ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)

[Apex Titan]

(12-19-2023, 10:01 PM)Pckts Wrote:

(12-19-2023, 08:10 PM)Apex Titan Wrote: @Pckts 

Quote:A biologist doesn't mean they have first hand experience with captures or even assist in any way. 

Biologist Lukarevsky did have first-hand experience and assisted in capturing, tagging and weighing Amur tigers. He clearly stated in his message, which I posted, that he captured two large male tigers. One was a 'very large' male, but unfortunately they couldn't weigh these particular tigers for unknown reasons. Lukarevsky is one of Russia's leading big cat specialists, he's also one of the experts that studies and monitors the tiger population in Russia, and has worked with STP biologists such as Dale Miquelle, Linda Kerley and others.

Of course he's fully-aware of the weight samples/data published by the Siberian Tiger Project (1992 - 2005). In spite of this, he thinks the true average weight of wild Amur tigers is significantly higher than the average weight suggested by the inconclusive and limited data from the STP biologists. So such an expert's words says something.

Here's biologist Victor Lukarevsky (right) teaching Vladimir Putin how to capture and tag wild Amur tigers. The tiger in the picture is a juvenile male named 'Kuzya':

*This image is copyright of its original author

Feng Limin is one of China's leading field experts and biologists when it comes to the study and conservation of Amur tigers and leopards. He leads a team of field researchers / biologists and also has first-hand experience at capturing, weighing, and measuring the tracks of Amur tigers. Not only has he, more than once, measured the heel widths of some huge male tigers roaming the forests of northeast China, but he also said on video, that he personally knows of two massive male tigers that were weighed, and he confirmed that a 270 kg male tiger was weighed and the largest wild tiger he personally came into contact with weighed over 250 kg.

I don't need a written document or paper to prove this to me. I've heard it straight from the horse's mouth.

Quote:Biologist Lukarevsky did have first-hand experience and assisted in capturing, tagging and weighing Amur tigers. He clearly stated in his message, which I posted, that he captured two large male tigers. One was a 'very large' male, but unfortunately they couldn't weigh these particular tigers for unknown reasons. Lukarevsky is one of Russia's leading big cat specialists, he's also one of the experts that studies and monitors the tiger population in Russia, and has worked with STP biologists such as Dale Miquelle, Linda Kerley and others.

So if he didn't weigh them then what's the debate?

Quote:Of course he's fully-aware of the weight samples/data published by the Siberian Tiger Project (1992 - 2005). In spite of this, he thinks the true average weight of wild Amur tigers is significantly higher than the average weight suggested by the inconclusive and limited data from the STP biologists. So such an expert's words says something.

And again, if he doesn't have weights or measurements to validate that then it doesn't hold much factual truth. Especially without context of the entire discussion. 

Quote:Feng Limin is one of China's leading field experts and biologists when it comes to the study and conservation of Amur tigers and leopards. He leads a team of field researchers / biologists and also has first-hand experience at capturing, weighing, and measuring the tracks of Amur tigers. Not only has he, more than once, measured the heel widths of some huge male tigers roaming the forests of northeast China, but he also said on video, that he personally knows of two massive male tigers that were weighed, and he confirmed that a 270 kg male tiger was weighed and the largest wild tiger he personally came into contact with weighed over 250 kg.

*This image is copyright of its original author

There is a huge difference between camera traps and hands on, then actually measuring these cats and lastly logging a real data base from these measurements that allow someone to make a valid estimation. His claim is 2nd hand, there is no real evidence to support it. 

And another poster here who spoke Chinese mentioned this

"Infrared cameras and AI is used for weight and height of the Siberian Tigers"

“For example, the infrared camera can detect the tiger, and then AI will help analyze the tiger species, the weight and height, which will be marked in the database.”

"China distributes four of six extant tiger subspecies and four of nine extant leopard subspecies in the world, which requires China to establish a massive Pilot Tiger-Leopard Protected Area,” said Feng Limin, deputy director of the NFGA Amur Tiger and Amur Leopard Monitoring and Research Center."

https://asiatimes.com/2019/07/ai-tech-be...-leopards/

I will ask again,  what differences in the locations mentioned will contribute to a larger cat than the ones captured by STP?
Why are the pugmarks mentioned the same size as those cats captured?
What 1st hand proof do we have of any weight claims mentioned?

Lukarevsky never weighed those two particular "largest male" tigers that he mentioned in his message. He never said that he's never captured or weighed large male tigers before. There's a difference. 

Quote:And again, if he doesn't have weights or measurements to validate that then it doesn't hold much factual truth. Especially without context of the entire discussion. 

I see where you're coming from and you have a point. But his statement does suggest that he clearly thinks the weight data published by the Siberian Tiger Project is inconclusive, wrong and limited. Hence why he thinks the true average weight of an adult male is significantly higher.

Quote:There is a huge difference between camera traps and hands on, then actually measuring these cats and lastly logging a real data base from these measurements that allow someone to make a valid estimation. His claim is 2nd hand, there is no real evidence to support it. 

And another poster here who spoke Chinese mentioned this
"Infrared cameras and AI is used for weight and height of the Siberian Tigers"

That screen-shot you posted was from an article published back in August 2016, 8 years ago. It's almost 2024 now, things have changed since then. How do you know if Feng Limin never encountered or weighed a tiger since then?

The 250+kg and 270 kg wild male tigers were mentioned and reported in the last 2 years or so. Much more recently.

Here's Feng Limin talking about the 270 kg tiger: (Posted and translated by a Chinese person)

He was asked about the 270 kg tiger....

Feng Limin said: "Here, I will give you an accurate answer. I have personally seen a scientifically measured Amur tiger weighing 270 kg."

The reporter asked: "How much does an adult male Amur tiger weigh in the wild?"

Feng Limin said: "In fact, the largest male Amur tiger I have come across weighs over 250 kg, and then according to some literature, there are some individuals that can reach 300 kg."

Note that Feng Limin specifically said that he's "personally seen" a scientifically measured Amur tiger weighing 270 kg. So he's seen it himself.

Now, do you think that one of China's major authorities and leading tiger experts/biologists is lying?  Is Feng Limin making up fairy tales of huge 270 kg Amur tigers? Is he a reliable source?  Why did he specifically say that he's "personally seen" the 270 kg tiger?

And both videos were posted only last year in July 2022 and April 2022.

I have no reason to doubt such an expert's words. Feng Limin is a extremely reliable and credible source. Either he's lying or telling the truth, which one is it?

Quote:I will ask again,  what differences in the locations mentioned will contribute to a larger cat than the ones captured by STP?

Why are the pugmarks mentioned the same size as those cats captured?
What 1st hand proof do we have of any weight claims mentioned?

As to your 1st question, I don't know. Maybe the genetic diversity of tigers there. For some reason, it seems like the Khabarovsk region and northeast China produces large male tigers more often than the tigers from the Primorsky Krai. Genetics is very important and often overlooked by most people.

STP biologists never measured any heel widths of 13.5 cm. Biologist Gotvansky has measured the prints of some giant tigers roaming the Anyuisky National Park, larger prints than any of the tiger prints measured by the STP biologists in the Primorye region.

And I can guarantee you that the gigantic tiger "The Beast" was larger than ANY tiger captured by the STP biologists. He was very similar in size (and even longer) to a HUGE male brown bear. And his heel width (13.5 cm) was larger than all of the tigers captured, measured and weighed by the STP biologists. That says it all.

And lastly, the proof is in the videos of Feng Limin stating that he's "personally seen" an Amur tiger weighing 270 kg. Again, is he lying? Reply