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The Mighty Mapogos

United States BA0701 Offline
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(09-13-2023, 10:38 AM)Mapokser Wrote: Makhulu after defeating Mr.T again over a carcass, mid 2011:


*This image is copyright of its original author

Given this happened roughly one year before Mr. T was killed, so it makes me wonder, if he was still dominant over T, why did Big Makhulu allow Mr. T to kill all those cubs, and take control of the pride? Seems Mr T and he had a strained relationship, and T often ended up getting the worst of it most of the time. He certainly never had things easy, but it gives us better perspective on why T and KT left in the first place.
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Panama Mapokser Offline
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( This post was last modified: 09-15-2023, 10:34 AM by Mapokser )

@Ngonya The second photo I think is T, first photo I'm not completely sure.

As for who is the father, it's impossible to tell, any of the 6 can be the father of one or both, and I don't think they resemble any of their fathers strongly, their sisters also didn't.

@BA0701 Mr.T seemed to be more consistently dominant throughout 2011, but dominance changes from day to day, so sometimes the other brothers would get the upper hand. By late 2011 Leopard Hills said Mr.T was the most dominant and PB the least one.

Mr.T didn't "take over" the prides when he returned, Londolozi saw the 5 of them going east when Mr.T returned and noticed he was sidelined and submissive in the feeding frenzy when they caught a buffalo, and Leo Vantage has a video of PB and Dreadlocks asserting their dominance not allowing Mr.T near the cub or carcass:





In the video description Leo says Mr.T respected them and didn't come any closer but later found the cub and killed it when the other males weren't around.

2 cubs were killed this way, and the third one, Super Cub, was fatally injured by Mr.T in a feeding frenzy.

So it's not like Mr.T showed up, forced his brothers into submission and killed their cubs in front of them as the documentary suggests.

Mr.T played it smart, being submissive until he realized he wouldn't get rejected by the coalition, and once the cubs were dead and they were competing for mating rights, he wasn't dominating the competition, sometimes he'd win ( like in the video where he confronts Makhuku and fights PB ) and sometimes lose. There's a even a report of Makhuku and him competing at that time and Makhulu was more dominant:


*This image is copyright of its original author


When Mr.T returns the most dominant was probably Dreadlocks since posters at that time regarded Makhulu and he as the most dominant and a WildEarth ranger in early 2009 watching both groups of Mapogo together in Djuma said the coalition had 2 dominant males, first Makhulu and second "the one with the snipped tail", saying when there were females in estrus, these were the 2 they usually saw competing for the females and during most of the time they were the ones mating, so when Makhulu aged in 2010 Dreadlocks probably climbed to first place.

Though it's like I said, with Mapogos, not even the most consistently dominant will win all the time, dominance changed from day to day, even PB who was the least dominant of the western Mapogos and least dominant at the end of their reign, has been seen dominating Dreadlocks.

I don't think Mr.T and Makhulu had a strained relationship, Rob said they weren't close but this was no surprise, back in the day Makhulu was older and stronger, the others couldn't compete so they even split in 2007, the 5 weren't seen with Makhulu anymore as Ulusaba reports, they killed his Othawa cubs and would move throughout eastern SS a lot looking for opportunities. Then when they "reformed" the coalition again later in 2007 it didn't take long for Mr.T and KT to split.

When Mr.T returns though, first footage of him is sleeping at Makhulu's side. Rob said they may have become closer in the end, and there are reports saying they were spending a lot of time together in their latest months, while PB would remain alone chilling with the lionesses.
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United States BA0701 Offline
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(09-14-2023, 12:42 AM)Mapokser Wrote: @Ngonya The second photo I think is T, first photo I'm not completely sure.

As for who is the father, it's impossible to tell, any of the 6 can be the father of one or both, and I don't think they resemble any of their fathers strongly, their sisters also didn't.

@BA0701 Mr.T seemed to be more consistently dominant throughout 2011, but dominance changes from day to day, so sometimes the other brothers would get the upper hand. By late 2011 Leopard Hills said Mr.T was the most dominant and PB the least one.

Mr.T didn't "take over" the prides when he returned, Londolozi saw the 5 of them going east when Mr.T returned and noticed he was sidelined and submissive in the feeding frenzy when they caught a buffalo, and Leo Vantage has a video of PB and Dreadlocks asserting their dominance not allowing Mr.T near the cub or carcass:





In the video description Leo says Mr.T respected them and didn't come any closer but later found the cub and killed it when the other males weren't around.

2 cubs were killed this way, and the third one, Super Cub, was fatally injured by Mr.T in a feeding frenzy.

So it's not like Mr.T showed up, forced his brothers into submission and killed their cubs in front of them as the documentary suggests.

Mr.T played it smart, being submissive until he realized he wouldn't get rejected by the coalition, and once the cubs were dead and they were competing for mating rights, he wasn't dominating the competition, sometimes he'd win ( like in the video where he confronts Makhuku and fights PB ) and sometimes lose. There's a even a report of Makhuku and him competing at that time and Makhulu was more dominant:


*This image is copyright of its original author


When Mr.T returns the most dominant was probably Dreadlocks since posters at that time regarded Makhulu and him as the most dominant and a WildEarth ranger in early 2009 watching both groups of Mapogo together in Djuma said the coalition had 2 dominant males, first Makhulu and second "the one with the snipped tail", saying when there were females in estrus, these were the 2 they usually saw competing for the females and during most of the time they were the ones mating, so when Makhulu aged in 2010 Dreadlocks probably climbed to first place.

Though it's like I said, with Mapogos, not even the most consistently dominant will win all the time, dominance changed from day to day, even PB who was the least dominant of the western Mapogos and least dominant at the end of their reign, has been seen dominating Dreadlocks.

I don't think Mr.T and Makhulu had a strained relationship, Rob said they weren't close but this was no surprise, back in the day Makhulu was older and stronger, the others couldn't compete so they even split in 2007, the 5 weren't seen with Makhulu again as Ulusaba reports, they killed his Othawa cubs and would move throughout eastern SS a lot looking for opportunities. Then when they "reformed" the coalition again later in 2007 it didn't take long for Mr.T and KT to split.

When Mr.T returns though, first footage of him is sleeping at Makhulu's side. Rob said they may have become closer in the end, and there are reports saying they were spending a lot of time together in their latest months, while PB would remain alone chilling with the lionesses.

Fantastic post @Mapokser, thank you for that!
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Ngonya Away
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(09-14-2023, 12:42 AM)Mapokser Wrote: @Ngonya The second photo I think is T, first photo I'm not completely sure.

As for who is the father, it's impossible to tell, any of the 6 can be the father of one or both, and I don't think they resemble any of their fathers strongly, their sisters also didn't.

@BA0701 Mr.T seemed to be more consistently dominant throughout 2011, but dominance changes from day to day, so sometimes the other brothers would get the upper hand. By late 2011 Leopard Hills said Mr.T was the most dominant and PB the least one.

Mr.T didn't "take over" the prides when he returned, Londolozi saw the 5 of them going east when Mr.T returned and noticed he was sidelined and submissive in the feeding frenzy when they caught a buffalo, and Leo Vantage has a video of PB and Dreadlocks asserting their dominance not allowing Mr.T near the cub or carcass:





In the video description Leo says Mr.T respected them and didn't come any closer but later found the cub and killed it when the other males weren't around.

2 cubs were killed this way, and the third one, Super Cub, was fatally injured by Mr.T in a feeding frenzy.

So it's not like Mr.T showed up, forced his brothers into submission and killed their cubs in front of them as the documentary suggests.

Mr.T played it smart, being submissive until he realized he wouldn't get rejected by the coalition, and once the cubs were dead and they were competing for mating rights, he wasn't dominating the competition, sometimes he'd win ( like in the video where he confronts Makhuku and fights PB ) and sometimes lose. There's a even a report of Makhuku and him competing at that time and Makhulu was more dominant:


*This image is copyright of its original author


When Mr.T returns the most dominant was probably Dreadlocks since posters at that time regarded Makhulu and him as the most dominant and a WildEarth ranger in early 2009 watching both groups of Mapogo together in Djuma said the coalition had 2 dominant males, first Makhulu and second "the one with the snipped tail", saying when there were females in estrus, these were the 2 they usually saw competing for the females and during most of the time they were the ones mating, so when Makhulu aged in 2010 Dreadlocks probably climbed to first place.

Though it's like I said, with Mapogos, not even the most consistently dominant will win all the time, dominance changed from day to day, even PB who was the least dominant of the western Mapogos and least dominant at the end of their reign, has been seen dominating Dreadlocks.

I don't think Mr.T and Makhulu had a strained relationship, Rob said they weren't close but this was no surprise, back in the day Makhulu was older and stronger, the others couldn't compete so they even split in 2007, the 5 weren't seen with Makhulu again as Ulusaba reports, they killed his Othawa cubs and would move throughout eastern SS a lot looking for opportunities. Then when they "reformed" the coalition again later in 2007 it didn't take long for Mr.T and KT to split.

When Mr.T returns though, first footage of him is sleeping at Makhulu's side. Rob said they may have become closer in the end, and there are reports saying they were spending a lot of time together in their latest months, while PB would remain alone chilling with the lionesses.

I appreciate this bunch of information. I always thought it was strange in the documentary that that Mr T killed the cubs and the brothers just watched, it always seemed like unnatural behavior from lions, especially for males as dominant and aggressive as the Mapogos of the west
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United Kingdom KM600 Offline
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Very late response ik, but as previously mentioned I think Mr T just played it smart in a very sick, serial killer type of way. Once the cubs were gone the others could have very easily ousted Mr T or even killed him which I don’t think would have surprised anyone, at the time however I think either they sensed they may need him and as bad as it sounds, a strong coalition member majority of the time is viewed as more important than the lives of cubs, or they were loyal to a somewhat fault. This situation is only mentioned as opposed to when any of the 5 Mapogos had previously killed Makhulus cubs because they were the last cubs sired by the elder 4 that had the best chance at surviving. 

Was wondering if anyone knew what year the Sparta Pride last sired cubs between the years 2003-2006, if they did at all. Been said that 2003 was the year Makhulu was truly accepted and even become a coalition member and @Mapokser had mentioned to me Makhulu had actually fought his father’s for mating rights which I personally hadn’t heard of yet was always interested in the topic. Always wondered if Makhulu could have sired cubs from the Sparta Pride between these years yet as I hadn’t heard anything about it, I’m guessing if he did, they clearly didn’t survive.
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Panama Mapokser Offline
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@KM600 Lions have no concept of revenge, they wouldn't think "oh damn Mr.T he killed the cubs, he must pay for it!" they would stop him from killing them if they saw him trying ( as we have a video of exactly that happening ) but once the deed was done, they wouldn't hold it against Mr.T.

A few days before Mr.T died there were 5 Mapogo together in Leopard Hills, deep in the west, meaning either Mr.T or KT were making a visit. Plus they were always hearing each other's roars in their border and they controlled the Tsalala pride together, so it's not like he has ever been rejected or forgotten.

The western Mapogo's POV was probably that Mr.T was this remaining coalition partner who for some reason spent almost all his time east of them, wit their sidekick pride and backyard territory.

Makhulu's cubs from the Othawa pride were killed by all 5 younger Mapogos in 2007.

Idk of Sparta cubs born in 2003-2006, one would need to find and go through the MM Sparta reporta on it, but Makhulu was seen mating with a Sparta lioness and competing for another one a month later, but 1/2 remaining WSM dominated that day.

Aside from potential Sparta cubs in 2003-06, Mapogos also mated with Styx pride and it was reported that the new cubs were either from the Mapogos, Rollercoaster or mix of both.

And of course Mapogos mated with Nkuhuma females throughout all of 2008 and probably early 2009, but if any cubs from all of this survived and there blood is in any of these prides, is anyone's guess, we'll never know.
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United States afortich Offline
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Makhulu & Mr. T




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United Kingdom KM600 Offline
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Man I love Makhulu, one of the smartest lions I’ve ever come across, shame he left no male offspring other than the Othawa Boys that disappeared. Would have liked to not only see more interactions between him and his cubs but also go onto see them develop and create a legacy of their own.
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Panama Mapokser Offline
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IMO he was the only smart Mapogo, the others weren't very bright.
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Tylermartin! Offline
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(09-24-2023, 05:16 AM)Mapokser Wrote: IMO he was the only smart Mapogo, the others weren't very bright.

Disrespecting lions ok… so the others were all dumb lions yes?
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Panama Mapokser Offline
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( This post was last modified: 09-24-2023, 10:43 AM by Mapokser )

(09-24-2023, 05:36 AM)Tylermartin! Wrote:
(09-24-2023, 05:16 AM)Mapokser Wrote: IMO he was the only smart Mapogo, the others weren't very bright.

Disrespecting lions ok… so the others were all dumb lions yes?

What? I wasn't disrespecting them, they are my favorite coalition, why would I disrespect them? I was just stating my opinion that they weren't very intelligent lions, how is this disrespectful? It's the same as saying some lions aren't very aggressive, or big, or whatever... Should we lie and say they are all equal in everything? They are not.

Mapogos were very aggressive, competitive and confident, which made them in many occasions, reckless, there's nothing wrong in stating that, it's just how it is.

They'd also take poor decisions which sabotaged their own success, like the Idube report on Mr.T's death said, they were too focused on dominance to a point they'd sometimes kill each others cubs which isn't very common, this in fact could very well have passed through their genes to their descendents, as their Kambula granddaughters have been reported killing each other's cubs in at least 2 difference occasions, last time, recently, the old Kambula with younger cubs killed an older cub from one of the other lionesses as reported by Londolozi, something that is even much more uncommon than males killing their partners' cubs.

Only Makhulu I think was particularly smart, he managed to join another pride when he was very young, he managed to join his father's coalition when he grew up, and despite being more than 2 years older than most Mapogos and 3 years older than the 2 youngest, he was smart enough to wait and form a coalition of 6. Later he'd show to be smart enough to take risks when he wanted and clash 1v1, but also retreat when he wasn't feeling it in the same scenario, unlike, let's say, his younger brother, charging and chasing 4 rival males while carrying injuries from a fight he had in that very same day, which ended up killing him.
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United Kingdom KM600 Offline
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(09-24-2023, 10:41 AM)Mapokser Wrote:
(09-24-2023, 05:36 AM)Tylermartin! Wrote:
(09-24-2023, 05:16 AM)Mapokser Wrote: IMO he was the only smart Mapogo, the others weren't very bright.

Disrespecting lions ok… so the others were all dumb lions yes?

What? I wasn't disrespecting them, they are my favorite coalition, why would I disrespect them? I was just stating my opinion that they weren't very intelligent lions, how is this disrespectful? It's the same as saying some lions aren't very aggressive, or big, or whatever... Should we lie and say they are all equal in everything? They are not.

Mapogos were very aggressive, competitive and confident, which made them in many occasions, reckless, there's nothing wrong in stating that, it's just how it is.

They'd also take poor decisions which sabotaged their own success, like the Idube report on Mr.T's death said, they were too focused on dominance to a point they'd sometimes kill each others cubs which isn't very common, this in fact could very well have passed through their genes to their descendents, as their Kambula granddaughters have been reported killing each other's cubs in at least 2 difference occasions, last time, recently, the old Kambula with younger cubs killed an older cub from one of the other lionesses as reported by Londolozi, something that is even much more uncommon than males killing their partners' cubs.

Only Makhulu I think was particularly smart, he managed to join another pride when he was very young, he managed to join his father's coalition when he grew up, and despite being more than 2 years older than most Mapogos and 3 years older than the 2 youngest, he was smart enough to wait and form a coalition of 6. Later he'd show to be smart enough to take risks when he wanted and clash 1v1, but also retreat when he wasn't feeling it in the same scenario, unlike, let's say, his younger brother, charging and chasing 4 rival males while carrying injuries from a fight he had in that very same day, which ended up killing him.

Agreed I’ve always said that Makhulu would have been successful without the other 5 brothers but would have they all have been successful without him, I’m not so sure. People have to remember that all the cubs that were killed by the Mapogos were most likely all sired by Makhulu, no doubt his 5 brothers gave him numbers that were always useful when taking over territory and then helped keeping it but Makhulu himself sacrificed a lot.
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