ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)

[peter]

APEX

Very interesting post. Good find (referring to the video) and many thanks for the summary.  

Sergey Aramilev, CEO of the Amur TIger Center, knows about the Russian Far East and the animals living in that region. He has access to good information and no doubt read everything of interest, including recent research. Another advantage is he has the opportunity to talk to people living in that region. I'm not only referring to locals who know about the forest, but also to rangers, hunters and biologists. Last but not least, he has the opportunity to go out there himself. When he offers an opinion on tigers and bears, we've no option but to listen. 

Your summary, as far as I can see, just about covers it. There are, however, two issues that could do with a bit more. One of these was addressed by Matias. There's another issue that needs to be discussed. I'm referring to the fysical and psychological differences between an average male tiger and an average male brown bear. 

Most of our readers know a few things about tigers and bears. They may have seen these animals in a zoo. If so, they would have noticed the remarkable differences between both. If a man, even one loaded with knowledge, would tell them an average adult male Amur tiger would be able to overcome an average adult male brown bear in a fight more often than not, chances are eyebrows would be frowned. If he adds even a large male brown bear, and 'large' in that region is large, wouldn't get the benefit of the doubt, a discussion would erupt. 

Aramilev addresses this issue in the video. He says confrontations between males of similar strength not seldom end in a stalemate or dispersal and adds there are exceptions to the general rule. Both have been killed in fights or perished as a result of an injury or an infection later. 

We (referring to members of forums) don't know about these incidents, because they were not documented. And those that were, lacked the details needed to get to conclusions. Aramilev, however, strongly suggests these incidents have occurred. 

Although the outcome of these incidents depend on countless factors we're not even aware of, Aramilev favours an adult male tiger more often than not, even if the male bear has a size advantage (referring to his remark about the presence of male brown bears exceeding 500 kg). 

His opinion seems to contradict his remark about the (hypothetical) outcome of a fight between males of similar strength. Explanation. Aramilev first says not a few confrontations between male tigers and male bears of similar strength result in dispersal. Later he says a male tiger is able to overcome even a male bear with a significant weight advantage. Those watching the video no doubt struggle with this conclusion, as it seems to contradict his first remark. I mean, if these decide against a fight, a male bear twice the weight of a male tiger would have a significant advantage. 

The question is if Aramilev is contradicting himself. The answer is it depends on the way you approach the issue. If size would be the only factor affecting the outcome of a fight between an adult male tiger and an adult male brown bear, the answer is affirmative. This, however, does not seem to be the case. Aramiliev clearly, and more than once, refers to other factors possibly affecting the outcome of a fight. 

Before discussing these factors, we perhaps need to address the size issue from a different perspective. Male brown bear in eastern Russia can exceed 500 kg at times. This means they're 2-3 times as heavy as an average male tiger. Case closed, one would think. But it's well known adult male tigers, in other regions of southern Asia, habitually target herbivores twice the weight of even a large male brown bear. Although not as agile as a bear, they definitely pose a risk. Tigers, however, routinely kill large animals in a very short period of time. As they gain experience, they often progress to larger animals like adult gaurs and rhinos. This development no doubt has a psychological effect over time. 

This to say tigers could have a different view about size than we have. It also means weight can't be considered as a deciding factor in the discussion about tigers and bears.    

That leaves factors like speed, agility, the ability to move efficiently, awareness and attitude (including aggression). Aramilev discusses some of them. One factor he mentioned more than once is experience. Most of us tend to overlook the real meaning of experience. 

Every adult wild big cat is a very able hunter and fighter. He only got there by killing other animals. Every time he attacks, the tiger takes a risk. If every wild male tiger would be examined after death, chances are most, if not all, of them would show severe injuries. Every now and then, a tiger is killed by one of his favourite prey animals, but those reaching adulthood (less than 30%) survived, learned and developed into a professional killer. At age 6, an average male tiger has killed at least 100 animals. Over time, he learned how and when to attack and what to do to overcome resistance as quickly as possible. This way of life resulted in an attitude needed to be able to just that time and again. Although the aggression needed to prevail in a fight is present, it doesn't mean a tiger is a mindless killing machine. Those who had the opportunity to work with captive tigers agree every adult tiger is foremost an observer, a thinking animal able to adapt to different conditions. 

If an adult male Amur tiger in his prime decides to avoid a direct confrontation with an adult male brown bear, it means the bear is a formidable opponent. If an animal like a male brown bear decides to avoid a direct confrontation with an adult male Amur tiger, it means the tiger is as formidable. This is the conclusion both male bears and male tigers got to over time.  

Those who slightly favour an adult male tiger in a bout, like Aramilev, admittedly have good reasons. My proposal is to have a closer look at them. You could consider discussing (some of) them in your summary, Apex. It will enable those interested to understand the position of men like Aramilev.    

One more thing. Aramilev's opinion and the arguments he uses are interesting. They also carry quite a bit of weight. In spite of that, it has to be added that opinions of those considered to be in the know (referring to the countless naturalists, hunters and biologists discussed in this thread) differ quite a bit. Members of forums are not the only ones unable to get to a conclusion about tigers and bears, so it seems. 

I agree, by the way, with Matias, who said your contributions in this department are interesting. Please continue, as they're appreciated by many.   

MATIAS

Many thanks for the comments. Most unfortunately, our members seemed to have missed your hint about 'Chlamyda', 'Rochelle' and 'Ochkarik' (referring to your remark about both tigers cooperating to get rid of the insatiable giant). A bit disappointing, as it is well known a male tiger and a tigress occasionally hunt together. There is, in fact, a quite recent article about tiger 'Borya' and a female hunting bears together. A joint venture is an option that can't be left out of the equasion. 

I tend to agree with your conclusion about tigers and bears. The RFE is a large region, meaning it's all but impossible to even speculate about the outcome of interactions between tigers and bears. In spite of that, a lot of research has been conducted.  

What we know is that tigers consider both Himalayan black bears (including adult males) and Ussuri brown bears (up to the size of healthy adult females) as an important, albeit often seasonal, source of food. If an experienced male tiger would be interested in a male brown bear, chances are it wouldn't take him a lot of time to find one. Not happening, say biologists. 

While male brown bears would struggle to find a male tiger, they don't really need to. Bears, to put it mildly, are quite food-orientated. This means they are interested in tiger kills. As they have a great nose, one would expect them to displace male tigers whenever it suits them. Not happening, biologists say.  

The conclusion is male tigers and male brown bears don't want to meet each other. A result of a decision? Very likely. Male tigers interested in bears select youngsters and (adult) females. Male brown bears interested in tiger kills only visit kills of young adults and females.  

Good news for those interested in discussions about the outcome of a hypothetical bout between males of similar size, but hypothetical seems to be the keyword. As far as I know, biologists never found a male brown bear killed by a male tiger (or the other way round) in the period 1992-2021. This although there have been a few 'hungry' years in that period.

TO CONCLUDE

I don't think there's much to add to what was discussed above. Wild male Amur tigers and wild male brown bear avoid each other, even in 'hungry' years. It's more than likely, as Aramilev suggested, there have been a few incidents not mentioned in books or articles, but these seem to be few and far between. The outcome of these engagements wasn't surprising: the most common victims were vulnarable individuals (young adults and tigers and bears affected by disease, injuries, starvation and/or old age). 

As to captive Amur tigers and brown bears. Amur tigers have co-existed with bears for a long time. So long, it shows in (the attitude of) most adult tigers (males and females). What I saw when both were able to see or hear each other (referring to one zoo and two facilities), was focus and aggression in most male Amur tigers and fear in most male bears. The trainers I interviewed never mixed male Amur tigers and male brown bears. Tigers always fight on their own, but it seems to be different when a bear is involved. I've heard of more than one exception in this respect. 

A trainer interviewed by a member of AVA, didn't doubt the outcome of a wrestling match between his 600-pound male grizzly and his 500-pound male Amur tigers, but added an attack from behind would result in a dead bear. I don't think he got that from a book. All trainers I interviewed only referred to their own experience.  

Beatty, however, wrote his big male Russian bear often suffered during exchanges with his Amur tigresses. He needed a big advantage to kill one of them when she, as a result of a mistake of a cagehand, fell off a pedestal right in front of the bear. The bear used the opportunity to get hold of her neck and didn't let go. Remarkable, as bears tend to bite multiple times when they attack. Beatty thought he would have been a 'goner' if he would have used that strategy with tigress 'Lil', but later changed his opinion about tigers and bears. That was after his brown bear 'Doris' (a female) had killed two tigers in seperate incidents. He omitted to add 'Doris' was as large as they come (at least twice as heavy as the male tiger she killed in self defence).

One more remark about male brown bears (allegedly) displacing male tigers from their kills without a fight (which could result in incorrect conclusions), to finish the post wouldn't be out of place. 

An animal killed and eaten by a male tiger shows very distinctive marks. Same for an animal killed and eaten by a brown bear. Those following the prints in the snow or the signals transmitted by the collar have been trained. They know their business. If they are unable to get to a clear conclusion, they say so (read the documents written by those involved in determining kills made by tigers). In the most recent study, not a single kill of a male tiger was confiscated by a male brown bear. Male brown bears and large male Himalayan black bears occasionallky displace young adult tigers and adult females, not adult male tigers. 

Biologists know if a kill changed hands and are able to figure out what happened. Read the story of a Canadian biologist who found tiger tracks near a dead bear. The bear had been killed and buried by another bear. The tiger found the kill and used it. Reply