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The Mighty Mapogos

United States Pckts Online
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The last hurrah
Makhulu and Pretty Boy vs KNP Males
In mid 2012 not long after Mr. T's death at the hands of the Selatis, the now established and dominant KNP coalition in Southern Sabi Sands were unstoppable. The old Makhulu and Pretty Boy who had been recently ousted by the same Selatis were surrounded by 3 different coalitions around them. They ended up in the South and the last 2 remaining old Mapogos had one last hurrah in them. Makhulu would lead the last of his brothers into ONE LAST STAND.
The old Mapogos ended up in KNP territory to try one last stand and the huge KNP Males more than obliged. A clash of epic proportions came next as the 2 Mapogos fought the 2 prime KNP Males for perhaps new territory. A bloody fight took place as the old Mapogos gave it all they had but ultimately lost as the KNP Males triumphed and kept their land. In a glorious defeat the old Mapogos showed they could still bang with the best. Despite the win the KNP Males suffered a big blow. The Mapogos inflicted an injury to Limper who was suspected to have died 2 weeks later from the same injury.
Result and aftermath
The 2 Mapogos lost but they gave the younger and stronger KNP Males all they could handle and inflicted a mortal wound to one of the KNP Males, Limper. The Mapogos would then wonder off into the sunset.
The remaining KNP Male Freddy continued to reign supreme in the South but not long after their triumph his brother Limper died of his injuries sustained in the fight with the Mapogos.
by Legendary Kings


*This image is copyright of its original author
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
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Argentina Tshokwane Offline
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( This post was last modified: 05-04-2016, 01:52 AM by Tshokwane )

The interpretation that fanatic makes of what happened is wrong.

Take a look at this post from the Sabi Sabi blog, dated from April 8, 2012
LIONS AT WAR

It was still dark when we left the camp as we tried to get a head start on the sunrise and capture a few photos of dawning of a new day. As we reached the open area with a beautiful view to the east we settled in amongst a herd of zebra, switched off the vehicle and sat in complete silence waiting for the sun to peak its head over the horizon and warm our magical piece of Africa. The sounds of the dawn chorus came in from all directions immediately putting a smile on my face. Suddenly the chorus was interrupted by the unmistakable sound of lions roaring.

As the first two finished roaring another group started to roar in return and so the tennis match of territoriality began. After the sun had peaked we made our way towards where the roaring had originated and it wasn’t long before we found tracks for the Southern pride. We tracked for a while and they were eventually found moving south away from the roaring. As we sat and watched 6 of the females and all 8 cubs we could hear the roaring getting louder. The guests were focused on the lions and I was listening to the radio as some of the other vehicles were trying to find the source of the commotion. Next thing Brett called in that he had just seen one of the Mapogos running at full pace north and roaring at the top of his lungs. The Kruger males were found shortly after that and they too were roaring but their body language was completely different to the mapogo seen bolting away from the Kruger males.

When I eventually joined up with the males they were looking confident and in superb condition. They walked along the road, rubbing their heads through the trees and scent marking as they went along. Suddenly they stopped to listen and we could hear the resounding sound of more males calling in the distance. They returned fire and the sound of that awesome roar echoed through the chilly autumn air leaving my guests and I speechless. It was amazing how often they let the explode from their lungs making sure that all the competition around knew who was the boss of this land.



What happened through the night and early hours of the morning is not completely clear. From what we have pieced together the Mapogos ran into the Majengies and were chased into our reserve, here they were greeted by the belligerent Kruger males who too wanted them out as fast as possible and drove them out.

Take a look now at a different post from the same blog, dated from September 21, 2012
KRUGER MALE VS MAPOGO

Last night I was privileged to spend some time with the Southern Pride as they moved through the still of the night looking for a potential meal. The Kruger Male was following close behind and we had some great opportunities to photograph him.

He is looking great and clearly showing that he is the king of this area. Even though we didn’t hear them roaring while we were with them, I did hear them when we got back to the lodge. After dinner service I could hear the distinct call of one male lion close to the camp (KNP Male) and then 2 other males replying (Mapogos).

This morning we found the pride with no KNP male with them and Michell, after some great tracking was able to find him almost 15 kilometres away from the pride. After she had spent time with him she went down to the Sabi River for a coffee with her guests and saw the Mapogos lazing in the river about 200 metres away.

There is no doubt that there was interaction between the three males last night but from the looks of things the interaction was not physical. It is my guess that the Mapogos had heard the KNP making his way down there and decided to rather make space than face any form of confrontation. Patrick Flanagan, a guest at Earth Lodge took the photo of the 2 Mapogos below.

*This image is copyright of its original author

I will continue this analysis in the next post.
‘Like night-watchmen they patrol the dark nights; marching with intent and chasing all those unwanted into the shadows…those that do not run are removed’
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( This post was last modified: 05-04-2016, 01:58 AM by Pckts )

I'll await your next post, but how did limper die than?
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
-Oscar Wilde
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Argentina Tshokwane Offline
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Now, let's take a look at another post, this time from the Londolozi blog dated from August 30, 2012
Is the Kruger Male Lion Dead?

Two days ago (28 August) we found what we believe to be the remains of a male lion. Very little of the body remains: only a few fragments of bone, hair and the tell tale dark mane pieces, strewn about over a small area. The grass was flattened in the area suggesting that the animal had been fed on and the carcass finished off, more than likely by hyenas. A closer inspection of the area suggested that the death must have been a couple of weeks ago. There was indeed very little left and so although we can not be 100 % sure,it really does look that way!

Identifying the individual is impossible from the scare remains, but a little bit of ‘detective’ work gives us a good idea as to who it may be. The mighty two Mapogo Males were both seen alive and well a few days ago south of our boundary. This rules out it being one of them. A sighting of the Southern Pride together with the two Kruger Males over a month ago though does shed some light. Rangers reported that one of the males looked in a bad way. We had received reports of a big clash between the Kruger and Mapogo Males just a few days prior to this. On about the 20th July this male was seen again alone; this time in exceptionally poor condition. Where he lay motionless, was about 200 meters from where we found the lion remains! Since then, that Kruger Male, known by many as Limper, has not been seen by any of the lodges in the Sabi Sands. Tracker, Solly Mhlongo, aged the lion remains at 3-4 weeks old…winding back the clock and it all fits perfectly.


So we speculate that the remains we found belong to the missing and now assumed deceased Kruger Male. If it is him, he leaves behind him a single Kruger Male to rule over the large Southern Pride. The cause of his death is, and will probably remain, unknown. Again we can speculate that a run in with the Mapogo or Majingilane Coalitions may have been his downfall.

I welcome you to all comment on whether you think this may be the individual in question and the impacts this may have on not only the Southern Pride, but the entire Lion dynamics of the Sabi Sands.

So, as per this post, it's where people like the one who wrote that post in the facebook group, use to argue that the aging Mapogos killed the Limper Kruger male.

Now, what it's interesting is taking a look at the comments below the post:
It could be the Mapogos as Makulu also has some bite marks on his back and flank. However, Pretty Boy Mapogo seems to have not a single (new) scratch. Strange is that the Mapogos were not seen around these dates when Kruger males were said to be in the south of Londolozi (as per Londolozi sightings). On the other side, on 17th July it mentions “2 Majingilane male lions off Dave’s/Tu-tones Extension / Kruger male lion at Vertical Dam”

Another:
The facts in my opinion are that was a meeting between 2 Mapgos and 2 KNP males. We had witnesses . It was a short fight and there were seen 2 Knp chasing 1 Mapogo , so the Mapogos split at one point . At that moment the 2 Knp seems not carring injuries . Since that moment we know the 2 Mapogos search for each other . Makulu has wounds most likely from his meeting with knp males .

If there was a meeting lately between Makulu and Limper , we only can speculate.
In my vision the Limper died after he encounter male/s lions . Could be Majingilanes or Makulu . We simply don’t have evidences .
But is very very unlikely to be other males involved except Majingilanes or Makulu .
From here everyone could have his own theory .
On the other hand , we don’t know for sure if Limper don’t have a little injury which could affect and infect lately . The description about Limper is “this time in exceptionally poor condition.” . I meant there were signs of battles with other lions to explain his condition , or an infection could lead to such status ?

Another:
Yes, very sad news…but I have strong doubts it was Mak or PB that caused it.

Please read the pieces put together in order.
It was not Mak & PB according to the blog put out by James Tyrrell of Londolozi on July 24. You can see by the photos that Limper looked fine. (photos taken on July 14)
http://blog.londolozi.com/2012/07/a-sighting-of-the-south-pride/
The ‘fight’ with those 4 happened on July 10…then came the July 14 sighting of both KNP males looking fine July 14 but something had happened…(from the blog) ‘Blood on the nose of one of the males and a cut on a lionesses’ flank were the only clues ‘
On July 25
from Londolozi regarding sightings of Limper/KNP
I had asked James T on his blog…here is his reply.( so both were alive after July 14)
James reply:
James T July 25, 2012 at 13:34
‘The sighting took place on July 14th, but the Pride’s tracks and those of the Kruger males have been seen a number of times since then on or near our Southern Boundary.
I might go down there tomorrow morning to take a look….’

And another:
Well, I feel confident to state that the Mapogos have nothing to do with the demise of the limping KNP male. We have asked this question several times and it has been confirmed time and again: both KNP males were fit & healthy on the 14th of July, four days after they had chased around the 2 Mapogos and injured one of them, Makulu. As Syl is outlining, even after the 14th of July tracks of both KNP males have been seen in southern Londolozi.

Could an injured Makulu beat up the big KNP male with the limp? Very unlikely to say at least. Could Pretty Boy haven beaten him up? Well, Pretty Boy was searching for his comrade and he even avoided a confrontation with one of the Selati Males at one point. It could be, but is rather unlikely from my point of view. In general: to see a mature male lion being fatally injured in a one-on-one confrontation with another mature male lion is extremely rare.
If it were other lions who caused the death of the limping KNP male, it were probably the Majingilanes and surely more than one. 

Of course, we can't get dogmatic as to what exactly happened that time, because no one actually saw it. But from putting all the pieces together, it seems more likely that a big, prime male like the Limper Kruger male wasn't killed by the old Makhulu, rather some other rival coalition, like the Majingilane males(who were the other dominant males in the area).  

But what for me is sure is that the Old Mapogos weren't trying to "take over a new pride" in a "last hurra", as if they were men aware of this kind of things.

This is what bothers me about fanatism. The people in that group are fanatics of the Mapogo males, included that Jairo Reyes you've qouted in other posts, and they will go to any lenghts possible to put the Mapogos up as if they were some kind of lion gods, so I would be quite weary of the things they post.
‘Like night-watchmen they patrol the dark nights; marching with intent and chasing all those unwanted into the shadows…those that do not run are removed’
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United States Pckts Online
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Thanks for sharing, it seems as though you can make cases for multiple scenarios.
I'm not ready to rule it out or confirm it, I just think it shows that even among the the most social and viewable of the big cats, nothing is certain unless eye witnessed.
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
-Oscar Wilde
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Greece LionKiss Offline
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( This post was last modified: 05-04-2016, 04:50 PM by LionKiss )

If it were the majingilane, Freddy and Limper both would have died. 
I believe this fight was 1 vs 2, Makhulu vs Freddy and Limper. Pretty Boy did not fight.
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( This post was last modified: 05-09-2016, 11:02 AM by John21 )

(05-04-2016, 01:36 AM)Pckts Wrote: I'll await your next post, but how did limper die than?
"We had received reports of a big clash between the Kruger and Mapogo Males just a few days prior to this. On about the 20th July this male was seen again alone; this time in exceptionally poor condition. Where he lay motionless, was about 200 meters from where we found the lion remains! Since then, that Kruger Male, known by many as Limper, has not been seen by any of the lodges in the Sabi Sands. Tracker, Solly Mhlongo, aged the lion remains at 3-4 weeks old…winding back the clock and it all fits perfectly."

Brian Bannister Londolozi 

It's a bit humorous that the post you posted is regarded as fanatical. I have seen and heard some of these fans over in FB but I don't get involved much in their debates. I leave the fanatical side out of it but the moderator of this thread Majingilane is also very fanatical, the id name tells alot(Majingilane) and as I have heard of some fanatical individuals over there I have also heard he's(Majingilane) a fanatical individual himself but from the other side named Ezequiel Almeyda or Almada(either one). See what im getting at here?  So really, it just depends how hypocritical you are individually. Can't point at the bull when you also have a horn above your head. With that being said I don't really mind fanaticism or take any sides.
I agree that there are "possible" multiple scenarios as it was mentioned. But there's next to 0 evidence it was anybody else other than the Mapogos. They were the only ones to have had an altercation with the Kruger males as indicated above(at the very least Makhulu who showed injuries). 
Limper had a bum hip for some time and showed it physically. A fight even with medium injury could cause his decline in health which caused his death. 
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( This post was last modified: 05-10-2016, 01:33 AM by Pckts )

(05-09-2016, 10:43 AM)John21 Wrote:
(05-04-2016, 01:36 AM)Pckts Wrote: I'll await your next post, but how did limper die than?
"We had received reports of a big clash between the Kruger and Mapogo Males just a few days prior to this. On about the 20th July this male was seen again alone; this time in exceptionally poor condition. Where he lay motionless, was about 200 meters from where we found the lion remains! Since then, that Kruger Male, known by many as Limper, has not been seen by any of the lodges in the Sabi Sands. Tracker, Solly Mhlongo, aged the lion remains at 3-4 weeks old…winding back the clock and it all fits perfectly."

Brian Bannister Londolozi 

It's a bit humorous that the post you posted is regarded as fanatical. I have seen and heard some of these fans over in FB but I don't get involved much in their debates. I leave the fanatical side out of it but the moderator of this thread Majingilane is also very fanatical, the id name tells alot(Majingilane) and as I have heard of some fanatical individuals over there I have also heard he's(Majingilane) a fanatical individual himself but from the other side named Ezequiel Almeyda or Almada(either one). See what im getting at here?  So really, it just depends how hypocritical you are individually. Can't point at the bull when you also have a horn above your head. With that being said I don't really mind fanaticism or take any sides.
I agree that there are "possible" multiple scenarios as it was mentioned. But there's next to 0 evidence it was anybody else other than the Mapogos. They were the only ones to have had an altercation with the Kruger males as indicated above(at the very least Makhulu who showed injuries). 
Limper had a bum hip for some time and showed it physically. A fight even with medium injury could cause his decline in health which caused his death. 
I think we just stay away from the term"fanatical" in general.
I have always been upset whenever somebody uses this adjective, I think it's used as a dismal of that person's point of view. Everybody on here has some sort of fandom towards one group, specific animals or species, etc.  As long as we gather data and apply it correctly, no "fanatic" opinions should out weigh our collective gathering of data.
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
-Oscar Wilde
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Argentina Tshokwane Offline
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Quote:I leave the fanatical side out of it but the moderator of this thread Majingilane is also very fanatical, the id name tells alot(Majingilane) and as I have heard of some fanatical individuals over there I have also heard he's(Majingilane) a fanatical individual himself but from the other side named Ezequiel Almeyda or Almada(either one).
It's Almada the proper pronuntiation John, Almeyda was a soccer forward that's already retired...

I don't really see what my name has to do with anything. You may throw name calling all the time, but my position on the matter was clear and backed with proof from several posts, from different reserves, whose posts pointed at a very different idea from the one presented in the post from that group. That was the reason of the research posted, contrasted with the other ideas and possible explanations. 

Regardless of who were the culprits of the death of the Kruger male, the main goal of the research was to disprove the idiotic notion that the old Mapogo males were trying to take over a new territory in some mythical "last hurra", as it was said in the facebook post.

A final thing, John. 
This isn't facebook, it's a wildlife forum. So just because you don't like what the other person thinks or what his name is, it doesn't mean you can start throwing name calling around. That won't be tolerated here. 
You don't really have to like it, but perhaps is best to keep that kind of opinions for yourself.
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Greece LionKiss Offline
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I think it is extremely disappointing to see people to use the Lions in order to diffuse their fanaticism from their everyday activities, such as sports, football, box, martial arts.
Lions, the Mapogos, the Majingilane, others, do what their wild instincts dictate them.
I like them both but they are different, they lived a different life, they achieved different things, and therefore my opinion is different for them.
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(05-04-2016, 01:49 AM)Majingilane Wrote: This is what bothers me about fanatism. The people in that group are fanatics of the Mapogo males, included that Jairo Reyes you've qouted in other posts, and they will go to any lenghts possible to put the Mapogos up as if they were some kind of lion gods, so I would be quite weary of the things they post.

the Mapogos have done a lot of things no other coalition has done so far, and it is reasonable to have a distinct place in the History.
Why does it bother you?
SS has seen unprecedented violence, they killed 40% of the lions in SS, they controlled a huge area,
MrT and KT fought several other coalitions, even outnumbered, and won. Is not it something extraordinary.
Of course it is jungle and the stronger wins and this is what happened with the Majingilane.

There is a very sensitive point here. Some lodges feel resentment because the Mapogos killed all their lions and they had no lions to show to their guests, this was bad for their business. 
But it is nonsense to blame the Mapogos for that, animals are driven by their wild instincts, they did not do it on purpose to harm their cash flow.

As for the Majingilane, they are a normal coalition, as the most of them. They took first the East, they had cubs, then they lost the East, went to Londolozi, then they lost the Londolozi or they have no interest or the potential to occupy it again, and they moved west. Almost all big coalitions do this, some of them stay in the same place for all their lives and they are not forced to leave. The majingilane have fathered cubs, most coalitions have fathered cubs, the matimbas have fathered about the same. They are normal average coalitions.

The mapogos especially KT and MrT were always on the move to conquer and rule. This is beyond the normal attitude of all known coalitions.
And I believe for these reasons some people consider them as an extraordinary case and for the reasons I described above about the Majingilane the same people believe the Majingiane is an average normal coalition.

What extreme did Majingilane do? Could you tell me?
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United States Chris M. Offline
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(05-04-2016, 01:49 AM)Majingilane Wrote: This is what bothers me about fanatism. The people in that group are fanatics of the Mapogo males, included that Jairo Reyes you've qouted in other posts, and they will go to any lenghts possible to put the Mapogos up as if they were some kind of lion gods, so I would be quite weary of the things they post.

You want to disprove the notion that the old Mapogo males were trying to take over a new territory that’s alright but why you call people in that group are fanatics of Mapogo males? Do you really think everyone out there is fool and you are the only one who knows the fact behind? To be quite honest with you I already knew the info you posted long time ago but I just didn’t want to write any post because I hate to get involved in the debate.
 
Don’t blame everyone just because you are not welcome in the group and you got problem with someone out there; keep that hate for yourself. As a moderator, I find your comment is totally lack of respect; very unprofessional.
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Let's not get caught up on the things that don't matter, this forum is about animals not the individuals, lets keep it moving forward, these threads have tons of great info and images, lets keep it that way.
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
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Quote:the Mapogos have done a lot of things no other coalition has done so far, and it is reasonable to have a distinct place in the History.
@LionKiss
The other day, in that "Legendary kings" group, there was a post that basically said there were two classes of lions. That there were lions and then the Mapogos.

Well, to this post, there was a response from a wildlife photographer and guide, called Rudi Hulshof
Here it is:
I venture to ask what the difference is. No, I am not a hater or a troll. I just find it amusing that because the Mapogo were and remain a social media followed group of lions, they are considered Massive, Huge, Invincible, etc etc etc. their fame was simply because they were often seen and reported on by Rangers and Managers in the 65000 hectare reserve called Sabi Sands, just at the peak of Facebook Popularity. 

What about the other co-alitions that roamed the remainder of the 2 500 000 hectares of the greater Kruger National Park? I worked with and saw these Lions for a period of 4 years on an almost daily basis. Being in the industry as a guide I can confidently say I have seen similar and bigger co-alitions who would have had and had just as much impact as the Mapogo, but because they couldn't be followed on a daily basis in a wild wilderness environment, their own story couldn't be told. 

The Mapogo, had strength in numbers, but were certainly not big lions. Many Kruger Lions, especially those North of Satara are at least 10-20% larger in mass and body size. That's not even mentioning the Lions that Roam the Kalahari which are genetically far superior in size to the Kruger population. So, therefore my question, what is the difference between Mapogo and other Lions? And what's the difference between the two classes that you mention?

The answer from the one that made the post was this, something that goes along what you think LionKiss:
It's because they ruled the area for which it requires 6-7 coalitions. But they single handedly ruled it. Their strength was unmatched as they killed evry single lion came their way. To control such a huge area is not a joke! Even 6humans can't control it. So they were special and fearless. This is the difference mate.

This was Rudi's response:
Other lions do exactly the same. Just not in an area that is covered by 150 plus guides and Rangers, traversing over 2000km of road network daily. The Sabi sand makes up about 2% of the entire Kruger Eco-systemn. There are blocks within Kruger that have no roads to access for the public, but are atleast 3 times the size of the Sabi Sand. That's a single block with no road, no public viewing, and over 150 000 hectares. What do you think happens in those areas that aren't covered by guides and Rangers, Where photos and data is not fed to the public on a daily basis? The Mapogo are like the Kardashians, popular because of social media, and not because they are or were superior to any other lions.
Quote:Why does it bother you?
I'm going to post one more of his comments that answer this:
I just make the point that all lion dynamics cannot reasonably be judged by a single coalition of lions that were reported on, when there are well over 50 other coalitions present, but in areas that the general public do not get access to, and thus cannot follow daily as was possible with the Mapogo, simply because of the area they occupied.

And this is exactly the point I try to make. 

This kind of fanatism bothers me because it's irrational. It isn't based on logic, merely on emotions, kind of like people do with their favourite sport teams.
And you can't really learn anything when you don't use logic and reason.
‘Like night-watchmen they patrol the dark nights; marching with intent and chasing all those unwanted into the shadows…those that do not run are removed’
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(05-11-2016, 12:00 AM)Chris M. Wrote: why you call people in that group are fanatics of Mapogo males?   
Because that's how they behave. If they acted like that towards anything else, it would still mean they're fanatics
Quote:Do you really think everyone out there is fool and you are the only one who knows the fact behind?
First post on the forum and already a Strawman used here, saying I said or meant something I didn't even said... 
Quote:To be quite honest with you I already knew the info you posted long time ago but I just didn’t want to write any post because I hate to get involved in the debate.
That's very convenient.
Quote:Don’t blame everyone just because you are not welcome in the group and you got problem with someone out there; keep that hate for yourself.
Second Strawman. Do you have some mind reading ability that allows you to know all I think  or feel?  
Quote:As a moderator, I find your comment is totally lack of respect; very unprofessional.
That's quite the thing to say, considering you just joined the forum and are already displaying a total lack of respect, in this case toward myself. Luckily for you, I don't give a damn about what people think of me personally. 
But as I said to John in the other post, I do insist of being respectful here in the forum. What you don't like is not an excuse for being rude.
As Pckts said, this is a wildlife forum.
We're here to learn about animals as they really are, in their everyday life. That's why we can't be misguided by stories and myths propagated by some because, at the end of the day, it makes us lose focus on what's really important.
And that, in this case, it's the Mapogo males. Not the myths, but the real lions.
‘Like night-watchmen they patrol the dark nights; marching with intent and chasing all those unwanted into the shadows…those that do not run are removed’
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