There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
07-30-2020, 07:47 PM( This post was last modified: 07-31-2020, 05:44 AM by peter )
(07-30-2020, 12:23 PM)Stripedlion2 Wrote: Peter do you have a link for the study between brown bears and tigers?
STRIPEDLION
As you seem interested in both Pleistocene big cats and the relationship between tigers and bears, I decided for a summary on what we have. Before I start, it's important to realize Wildfact is a large forum. There's a lot of information in many different threads.
My first advice is to read as much as you can. The second is to contact mods when you have specific questions.
a - Bears and tigers
Bears and tigers co-exist in Sumatra, most of southeast Asia, India, Nepal, Bhutan, Sikkim, northeastern China and southeastern Russia. The best thread to find (recent) information on the way they interact is the tiger extinction thread. Unfortunately, it's a long thread that doesn't have an index. I'm working on it, but it will take some time to finish it. You have, in other words, no option but to read all pages. A crime for members interested in birds, but not too big a punishment for those interested in tigers.
b - Brown bears and tigers
If you're interested in interactions between brown bears and tigers in particular, my advice is to start with an old thread in AVA (now Tapatalk, I think): 'Male brown bears are not out of the predatory reach of male tigers if of similar size'. That thread has a lot of debates as well as good information on the way bears and tigers interact.
In 2008, the Russians started 'The Amur Tiger Programme'. The information they offer is based on observations only (no debates, that is). A must of everyone interested in bears and tigers today, I think.
The tiger extinction thread also has quite a bit of information on brown bears and tigers. Most posts are based on recent documents, but I also used information found in 'Die Säugetiere der Sowjetunion', Band III, V.G. Heptner and A.A. Sludskij (German translation, Jena, 1980), 'Der Tiger', V. Mazak (German translation, Wittenberg Lutherstadt, third edition, 1983) as well as a few others.
You can also find information in 'Carnivoraforum'. Most threads on brown bears and tigers have quite a few debates. Last but not least is 'Shaggygod'. This forum has good information on bears.
c - Pleistocene big cats
Wildfact has a number of threads dedicated to Pleistocene big cats, but you can also find information in the tiger extinction thread. Some years ago, 'Late Pleistocene Felidae remains (Mammalia, Carnivora) from Geographical Society Cave in the Russian Far East' (G.J. Baryshnikov, 2016) was discussed in that thread. Here's an overview of what I remember.
About 40,000 - 50,000 years ago, caves in southeastern Russia were used by different species of large carnivores, including lions and tigers. Although it's impossible to determine if 'cave lions' and tigers co-existed, it's clear both species used caves. The lion bones in these caves were smaller than lion bones found in western Siberia and Europe. In the Middle and Late Pleistocene, lions lost quite a bit of size in Europe and, in particular, eastern Siberia. Although they, sizewise, adapted, lions completely disappeared in the Late Pleistocene.
The tiger bones found in the Russian Far East suggest tigers living in the Russian Far East about 40,000 years ago more or less compared to today's Amur tigers. Sizewise, there was little to choose between both.
As to the size of lions and tigers in the Russian Far East in the Late Pleistocene. The lion bones found were larger than those of tigers living in that part of Asia. If they co-existed, chances are tigers, for this reason, would have avoided them. Hyenas, on the other hand, did not: evidence of their presence was found on quite many lion bones.
As to the size of male lions living in the Late Pleistocene. Carin Gross wrote 'Das Skelett des Höhlenlöwen (Panthera leo spelaea, Goldfuss, 1810) aus Siegdorf/Ldkr. Traunstein im Vergleich mit anderen Funden aus Deutschland und den Niederländen' (München, 1991 or thereabout - the thesis is undated). She concluded that cave lions in northwestern and southwestern Europe, depending on region and geological age, were 5-10% larger than today's lions. In weight, however, the difference would have been more pronounced.
Bones found in the northeastern part of China suggest both lions and tigers were larger than their relatives living in what's now the Russian Far East. This suggests the conditions in northeastern China could have been better.
d - Further reading and questions
There's an interesting article about cave lions in northeastern Russia: 'The Pleistocene lion, Panthera spelaea (Carnivora, Felidae) from Yakutia, Russia' of Baryshnikov (GF) and Boeskorov (G). It was published in Cranium (1), 2001 (pp. 7-24).
I wrote an 8-page summary of 'Late Pleistocene remains (Mammalia, Carnivora) from Geographical Society Cave in the Russian Far East' (G.F. Baryshnikov, 2016 - see above). It was posted in the tiger extinction thread in 2017.
If you have questions on Pleistocene big cats, contact GrizzlyClaws and Tigerluver.
New study on Pleistocene cave lion and hyena interaction
