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Tiger Predation

United Kingdom BARKA Offline
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(11-28-2017, 08:30 PM)Rishi Wrote:
(11-28-2017, 06:18 PM)BARKA Wrote: And i've read Kerley's email, when she said "Anything can happen between Tigers and Bears"...
The emboldened part is true. Everything else you've said is an assumption...

Quote:...Tiger is a totally different beast, which is known to have attacked and killed Bull tusker Elephants and adult Rhinos.
Alone? Source please..

Quote:Even the large male Brown bears never challenge prime male Tigers over kills, never!
And how do you know that? Himalayan bear's have been recorded doing it.. successfully.. by James Edward Corbett.


The basic law of natural selection is that predators would go for the weakest. A tiger that doesn't pick fight with a Brown bear (& vice-versa) would live longer...

We have unconfirmed reports of male bears having been killed by tigers.

But what @CrysOmega meant by "we do not know the conditions of the big male bear, we do not know exactly if it was so big"..is that we don't have any follow-up info.
We don't know how old it was... We don't know if it was sick/injured... We don't know whether it was hibernating (a bear's most vulnerable state)...

A 600lb tiger wouldn't risk its life attacking a perfectly healthy 600kg bear, just so that people will sing songs about its bravery on Wildfact.

@Rishi

You're telling me, that you post all this info on Tiger threads and you're not even aware of the Tiger killing adult Elephant accounts??...Very shocking!

I suggest you go read Colonel Kesri singhs book "The Tiger of Rajasthan" where he witnessed and documented an account of a Tiger that killed an enraged Bull tusker Elephant, in Kaziranga, Assam. The accounts called "Death by a thousand cuts"....

There's other accounts of Tigers attacking and severely injuring Bull tusker Elephants too.

Tiger attacks Bull Elephant, after killing a Buffalo...and critically injuring it.
https://www.telegraphindia.com/1091226/j...908740.jsp

So you see...i'm not just talking bullshit. I've done IN-DEPTH research about Tigers and read many accounts. "A 600lb Tiger wouldn't risk it's life attacking a perfectly healthy 600kg Bear, just so that people will sing songs about it's bravery on Wildfact".....No, that's just you're assumption and speculation, not a fact. 

Here, READ THIS SOURCE! https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=WGvV...ear&source

John vaillant actually went and spent time in the Russian far-east and spoked to many locals, hunters, natives and biologists...and what did he end up finding out by them? Lets see, he clearly states that "Tigers will pick fights with Bears, prosecute the battle - as sometimes happens - to the point of tearing the bears apart, limb from limb and scattering their appendages across the battle ground"....

You're just going off the "General rule" in the wild, of predators mainly attacking the weak prey. That's not always the case! If that was, then we wouldn't have all these amazing accounts of Tigers killing over 1 ton Gaurs and Buffaloes, killing Bull elephants, adult Rhinos and large Brown bears. You clearly don't understand this. A Tiger will attack just about anything it can. Far more impressive predation and killing feats have been recorded by Tigers, then the one of the Amur Tiger killing the large male Brown bear.

If 140-150kg Tigresses have attacked and killed 1 ton Bull Gaurs, Buffaloes and even adult Crocodiles, then a massive, powerful 300kg male Tiger can easily successfully predate on a massive adult male Brown bear.

Here's a video of a large dead Brown bear, that was killed by a Tiger.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qD49KJWsk-Y
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United Kingdom BARKA Offline
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(11-28-2017, 09:29 PM)Ngala Wrote: @BARKA 

You are already been warned by Peter: tries to moderate a bit your tones and your language, this place is not a social like Facebook, so try to respect the rules and the other members, you can bring the arguments even without failing respect.

This is the second warning.

@Ngala 

I'm trying to be civilised and discuss this subject properly, but for no reason Spalea and Rishi are accusing me of "Fanboyism" when i'm clearly posting sources, references and blatant evidence that backs up my claims! I'm doing nothing wrong. They just can't handle the truth, period. Read my posts...i'm not being rude or anything. This is a "Tiger predation" thread and Amur Tigers are well known to regularly predate on Brown bears and Black bears, so i'm just posting some accounts about it, what's wrong with that??..
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India Rishi Offline
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( This post was last modified: 11-28-2017, 10:44 PM by Rishi )

@BARKA Thanks for the suggestion. Haven't read the book.. 

Having said that, you've turned your car towards getting banned, & floored the accelerator... Mend your tone & language.

Noone is shooting down your opinions. Do actually READ what other people are saying. 

For example, you've completely ignore this part:
Quote:But what @CrysOmega meant by "we do not know the conditions of the big male bear, we do not know exactly if it was so big"..is that we don't have any follow-up info.

We don't know how old it was... We don't know if it was sick/injured... We don't know whether it was hibernating (a bear's most vulnerable state)...

Your own source agrees with me that most attacks happens against hibernating bears. Now, you can't start name-calling, for me pointing out the norm from the exception.
*This image is copyright of its original author


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India sanjay Offline
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@BARKA, Choice of words is important. Spealea and Rishi  disagreed with you but the way they did, was much civilized. You have total rights to disagree and defend your statements. But language and wording is very important on WildFact. Don't use words that insult other member or sound rude or harass. You can use words like, 'I don't agree with you.... ' Or 'You are not correct..here is the reason.....'
We warn you again and this is final time, please try to understand that no one is above the forum rules.
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United Kingdom BARKA Offline
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(11-28-2017, 10:05 PM)Rishi Wrote: @BARKA Thanks for the suggestion. Haven't read the book.. 

Having said that, you've turned your car towards getting banned, & floored the accelerator... Mend your tone & language.

Noone is shooting down your opinions. Do actually READ what other people are saying. 

For example, you've completely ignore this part:
Quote:But what @CrysOmega meant by "we do not know the conditions of the big male bear, we do not know exactly if it was so big"..is that we don't have any follow-up info.

We don't know how old it was... We don't know if it was sick/injured... We don't know whether it was hibernating (a bear's most vulnerable state)...

Your own source agrees with me that most attacks happens against hibernating bears. Now, you can't start name-calling, for me pointing out the norm from the exception.
*This image is copyright of its original author



@Rishi 

No, i'm not ignoring anything. My other source clearly states that "Tigers tackle Bears, much larger then themselves" and then it explains how a Tiger predates a non-hibernating Bear. Most adult Brown bears that were killed by Tigers, were NOT taken in their dens. Go read the Brown and Black bear denning ecology article on the Siberian tiger project website. J. Goodrich and other biologists found that the adult Brown bears that were getting killed by Tigers, were all taken outside their dens. Not a single predation in a den was found.

So no, the norm is actually adult Bears are taken outside their dens. And i did read that guys post, saying that the large male Bear could have been old/sick or weak etc....and i never once said that could not be the case, however...If any Bear was old, sick, starved or weakened, it wouldn't be VERY LARGE, as was described by Yankovsky. Yankovsky clearly stated that the Bear was a very large adult male, so most likely (Not definately)....but most likely it was a large healthy specimen. And just by looking at the sheer size of that Tiger that was responsible for that carnage, it looks easily more then capable of taking on a massive male Brown bear. Remember, Vaillant said that male Tigers are very vindictive, shrewd and vengeful animals, and will even kill Bears on just principle! Not everything is about food. Maybe that Tiger had other motives as to killing that large male Bear, you never know.

You also claimed that Tigers pick on weak animals and don't attack large healthy adult Bears. But my account from L.Kerley clearly refutes that and my source from John Vaillant. Did you read that by the way??...That's a very credible source.

Maybe my tone of speaking may seem aggressive and rude, with all the caps....but i'm not trying to be. Remember, i'm posting proof for all my claims. This whole thread is about accounts of Tigers mainly killing Gaurs, Buffaloes, Deers, Boars etc...just regular herbivores, i thought it would be interesting to post some accounts of Tigers predating on Brown bears, since they are a regular prey item for Tigers. Just to make things more interesting.

As for what i said before, about large adult male Bears never challenging male Tigers over kills....i was talking about Amur Tigers and Brown bears. Not Himalayan bears and Bengal tigers! And as i recall, Corbett only witnessed ONE instance of the largest male Black bear he had ever seen, that contested a Tiger over a kill...and even in that case, the Bear got the worst of it. With the Tiger tearing off the Bears scalp!
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United Kingdom BARKA Offline
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(11-28-2017, 10:30 PM)sanjay Wrote: @BARKA, Choice of words is important. Spealea and Rishi  disagreed with you but the way they did, was much civilized. You have total rights to disagree and defend your statements. But language and wording is very important on WildFact. Don't use words that insult other member or sound rude or harass. You can use words like, 'I don't agree with you.... ' Or 'You are not correct..here is the reason.....'
We warn you again and this is final time, please try to understand that no one is above the forum rules.

@sanjay 

Alright, i got you. But i thought this forum was for people who genuinely want to learn and will accept facts, when presented to them. So when i post actual legit sources, references and evidences that back up my claims...i get accused by Spalea for spewing fables and hearsay, like i'm some little child! I know the way i put words can be offensive or seem aggressive, and i apologise for that, but come on....i'm clearly posting blatant evidence, that proves Tigers dominate adult Brown bears and they just ignorantly dispute them. That's not my fault.
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Russian Federation Diamir2 Offline
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( This post was last modified: 11-29-2017, 02:38 AM by Diamir2 )

(11-28-2017, 10:05 PM)Rishi Wrote: @BARKA Thanks for the suggestion. Haven't read the book.. 

Having said that, you've turned your car towards getting banned, & floored the accelerator... Mend your tone & language.

Noone is shooting down your opinions. Do actually READ what other people are saying. 

For example, you've completely ignore this part:
Quote:But what @CrysOmega meant by "we do not know the conditions of the big male bear, we do not know exactly if it was so big"..is that we don't have any follow-up info.

We don't know how old it was... We don't know if it was sick/injured... We don't know whether it was hibernating (a bear's most vulnerable state)...

Your own source agrees with me that most attacks happens against hibernating bears. Now, you can't start name-calling, for me pointing out the norm from the exception.
*This image is copyright of its original author


it's not quite true:" Although tigers prey on adult brown bears (Kaplanov 1948; J. Goodrich, unpublished data), we did not detect predation by tigers on denned brown bears. Brown bear selection of den site and den type may reduce risk of predation by tigers because tigers infrequently used such high elevations (J. Goodrich, Wildlife Conservation Society, unpublished data) and brown bears could likely defend the narrow tunnel at the entrance of an excavated den"
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Dale_Miquelle/publication/242275352_Denning_ecology_of_brown_bears_and_Asiatic_black_bears_in_the_Russian_Far_East/links/0f31753b78f5b05172000000/Denning-ecology-of-brown-bears-and-Asiatic-black-bears-in-the-Russian-Far-East.pdf
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United Kingdom BARKA Offline
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Account of a Bengal tiger that habitually killed Bears. Huge variety of food items found in the Tigers diet, from Snakes, turtles, lizards, Crocodiles, frogs, fish, crabs Even some winged termites, discovered by George schaller.


*This image is copyright of its original author


Another account of a habitual Bear killing Bengal tiger. And a male Tiger that killed a Buffalo in a savage fight, then himself gets killed by three other Tigers, trying to usurp his kill.


*This image is copyright of its original author


Tiger kills adult Rhino in Dudhwa Tiger reserve. Which is the third incident of a Tiger attacking an adult Rhino.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ot...357638.ece

Large Bull Gaur killed by Indo-chinese Tiger.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tqKWl8LcXY

Tigress kills large adult male Boar in a frontal attack.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YMO1FYGde0

From Last Big Cats by Erwin A. Bauer, quoted.


"Hornocker and Quigley bring their great experience with North American mountain lions to their Siberian tiger investigations. Earlier, on the White Sands Missile Range in New Mexico, Hornocker discovered that a single female cougar had acquired a taste for wild sheep and alone was endangering the desert bighorns living on the range. Recently on the Sikhote-Alin Biosphere Reserve, he and Quigley discovered a similar situation. A 400-pound (180 kg) male Siberian tiger had developed an even stranger preference for just one prey: brown bears. Although red deer and other game were readily available, this cat stalked and ate bears almost twice as heavy as itself. The biologists tracked the tiger through the snow to eight separate bear kills, all of which seemed to have been accomplished without great effort, except one. In that kill, there was evidence of a vicious battle with bits of bear hide strewn over a wide area, but the tiger had won." 


Tigress mauling a Crocodile.


*This image is copyright of its original author
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India Rishi Offline
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( This post was last modified: 11-29-2017, 09:18 AM by Rishi )

@Diamir2 Yeah, maybe you are right. Only 15 instances of predation of hibernating bears in dens, in 7 years is too low a percentage i guess.

@BARKA Tiger dominate adult brown bears, all bears they coexist with. But that doesn't stop sloth bears from charging adult tigers. (That reminds me, you'd like this thread Tiger & bear tale).

Cases vary.. Usually some tigers who have refined the art specialises in killing bears/gaurs & go for larger individuals as they gain experience.

I'll stand by Linda Kerley's statement: Anything can happen between Tigers and Bears.

Quote:A 600lb Tiger wouldn't risk it's life attacking a perfectly healthy 600kg Bear, just so that people will sing songs about it's bravery on Wildfact.
I take that one back.

Doesn't mean i agreed with yours..
Quote:Even the large male Brown bears never challenge prime male Tigers over kills, never!
If a Himalayan black could try & do that, much larger Ussuri brown, definitely would. Especially it'd have more motivation due to food scarcity.
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United Kingdom BARKA Offline
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(11-29-2017, 08:40 AM)Rishi Wrote: @Diamir2 Yeah, maybe you are right. Only 15 instances of predation of hibernating bears in dens, in 7 years is too low a percentage i guess.

@BARKA Tiger dominate adult brown bears, all bears they coexist with. But that doesn't stop sloth bears from charging adult tigers. (That reminds me, you'd like this thread Tiger & bear tale).

Cases vary.. Usually some tigers who have refined the art specialises in killing bears/gaurs & go for larger individuals as they gain experience.

I'll stand by Linda Kerley's statement: Anything can happen between Tigers and Bears.

Quote:A 600lb Tiger wouldn't risk it's life attacking a perfectly healthy 600kg Bear, just so that people will sing songs about it's bravery on Wildfact.
I take that one back.

Doesn't mean i agreed with yours..
Quote:Even the large male Brown bears never challenge prime male Tigers over kills, never!
If a Himalayan black could try & do that, much larger Ussuri brown, definitely would. Especially it'd have more motivation due to food scarcity.

@Rishi 

Thanks for suggesting the "Tiger & Bear tale"....Anyways, i've never denied the fact that Sloth bears have charged adult Tigers before, but if you read my account of the Habitual bear killing Bengal tiger above, it clearly says, in most encounters, the Bears are forced to flee! Even on youtube, there's several videos, showing Tigresses chasing away or intimidating adult male Sloth bears. Very rarely, a Sloth bear will charge an adult Tiger, they mostly rise up on two legs, try look threatening and if that doesn't work, their forced to flee because they know, they don't stand even the slightest chance. Its suicide, period.


Sub-adult male tiger kills an entire Sloth bear family, with ease: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVfi3V7XQUU

Corbett witnessed one instance, and that was the LARGEST male black bear, he had ever seen in his life....and still, the Tiger got the better of that encounter, by literally tearing off the Bears scalp. The tiger wasn't once, seriously harmed. Just like David attenborough stated, the one creature the Sloth bear fears the most, is the Tiger. I'm sure you know that, anyway.

I also never once denied a much larger Ussuri Brown bear would never challenge an adult Tiger over a kill. My point was...that there's not a single confirmed case, of even a very large male Brown bear, challenging a prime male Tiger over a kill. Here's a report stating that Bears prefer to contest the MUCH SMALLER female Tigers, lest it become an item of Tiger diet.


*This image is copyright of its original author


Large bears will challenge small Tigresses over kills, and alot of the time...they wait for the Tigress to leave the kill before they approach it. Male Tigers go uncontested for a good reason.

Even though Linda kerley stated "Anything can happen between tigers and bears".....doesn't mean one animal isn't more dominant. Some bears have killed Tigers before, and some "Satellite bears" have even followed Tigresses to usurp their kills. That's what she means. But if you look at the statistics in the wild...its overwhelmingly in the Tigers favour! Way more Bears get slaughtered then Tigers do. Even a female Tiger is very rarely killed by Bears. Kerley's even documented accounts of female Tigers hunting and killing adult male Black bears. One Tigress single-handedly killed an entire Brown bear family (Mother and 3 cubs) without ambush, with no problem.

Overall, the Amur tiger dominates both the Brown bear and black bear. Some bears even tree themselves to escape a Tigers attack, and some Tigers have even pulled Bears out of the trees to kill them. There's one source i came across, which i'm still trying to find, where another adult Brown bear was killed and another adult Brown bear, treeing itself to escape a Tiger. When i find it, i'll definately post it.

Did you read my John vaillant source??....Its one of the best books you'll ever read on a Tiger, bar none! Its literally a true story of a man-eating Amur tiger that carried out a vengeance and killed the people who harmed him. You read that book, then you'll truly find out, how vicious, savage, vindictive, shrewd and vengeful a Tiger can be. Even biologists, George schaller and Dale miquelle have read it and loved it. It also talks about Tiger and Bear relations...so you'll see just how dominant the Amur tiger is over the Bears. (The link i sent you shows that anyway).
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Pckts Offline
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Again that isn’t a “sub adult” Tiger, that was a full grown male killing the sloth bear mother and cub. He was the original kharai Ghati.
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United Kingdom BARKA Offline
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(11-29-2017, 07:32 PM)Pckts Wrote: Again that isn’t a “sub adult” Tiger, that was a full grown male killing the sloth bear mother and cub. He was the original kharai Ghati.

@Pckts 

My bad, it looks like a young male Tiger, not you're typical full-grown prime male tiger. Usually male Tigers from Kanha are huge...but that Tiger wasn't that big, it looks like a 3.5 year old male. Are you sure it was full grown??...
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( This post was last modified: 11-30-2017, 02:11 AM by Pckts )

(11-30-2017, 12:14 AM)BARKA Wrote:
(11-29-2017, 07:32 PM)Pckts Wrote: Again that isn’t a “sub adult” Tiger, that was a full grown male killing the sloth bear mother and cub. He was the original kharai Ghati.

@Pckts 

My bad, it looks like a young male Tiger, not you're typical full-grown prime male tiger. Usually male Tigers from Kanha are huge...but that Tiger wasn't that big, it looks like a 3.5 year old male. Are you sure it was full grown??...

How can you tell if that male is huge or not? It's just a video with nothing to scale him off of.
He was actually poisoned back in 2013 if I remember correctly.
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United Kingdom BARKA Offline
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(11-30-2017, 12:46 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(11-30-2017, 12:14 AM)BARKA Wrote:
(11-29-2017, 07:32 PM)Pckts Wrote: Again that isn’t a “sub adult” Tiger, that was a full grown male killing the sloth bear mother and cub. He was the original kharai Ghati.

@Pckts 

My bad, it looks like a young male Tiger, not you're typical full-grown prime male tiger. Usually male Tigers from Kanha are huge...but that Tiger wasn't that big, it looks like a 3.5 year old male. Are you sure it was full grown??...

How can you tell if that male is huge or not? It's just a video with nothing to scale him off of.
He was actually poisoned back in 2013 if I remember correctly.

@Pckts 

That tiger didn't have that typical "prime" male tiger bulk on it, so i just thought it was maybe a young one. Maybe another video of that Tiger will make it look bigger. That Tiger looked very lean. The age wasn't stated, so it could have been a young male tiger.
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Pckts Offline
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(11-30-2017, 02:24 AM)BARKA Wrote:
(11-30-2017, 12:46 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(11-30-2017, 12:14 AM)BARKA Wrote:
(11-29-2017, 07:32 PM)Pckts Wrote: Again that isn’t a “sub adult” Tiger, that was a full grown male killing the sloth bear mother and cub. He was the original kharai Ghati.

@Pckts 

My bad, it looks like a young male Tiger, not you're typical full-grown prime male tiger. Usually male Tigers from Kanha are huge...but that Tiger wasn't that big, it looks like a 3.5 year old male. Are you sure it was full grown??...

How can you tell if that male is huge or not? It's just a video with nothing to scale him off of.
He was actually poisoned back in 2013 if I remember correctly.

@Pckts 

That tiger didn't have that typical "prime" male tiger bulk on it, so i just thought it was maybe a young one. Maybe another video of that Tiger will make it look bigger. That Tiger looked very lean. The age wasn't stated, so it could have been a young male tiger.
Bulk is subjective, during the summer months they are usually much more lean, if they haven't had a meal in a while or if they are gorged all play a role. Generally when you see a lion or tiger in the wild they aren't as bulky as you think they are, tigers are a bit more stocky but both aren't these "Tanks" that we think. Many cats can be viewed in some images as being super heavy but in others they don't seem that way, a lot of factors play a role in that.
But all that being said, I don't remember KG's exact age at the time but he's on his own and has the confidence not seen in sub adults, I'd bet heavily he's over 3 easily so that would categorize him as an adult. But I agree that cats don't gain their "adulthood" until they are 5 plus, usually put on a few more Kg's and may grow a bit but nothing significant. It's their confidence that seems to grow most when they gain maturity, most likely due to testing their limits whether through hunting and/or fighting. But KG is a confident Bear killer here, not something easily obtained until older in age.
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