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ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)

United States Pckts Offline
Bigcat Enthusiast
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(09-24-2020, 03:38 AM)Shadow Wrote:
(09-24-2020, 03:11 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(09-24-2020, 01:58 AM)Shadow Wrote:
(09-24-2020, 01:32 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(09-24-2020, 12:55 AM)Shadow Wrote:
(09-22-2020, 04:29 AM)Pckts Wrote: Naren Malik talking about Kanha *Mukki Zone Tigers* and the Tiger fights he's seen, Pugmark Differences, etc.


Funny enough, all Tiger fights he's seen has involved Umarpani male. 




Pugmarks "10 month old Tiger cubs are equal to Leopard Pugmarks"




Driver talking about when Yuvraj killed a Bison.
"He jumped on him, injuring his hind legs and incapacitating him. The Gaur herd came and he charged at them to run them off then went back to attacking the Bison."




The driver is the perfect example of who the true experts are, no offense to anyone who studies these animals, they contribute immensely to the conservation of big cats but it's these guys who know everything there is to know. They are the ones that drive every day with these cats and it would truly be a treasure trove if they all got together and started documenting their stories.

Then we have zoologists, like Joseph Vattakaven and these other two men here, who have spent a lot of time on the field making first hand observations. Like 4 years of time spent (Vattakaven) to study  tigers hunting success rates mentioned on the video. From 2:40-3:40. 1/25 stalks lead to success, means 4 % success rate. I think, that there are no-one with better knowledge than he has concerning it, even though these safari guides see a lot.





Also people like Karanth, Vattakaven, Schaller, Sankhala and many other zoologists have spent days and nights and long periods of times in the forests to get first hand experience, not just sitting behind the desk in the office. 

For sure these guides see a lot, but I still think, that experts are experts for a reason. They know without a doubt many stories from guides too, but they also know very well themselves too, how things are in reality. While safari guides can put some extra to some stories to entertain visitors, people like Karanth and other experts have to be more down to earth.

Things are seldom black/white, but there is are reasons why some people are considered as experts and are widely respected for their knowledge and experiences.

100% but at the end of the day after they finish their research, they leave. These guides don't they continue to work there for years and years. They are locals who lived there and any research done cannot be done without the help of these drivers/locals.
In E. Africa, your guide is going to be tribesman from one of the 4 major tribes most likely, they are going to not only have years of experience tracking these animals but their ancestors will have years of experience living side by side with these animals, the same goes for India. 
Next is the fact that these researchers like Joe, study many animals and since they have the resources to do so, they divide their time between places, for most of the guides they don't get that luxury, the are forced to stay in one place and again that leads to more experience. 
These researchers may perform studies for years on end and learn a ton but they do so with the help of these guides who were there before them and will be there after them.


"Experts"

The term "expert" is vague, what exactly makes an expert?
Are you saying schooling is what makes an expert? 
In that regards, these guides cannot hold a candle.
Or, are we talking about experience?
In that regard, no zoologist or biologist can compete.

I gave an example with Vattakaven. No-one can convince me, that some safari guides would know better tigers hunting success rates than him. There are many other things which zoologists study with time and fully aware of stories from locals and guides etc. These zoologists also without any doubt notice if there are contradictions or exaggerations, like there are time to time. 

I posted my posting, because it´s not that simple that people should believe too blindly what guides tell. They know a lot, but there are many things in which they can make only guesses like others, while people like Vattakaven can say, that they know because they used a lot of time and effort to learn.

I pointed out another point of view. This is how I see this and I trust more to information from zoologists. Naturally other people decide themselves which sources they see most reliable. But many zoologists are really determined and spend a lot of time to learn how things really are.
And how exactly would he come across a Tigers hunting success rate?
Then what does it matter the success rate in which a single Tiger hunts in for a specific period of time?

For one, he'd have to study with the guides as they would be the ones driving him, tracking the tigers and telling him which tigers are which. 
The fact that he specifically studies the success rate means little to the driver as that isn't their goal, their goal is tracking the Tiger. So when it comes to knowing real facts about the animal like: It's sex, age, lineage, preferred territory, prey preference during which time of year, how they smell, when and where a kill has been made, what the seasons contribute to the tigers behaviors, how terrain effects the animal etc. It's the tracker that would have the researcher outclassed.

I'm not sure what example you can present of people "believing a guide blindly" nor am I sure where you can present a single instance of that somehow coming back to bite anyone?
And while Vattakaven has put a lot of time in, he hasn't put nearly as much as the guides I'm referring too. 

Lastly, trust who you wish but my point is that because they don't publish a paper that they are somehow not as knowledgeable as a researcher is wrong. From my first hand experience there is no one that knows the nuisances of these big cats better. And I'd bet good money that if you spoke with any of these researchers you named, they'd give credit right away to these guides and trackers they work with.

You can watch that video and see what he says. I believe naturally, that he knows better what he is talking about than you or me. These zoologists have way more first hand experience than you will ever have. They also have met more these safari guides than you and hear more stories from them than you. So you can count on it, that I trust to them more, when talking about certain things, like weights, success rates and so on. It´s simply not possible to be at same level when experiencing things only as a tourist. I think, that people like Vattakaven and Karanth are way more competent to estimate what stories are reliable and what aren´t.

So this isn´t a debate really. I just showed, as I said, other side of the coin so to say. I happen to know how good story tellers some guides are, when they are with tourists. Without modern science and objective zoologists there would be a lot of rubbish told as real things.
When did I say that you or I or any tourist has as much knowledge as the researchers mentioned?
I said the guides/locals. But we've made our points, time to move.
Reply




Messages In This Thread
Demythologizing T16 - tigerluver - 04-12-2020, 11:14 AM
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) - Pckts - 09-24-2020, 04:08 PM
Tiger Data Bank - Apollo - 07-28-2014, 09:24 PM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - Apollo - 07-28-2014, 09:32 PM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - Apollo - 07-29-2014, 12:26 AM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - peter - 07-29-2014, 06:35 AM
Tiger recycling bin - Roflcopters - 09-04-2014, 01:06 AM
RE: Tiger recycling bin - Pckts - 09-04-2014, 01:52 AM
RE: Tiger recycling bin - Roflcopters - 09-05-2014, 12:31 AM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - Apollo - 11-15-2014, 09:37 PM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - Apollo - 11-15-2014, 10:27 PM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - Apollo - 11-15-2014, 11:03 PM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - Apollo - 02-19-2015, 10:55 PM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - GuateGojira - 02-23-2015, 11:06 AM
Status of tigers in India - Shardul - 12-20-2015, 02:53 PM
RE: Tiger Directory - Diamir2 - 10-03-2016, 03:57 AM
RE: Tiger Directory - peter - 10-03-2016, 05:52 AM
Genetics of all tiger subspecies - parvez - 07-15-2017, 12:38 PM
RE: Tiger Predation - peter - 11-11-2017, 07:38 AM
RE: Man-eaters - Wolverine - 12-03-2017, 11:00 AM
RE: Man-eaters - peter - 12-04-2017, 09:14 AM
RE: Tigers of Central India - Wolverine - 04-13-2018, 12:47 AM
RE: Tigers of Central India - qstxyz - 04-13-2018, 08:04 PM
RE: Size comparisons - peter - 07-16-2019, 04:58 AM
RE: Amur Tigers - peter - 05-20-2021, 06:43 AM
RE: Amur Tigers - Nyers - 05-21-2021, 07:32 PM
RE: Amur Tigers - peter - 05-22-2021, 07:39 AM
RE: Amur Tigers - GuateGojira - 04-06-2022, 12:29 AM
RE: Amur Tigers - tigerluver - 04-06-2022, 12:38 AM
RE: Amur Tigers - tigerluver - 04-06-2022, 08:38 AM
RE: Amur Tigers - tigerluver - 04-06-2022, 11:00 PM
RE: Amur Tigers - peter - 04-08-2022, 06:57 AM



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