly flawed. If this is the case, then the STP biologists would have measured many heel width prints of 13.5 cm from adult male tigers. Note, most of their studies on Amur tigers was by snow-tracking tigers in winter!  So how comes the large male tiger 'Dima' (206 kg) never left heel width prints of 13.5 cm in the snow?

How comes the 212 kg young adult male tiger 'Luk' never left 13.5 cm heel width prints in the snow?  If the snow usually embellish's the size of tiger tracks and is an inaccurate method of measuring tiger paw prints, then the STP biologists would have found at least quite a few heel width prints of adult male tigers measuring 13.5 cm, right? According to your logic and argument, this should have been the case, but it wasn't.

In 20 years of field research and snow-tracking tigers, the STP biologists never found or measured a SINGLE heel width of 13.5 cm left in the snow by a tiger. Not one!

So why was this particular tiger known as "The Beast" who also visually, very clearly, looked enormous in size and rivaled the size of a HUGE mature male brown bear, was leaving heel width prints of 13.5 cm in both winter and summer?

Also, according to the reports/accounts that Peter found and read, Gotvansky found and measured (in summer) even larger paw prints left by other giant male tigers.

Clearly, according to highly experienced biologists such as Batalov and Gotvansky, there's a strong correlation between the heel width and size of tigers, especially in adult males.

And what was the condition of the male tiger weighing 166 kg with a heel width of 12 cm?  And the health condition of the male tiger weighing 175 kg with a 12 cm heel width?

Quote:No, you can't guarantee me anything since I've already shown the lack of correlation between heel size and weight as well as the difference between heel width measured first hand and from a print. 

The claim of "similar in size" means what exactly? Bears and Tigers are close in size, generally the bear will be taller while the Tiger will be longer. 

Yes, I can guarantee you that, because I showed you how badly flawed your argument is.

Brown bears and Amur tigers are close in size, yes, however, that particular brown bear that the tiger "The Beast" matched in size, was stated to be a "huge", "giant" and "large" male brown bear. That isn't an ordinary adult male brown bear, it's a gigantic male who biologist Gotvansky is very familiar with.

In fact Gotvansky stated that you can't confuse that bear with anyone else because of his height and power. Add to this, Gotvansky also stated: "You can see how close the bear is to the gigantic size of a tiger."  Which implies that, despite the bear's massive size, Gotvansky still thinks the tiger was slightly larger.

Ussuri brown bears are one of the largest subspecies of brown bear on earth, with some individuals rivaling the sizes/weights of huge Kodiak and Alaskan coastal brown bears. While a huge male Amur tiger can reach 300 kg (according to historical reports/records, even more), a huge male Ussuri brown bear can weigh 400 - 600 kg and probably stand 10 ft tall.

So the fact that the tiger "The Beast" was very similar in size (referring to neck girth, skull size, forequarter size, and longer body length) to a huge male Ussuri brown bear, says something.

I know this is just my speculation, but I think it's very likely that "The Beast" weighed well over 250 kg. But we'll never know. Reply