There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
(02-16-2017, 10:33 AM)parvez Wrote: Sorry for posting statement but I was unable to resist myself from sharing with everyone.
The reason for black tigers may be to camaflogue during night times. It is well known that many herbivores cannot distinguish colours. To capitalize on this aspect too, they may prefer to be black. These tigers must have had low hunting success rate they must have been struggling to hunt in previous generations due to various reasons. This must have through various generations led to development of pigment responsible for black colour. With this their camaflogue during night increases with possibility of increased success rates. This is just an opinion.
That's a theory but I feel as though it can be contradicted by the recently discovered golden tabby tiger in kaziranga which essentially went the exact opposite route.
03-02-2017, 07:36 PM( This post was last modified: 03-02-2017, 07:56 PM by parvez )
(03-02-2017, 07:26 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(02-16-2017, 10:33 AM)parvez Wrote: Sorry for posting statement but I was unable to resist myself from sharing with everyone.
The reason for black tigers may be to camaflogue during night times. It is well known that many herbivores cannot distinguish colours. To capitalize on this aspect too, they may prefer to be black. These tigers must have had low hunting success rate they must have been struggling to hunt in previous generations due to various reasons. This must have through various generations led to development of pigment responsible for black colour. With this their camaflogue during night increases with possibility of increased success rates. This is just an opinion.
That's a theory but I feel as though it can be contradicted by the recently discovered golden tabby tiger in kaziranga which essentially went the exact opposite route.
I have my own opinions on that too. Kaziranga has a wide range or diverse vegetation with lots of colours. To blend in that colours for camaflogue they must have developed the pigment for golden tabby colour over generations. Of course low hunting rates must have been the case here too. Surrounding animals must have get used to colour of tiger and must be oversmarting the tigers making them hard to hunt. Tigers must have sensed it and must have gradually developed the golden tabby colour. Though this is just a theory i strongly believe i may be right.
03-02-2017, 08:14 PM( This post was last modified: 03-02-2017, 08:15 PM by Pckts )
I doubt that, kaziranga has the highest density of tigers in the world along with Corbett, they obviously thrive there.
It's habitat is similar to dudhwa and we haven't seen tabby's there. I'm also sure that simlipal shares similar habitat with other reserves in the e. Ghats, i think it's more to do with a genetic jackpot. The reason white tigers where so rare was the luck involved with producing them. Also the fact that it occurred in Bandhavgarh, a place where tigers thrive as well.
03-02-2017, 08:20 PM( This post was last modified: 03-02-2017, 08:25 PM by parvez )
Obviously tigers thrive there. But when there is increase in the tiger population, intra specific competition in tigers increases. During the times of mohan, there were continuous jungles. Bandhavgarh must not be a separate reserve. Some tigers during this competition must have been pushed to limits. Its during this time there must be scope for variations. They must have struggled in finding food. Remember that a tiger that did not establish his territory must be in stress. He must be finding territory after insane struggles. During this time, there must be lot of scope in variations. Also we must remember that only one in 15-20 hunting tries gets success. During intra specific competition that must go up in certain specimens struggling to find territory. After insane struggle, once they try to settle in, it must have provoked the production of pigment for camaflogue. The genes responsible for this may be passed on to his offspring. These offsprings are not essentially the variants. They may be carriers for this gene for pigment production. In this way, if carriers are mated from different gene pools, the dominant trait for this pigment production must produce these kind of tigers over some generations.
The more Tigers increase the more color variants you'll see, maybe location has to do with it or maybe that specific gene gets passed within a population. I'll go with the latter. There is no reason why a melanistic leopard couldn't survive in Africa but it hasn't been seen there in recent times and it seems mostly only seen in kabini, not throughout other Indian reserves. Why does the white lion only exist in kruger? It's just just a matter of luck, if the genes match up and the unique cat makes it to adulthood that helps with the passing of that unique trait.
03-02-2017, 08:44 PM( This post was last modified: 03-02-2017, 08:46 PM by parvez )
Yes, i too go with the later. I did not say that location has something to do with these kind of tigers but geographical diversity certainly has. Tigers present in certain location for generations may be producing pigments for camaflogue that is useful for hunting. They can also be produced anywhere depending on the genetic profile of the individuals present there but slightly dependant on surroundings as well.
03-14-2017, 07:26 PM( This post was last modified: 03-14-2017, 07:55 PM by parvez )
The first white tiger found was not mohan. That is interesting. http://www.lairweb.org.nz/tiger/rewa.html
Also I found that wikipedia was saying the golden tabby tiger cannot be found in the wild. I just edited it.
Quote:Disclaimer: This is a 'censored' writeup, I can't disclose certain details. And not all photos were taken during this trip. The pale fella got a lot of attention, and there were rumors of poacher gangs. So am mixing up photos from a few trips. Some people do know or can guess the location, but I would request them to stay silent.
------------------
I must have visited Nilgiri Biosphere Reserve 50 times over the last few years. This was yet another trip. Had a quick lunch. Finished packing in 15 minutes. Fuel, air checked and filled. Cameras, laptop, mobile etc. were charged in the morning. Took NH209/Kanakpura – Chamrajnagar – Gundlupet route.
Reached the resort around 5.30 pm. It was an overcast day, but there was still a little light, so spent some time enjoying the evening sights and sounds. Sambars came visiting late in the evening.
Spent the next day shooting swallows, and a few mammals. Note: not all photos were taken during that trip. The pale fella got a lot of attention, and there were rumors of poacher gangs. Some people do know or can guess the location, but I would request them to stay silent.
Nights were spent around a campfire. Crackling fire, alarm calls from outside the fence, the cold breeze, woodsmoke. Deers all around, inside the fence. Deers try to stay close to humans when there are predators roaming outside.
After a couple of days, I checked out and started driving to a different place. I was supposed to stay in a forest rest house that day. Plan was to use the FRH as a base, and explore the surrounding country, including a few trails. s. I wasn’t sure what to expect, so stopped at a small shop and bought Maggi, biscuits, candles, matchbox and plenty of water.
Waited for a while, walking around in the rain, as the guide had lunch and got ready. I had a waterproof windcheater with a hoodie, so preferred to enjoy the weather instead of staying inside.
The road was broken and slushy. And it was raining hard. After a while it became a drizzle. Went on a few tracks, had to use 4HL and 4LL in some places. There were many broken trees and branches blocking the trails.
The rain has stopped for a few minutes. Great!
(I turn a corner) What is that?!! Looks like a tiger!!! Urgh, it ran away before I could raise the camera!
I drive forward very slowly, and then stop the engine.
Wow! The tiger is peeping at us from time to time. But it looks rather different! Wish it would come out in the open and give me a clear shot. (I had to wait for a few minutes to get a clear view for a couple of seconds. This went on for a while. Had to change the AF settings on my camera to deal with the undergrowth.)
There is another tiger! And the second tiger is quite aggressive. Sibling or mom? It wants to shoo us away. It has started snarling. I can see the top half of its face from time to time. Now it is making mock charges. Best to move away. These tigers are not used to humans, let’s not stay where we are unwanted.
(I moved 500m away, and was hoping that the tigers would come down on the road. But they didn’t oblige. They went cross country through dense forest and vanished).
The pale tigers companion.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Update:The first ‘white’ tiger found here a few months ago has a brother who’s also white
The rare, pale-skinned ‘white’ tiger was spotted for the first time in the Nilgiris earlier this year by a wildlife photographer. It now turns out that this animal was not a adult. It is still part of a family, and its brother is also ‘white’, though its mother & sister have normal coats.
*This image is copyright of its original author
The family of four was sighted spending some quality time together in the Nilgiris Biosphere Reserve by M. Santhanaraman, additional government pleader for Forest departm-ent at the Madras High Court and Dr. C.P. Rajkumar, a member of the Tamil Nadu State Wildlife Board.
11-11-2017, 07:18 PM( This post was last modified: 11-11-2017, 07:29 PM by Rishi )
The Story Of Mohan, The Ancestor Of All White Bengal Tigers, Is Something Everyone Needs To Read
The White Tiger is a majestic creature, often depicted in Asian mythology as a guardian deity of one of the four directions. Scientifically, we define this condition as albinism. Due to the rarity of their occurrence, the white tiger is considered a spectacle to behold and attracts crowds the world over.
This is the story of Mohan, the white tiger raised in captivity in the court of the Maharaja of Rewa who is the ancestor of every White Bengal Tiger in existence today.
When the Maharaja found Mohan, with his three siblings and their mother during a hunting expedition, he resolved to have him at any cost. A cost paid by Mohan, whose entire family was shot down by the hunters while he was captured and kept in the court of Govindgarh.
After a year in captivity, the Maharaja decided to have Mohan bred with a Bengali Tiger named Begum in an attempt to obtain another white cub. Thrice. Needless to say, they failed each time.
In a final bid of desperation and acute disregard, they had Mohan mate with his own daughter Radha. This time, they finally succeeded. Four white cubs were born; Raja, Rani, Mohini and Sukeshi.
Raja and Rani were shipped off to the New Delhi Zoo and Mohini sold off to a German-American billionare while Sukeshi was left at Govindgarh to be a mate for Mohan. Six zoos, incuding the Bristol Zoo in England and the Cranston Zoo in Miami as well as a few private buyers, such as the American circus owner Clyde Beatty.
In fact, you would be hard pressed to find a white tiger anywhere in the world who doesn't trace some part of its ancestry to the Mohan-Radha strain. National Geographic did an article entitled "Great Zoos Of The Word" in 1970 in which they covered the story of our dear Mohan bhai in 1970. He died later that year and was laid to rest with all the due hindu rites. He was the last white tiger born in the wild.
01-03-2018, 01:24 PM( This post was last modified: 01-03-2018, 01:27 PM by parvez )
White Tiger Genetics: The Basics
*This image is copyright of its original author
White coat with blue eyes: natural genetic inheritance. The white coat/blue eyes trait of the White Tiger is caused bynormal genetic inheritance from the parents, and follows a simple Mendelian recessive pattern.
It is not caused by inbreeding.
It is not caused by spontaneous mutation.
“Recessive” does not mean faulty.
The white gene does not cause defects, it affects only the pigmentation.
This is important, because it means that:
White Tigers are not “mutant freaks”, but are a natural color variant.
You do not have to breed white tiger with white tiger to produce a white cub, or to pass the white gene on to the next generation.
The white gene can be spread throughout a population of orange tigers. This is called out-crossing or out-breeding, and the more it is done, the healthier and more diverse the gene-pool.
It is not necessary to inbreed to produce white tigers. All that is necessary is to breed together 2 tigers each of which has at least one white gene. This can produce healthy white cubs without any inbreeding at all.
Identification of the Gene Responsible for the White Coat The study “The Genetic Basis of White Tigers“, Luo et al, can be read here. It was not until 2013 that the actual gene responsible was identified – a change in a single amino acid (A477V) in one pigment-related gene, SLC45A2, that blocks the production of red/yellow pheomelanin while still allowing the black/brown melanin to be produced. This is the same gene that causes color variation in humans, horses, and chickens. The scientists concluded that it affected only pigmentation, and is a naturally occurring variant. R Prasad, “White Bengal Tiger Enigma Solved“. The Hindu, May 24 2013
Quote:“They dismiss the notion that the white tiger trait is a genetic deformity. That matured white tiger adults have been sighted in the wild negates this notion. Despite its low frequency, they emphasise that the mutation is a naturally occurring one and should be considered as a “part of genetic diversity of tigers that is worth conserving.”
Before this, there were various theories that it was caused by albinism, or the chinchilla variant. The 2013 research proved these to be false. Mendelian Recessive Inheritance Physical traits are decided by genes. Genes come in pairs, one inherited from each parent. There can be different versions of the same gene, called alleles, causing different effects – these can be either dominant or recessive. Note that “recessive” does not mean inferior or defective, it merely indicates a trait that is masked (hidden) when paired with it’s dominant allele. The tiger’s white coat/blue eyes allele is recessive – this can be written as a little “w” – with a capital “W” for the dominant orange coat. The possible gene pair combinations are WW, Ww, and ww. In order for a tiger to be white, it must have ww, a full pair of the recessive gene, one w from each parent. An orange tiger may have WW or Ww – as long as one of the pair of genes is W, ie dominant, the tiger will be orange colored.
Possible cubs from breeding white/orange tigers This gives several possible combinations for breeding, including:
One ww (white) with WW (orange) – all the cubs will be Ww (orange, but carrying the white gene).
Ww (orange carrier) with ww (white) gives a 50% chance of white cubs (2 in 4)
Two Ww (orange carriers) gives a 25% chance of a white cub (1 in 4)
Two ww (white) together – all their cubs must be ww (white)
Mutation The white gene is thought to have been caused by gene mutation at some time in the past – 100’s of years ago, or 1000’s or…. we don’t know when. This does not make the White Tiger a “mutant freak”. The genes do not spontaneously mutate every time a white tiger cub is conceived, it happens by normal genetic inheritance from the parents. Mutation is normal and necessary for evolution and genetic diversity. Gene mutations can be good, bad, or indifferent. Harmful mutations tend not to survive, but the White Tiger did indeed survive and breed in the wild for 100’s of years so we really cannot call it a harmful trait.
Quote:“Mutations are changes in the genetic sequence, and they are a main cause of diversity among organisms …mutation is one of the fundamental forces of evolution” [from Loewe, L. (2008) Genetic mutation.]
Edward J Maruska, “White Tiger: Phantom or Freak?” in “Tigers of the World”, Tilson & Seal, Ed. 1987 Noyes Publications William Conway, Director of the New York Zoological Society, made a comment back in the ’80’s referring to white tigers as “Freaks….two-headed calves and white tigers”. But Edward Maruska of Cincinnati Zoo, pointed out the error in that type of sentiment:
Quote:“Although the comment makes for interesting prose, his approach is not sound biology”
(01-03-2018, 01:24 PM)Kparvez Wrote: White Tiger Genetics: The Basics
*This image is copyright of its original author
White coat with blue eyes: natural genetic inheritance. The white coat/blue eyes trait of the White Tiger is caused bynormal genetic inheritance from the parents, and follows a simple Mendelian recessive pattern.
It is not caused by inbreeding.
It is not caused by spontaneous mutation.
“Recessive” does not mean faulty
The white gene does not cause defects, it affects only the pigmentation.
M This is important, because it means that:
White Tigers are not “mutant freaks”, but are a natural color variant.
You do not have to breed white tiger with white tiger to produce a white cub, or to pass the white gene on to the next generation.
The white gene can be spread throughout a population of orange tigers. This is called out-crossing or out-breeding, and the more it is done, the healthier and more diverse the gene-pool.
It is not necessary to inbreed to produce white tigers. All that is necessary is to breed together 2 tigers each of which has at least one white gene. This can produce healthy white cubs without any inbreeding at all.
Identification of the Gene Responsible for the White Coat The study “The Genetic Basis of White Tigers“, Luo et al, can be read here. It was not until 2013 that the actual gene responsible was identified – a change in a single amino acid (A477V) in one pigment-related gene, SLC45A2, that blocks the production of red/yellow pheomelanin while still allowing the black/brown melanin to be produced. This is the same gene that causes color variation in humans, horses, and chickens. The scientists concluded that it affected only pigmentation, and is a naturally occurring variant. R Prasad, “White Bengal Tiger Enigma Solved“. The Hindu, May 24 2013
Quote:“They dismiss the notion that the white tiger trait is a genetic deformity. That matured white tiger adults have been sighted in the wild negates this notion. Despite its low frequency, they emphasise that the mutation is a naturally occurring one and should be considered as a “part of genetic diversity of tigers that is worth conserving.”
Before this, there were various theories that it was caused by albinism, or the chinchilla variant. The 2013 research proved these to be false. Mendelian Recessive Inheritance Physical traits are decided by genes. Genes come in pairs, one inherited from each parent. There can be different versions of the same gene, called alleles, causing different effects – these can be either dominant or recessive. Note that “recessive” does not mean inferior or defective, it merely indicates a trait that is masked (hidden) when paired with it’s dominant allele. The tiger’s white coat/blue eyes allele is recessive – this can be written as a little “w” – with a capital “W” for the dominant orange coat. The possible gene pair combinations are WW, Ww, and ww. In order for a tiger to be white, it must have ww, a full pair of the recessive gene, one w from each parent. An orange tiger may have WW or Ww – as long as one of the pair of genes is W, ie dominant, the tiger will be orange colored.
Possible cubs from breeding white/orange tigers This gives several possible combinations for breeding, including:
One ww (white) with WW (orange) – all the cubs will be Ww (orange, but carrying the white gene).
Ww (orange carrier) with ww (white) gives a 50% chance of white cubs (2 in 4)
Two Ww (orange carriers) gives a 25% chance of a white cub (1 in 4)
Two ww (white) together – all their cubs must be ww (white)
Mutation The white gene is thought to have been caused by gene mutation at some time in the past – 100’s of years ago, or 1000’s or…. we don’t know when. This does not make the White Tiger a “mutant freak”. The genes do not spontaneously mutate every time a white tiger cub is conceived, it happens by normal genetic inheritance from the parents. Mutation is normal and necessary for evolution and genetic diversity. Gene mutations can be good, bad, or indifferent. Harmful mutations tend not to survive, but the White Tiger did indeed survive and breed in the wild for 100’s of years so we really cannot call it a harmful trait.
Quote:“Mutations are changes in the genetic sequence, and they are a main cause of diversity among organisms …mutation is one of the fundamental forces of evolution” [from Loewe, L. (2008) Genetic mutation.]
Edward J Maruska, “White Tiger: Phantom or Freak?” in “Tigers of the World”, Tilson & Seal, Ed. 1987 Noyes Publications William Conway, Director of the New York Zoological Society, made a comment back in the ’80’s referring to white tigers as “Freaks….two-headed calves and white tigers”. But Edward Maruska of Cincinnati Zoo, pointed out the error in that type of sentiment:
Quote:“Although the comment makes for interesting prose, his approach is not sound biology”
01-03-2018, 05:51 PM( This post was last modified: 01-03-2018, 05:57 PM by parvez )
(01-03-2018, 03:04 PM)paul cooper Wrote:
(01-03-2018, 01:24 PM)Kparvez Wrote: White Tiger Genetics: The Basics
*This image is copyright of its original author
White coat with blue eyes: natural genetic inheritance. The white coat/blue eyes trait of the White Tiger is caused bynormal genetic inheritance from the parents, and follows a simple Mendelian recessive pattern.
It is not caused by inbreeding.
It is not caused by spontaneous mutation.
“Recessive” does not mean faulty
The white gene does not cause defects, it affects only the pigmentation.
M This is important, because it means that:
White Tigers are not “mutant freaks”, but are a natural color variant.
You do not have to breed white tiger with white tiger to produce a white cub, or to pass the white gene on to the next generation.
The white gene can be spread throughout a population of orange tigers. This is called out-crossing or out-breeding, and the more it is done, the healthier and more diverse the gene-pool.
It is not necessary to inbreed to produce white tigers. All that is necessary is to breed together 2 tigers each of which has at least one white gene. This can produce healthy white cubs without any inbreeding at all.
Identification of the Gene Responsible for the White Coat The study “The Genetic Basis of White Tigers“, Luo et al, can be read here. It was not until 2013 that the actual gene responsible was identified – a change in a single amino acid (A477V) in one pigment-related gene, SLC45A2, that blocks the production of red/yellow pheomelanin while still allowing the black/brown melanin to be produced. This is the same gene that causes color variation in humans, horses, and chickens. The scientists concluded that it affected only pigmentation, and is a naturally occurring variant. R Prasad, “White Bengal Tiger Enigma Solved“. The Hindu, May 24 2013
Quote:“They dismiss the notion that the white tiger trait is a genetic deformity. That matured white tiger adults have been sighted in the wild negates this notion. Despite its low frequency, they emphasise that the mutation is a naturally occurring one and should be considered as a “part of genetic diversity of tigers that is worth conserving.”
Before this, there were various theories that it was caused by albinism, or the chinchilla variant. The 2013 research proved these to be false. Mendelian Recessive Inheritance Physical traits are decided by genes. Genes come in pairs, one inherited from each parent. There can be different versions of the same gene, called alleles, causing different effects – these can be either dominant or recessive. Note that “recessive” does not mean inferior or defective, it merely indicates a trait that is masked (hidden) when paired with it’s dominant allele. The tiger’s white coat/blue eyes allele is recessive – this can be written as a little “w” – with a capital “W” for the dominant orange coat. The possible gene pair combinations are WW, Ww, and ww. In order for a tiger to be white, it must have ww, a full pair of the recessive gene, one w from each parent. An orange tiger may have WW or Ww – as long as one of the pair of genes is W, ie dominant, the tiger will be orange colored.
Possible cubs from breeding white/orange tigers This gives several possible combinations for breeding, including:
One ww (white) with WW (orange) – all the cubs will be Ww (orange, but carrying the white gene).
Ww (orange carrier) with ww (white) gives a 50% chance of white cubs (2 in 4)
Two Ww (orange carriers) gives a 25% chance of a white cub (1 in 4)
Two ww (white) together – all their cubs must be ww (white)
Mutation The white gene is thought to have been caused by gene mutation at some time in the past – 100’s of years ago, or 1000’s or…. we don’t know when. This does not make the White Tiger a “mutant freak”. The genes do not spontaneously mutate every time a white tiger cub is conceived, it happens by normal genetic inheritance from the parents. Mutation is normal and necessary for evolution and genetic diversity. Gene mutations can be good, bad, or indifferent. Harmful mutations tend not to survive, but the White Tiger did indeed survive and breed in the wild for 100’s of years so we really cannot call it a harmful trait.
Quote:“Mutations are changes in the genetic sequence, and they are a main cause of diversity among organisms …mutation is one of the fundamental forces of evolution” [from Loewe, L. (2008) Genetic mutation.]
Edward J Maruska, “White Tiger: Phantom or Freak?” in “Tigers of the World”, Tilson & Seal, Ed. 1987 Noyes Publications William Conway, Director of the New York Zoological Society, made a comment back in the ’80’s referring to white tigers as “Freaks….two-headed calves and white tigers”. But Edward Maruska of Cincinnati Zoo, pointed out the error in that type of sentiment:
Quote:“Although the comment makes for interesting prose, his approach is not sound biology”
Not just white tigers are absolutely useless to tiger conservation, but can potentially kill all tigers.
White tigers now are seen in the wild in Nilgiris. I did not see any physical deformities in those tigers. Though wild they are thriving which indicates the absence of deformities. Otherwise they would be dead by now. But i agree to the fact that many white tigers are born out of inbreeding for commercial purposes and have deformities. Mohan the fore father of all white tigers in the world today was caught in the wild though as cub but if not caught surely would have survived in the wild. Your article is dated 2011. Mine is 2014. So, mine is the latest update. Get updated yourselves. Why you want to address me as Kparvez?
White, Black & Golden Tigers
