There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
04-20-2022, 08:58 AM( This post was last modified: 04-20-2022, 10:02 AM by afortich )
(04-20-2022, 08:27 AM)Abomai Wrote:
(04-20-2022, 08:16 AM)afortich Wrote:
(04-20-2022, 07:59 AM)Abomai Wrote:
(04-20-2022, 07:05 AM)afortich Wrote:
(04-20-2022, 06:06 AM)Abomai Wrote:
(04-20-2022, 02:29 AM)afortich Wrote:
(04-20-2022, 12:30 AM)Gabriele Wrote:
(04-19-2022, 08:54 PM)Tonpa Wrote:
(04-19-2022, 08:51 PM)afortich Wrote:
(04-19-2022, 06:41 PM)Tonpa Wrote: But this isn't a street fight. We look at lion fights in the context of territorial and pride acquisition not who has a bloody nose. If a nomadic male fights a dominant male and the result of that fight is the nomadic male leaving the area and the dominant male retaining his pride, then the nomad lost.
Like I mentioned before, if Makulu beat Nhlanguleni during an territory takeover it makes no sense for him to retreat. He would've chased Nhlanguleni out of the area
Ok, now I think understand your position that Mak lost the fight. If understood correctly, Mak lost because Nhlanguleni retained the pride for a few days after their fight despite his injuries.
Yeah that's the way I view it. Although If we're looking solely at injuries dished out then Mak won
Earlier you said that the Selati had not lost in the first clashes with the 3 Mapogo, but now Mak would have lost, even though the other had been beaten, and after a few days he disappeared for ever.
In my personal opinion, Mak won the fight/battle with Nhlanguleni but not the territorial war during said fight. Mapogos won the territorial war with the disappearance of Nhlanguleni.
territorial fight? Mak was on patrol, not attempting a takeover. He found a lion, they fought, then he went back to his pride. The only thing he lost was a canine stuck in nhlanguleni's skull.
Patrolling??? how if mapogos were new in that territory and were not dominant males. Mak simply sensed the scent of Nhlangulenin and followed it. Then, what started as a fight, ended up in mapogos taking the terrritory controlled by Nhlanguleni. Then, how do you call the ending result?? I imply that it was a fight over territory.
Furthermore, a territorial challenge would generally take more than one fight before declaring any victory.
A lion picks up a scent and investigates by himself, that's patrolling.
Lions fight for food, mating and territory. Absence of the first 2, it was a territorial fight.
for nhlanguleni, maybe. makes sense from his perspective. not for mak though. he brought the war weeks later.
According to the information, I agree with your perspectives above.
That is why I stated above in my first reply that in my "opinion" it is a territorial fight, and I base my opinion in the facts that mapogos already met with the Ottawa pride and probably knew it was only nhlanguleni. Then, I am assuming Mak may have recognized his scent and went for him to start the taking over (fight for territory that somehow also involve mating and food).
Also considering that nomadic lions usually don’t kill other lions. Again, it is my opinion deduced from said facts. However, my opinion is simply a logical possibility that could be wrong.
(04-19-2022, 07:12 AM)Mapokser Wrote: Who lost the fight? Makhulu very clearly won against Nhlanguleni.
Since nobody saw the fight all we know is that they met somewhere in Nhlangulenis territory. They fought, and then Makulu vacated the area and went back east to his brothers. Nhlanguleni on the other hand went back to the pride his still retained control over (until the 6 males ousted him shortly after). I guess my biggest question, is that why wasn't he ousted that night by Makulu if it was a clear win?
If in 2021 one night, Wide-Nose Ndzhenga travelled to Singita and fought Othawa Male for the Mhaneni Pride, and the end result was that Wide-Nose retreated back south, would anybody say the Othawa male lost?
By this logic Mr.T won the fight against the 4 Majingilane in the day KT died. He fought them and went back to the pride he still had control over, and the Majingilanes only attacked again days later.
Ousting a male and defeating him in battle are not necessarily the same thing. A lion who's defeated might return to his lionesses to wait and see if the invaders will launch an attack there too because he might be able to hold his territory with the female's help, this is very common, the Mlowathi had the Rollercoaster male defeated, he couldn't do anything to them, but they were repelled by the Styx females multiple times. Or another example, Notch and one of his sons chased Fang who fled to his females, and when the two Notches caught to them, they were repelled by the lionesses.
Makhulu defeated Nhlanguleni but there was no reason to attack the pride without resting first, especially when you have 5 other males to help.
I don't know the full account of this battle, but did the majingilane vacate the area after killing KT or remain in the eastern mapogos territory?
From what I understand they stayed and fed on the body correct?
(04-19-2022, 07:12 AM)Mapokser Wrote: Who lost the fight? Makhulu very clearly won against Nhlanguleni.
Since nobody saw the fight all we know is that they met somewhere in Nhlangulenis territory. They fought, and then Makulu vacated the area and went back east to his brothers. Nhlanguleni on the other hand went back to the pride his still retained control over (until the 6 males ousted him shortly after). I guess my biggest question, is that why wasn't he ousted that night by Makulu if it was a clear win?
If in 2021 one night, Wide-Nose Ndzhenga travelled to Singita and fought Othawa Male for the Mhaneni Pride, and the end result was that Wide-Nose retreated back south, would anybody say the Othawa male lost?
By this logic Mr.T won the fight against the 4 Majingilane in the day KT died. He fought them and went back to the pride he still had control over, and the Majingilanes only attacked again days later.
Ousting a male and defeating him in battle are not necessarily the same thing. A lion who's defeated might return to his lionesses to wait and see if the invaders will launch an attack there too because he might be able to hold his territory with the female's help, this is very common, the Mlowathi had the Rollercoaster male defeated, he couldn't do anything to them, but they were repelled by the Styx females multiple times. Or another example, Notch and one of his sons chased Fang who fled to his females, and when the two Notches caught to them, they were repelled by the lionesses.
Makhulu defeated Nhlanguleni but there was no reason to attack the pride without resting first, especially when you have 5 other males to help.
I don't know the full account of this battle, but did the majingilane vacate the area after killing KT or remain in the eastern mapogos territory?
From what I understand they stayed and fed on the body correct?
After killing KT, the majingilane chased off Mr. T a few days later, and took control over the eastern sector territory dominated by Mr. T and KT.
(04-19-2022, 07:12 AM)Mapokser Wrote: Who lost the fight? Makhulu very clearly won against Nhlanguleni.
Since nobody saw the fight all we know is that they met somewhere in Nhlangulenis territory. They fought, and then Makulu vacated the area and went back east to his brothers. Nhlanguleni on the other hand went back to the pride his still retained control over (until the 6 males ousted him shortly after). I guess my biggest question, is that why wasn't he ousted that night by Makulu if it was a clear win?
If in 2021 one night, Wide-Nose Ndzhenga travelled to Singita and fought Othawa Male for the Mhaneni Pride, and the end result was that Wide-Nose retreated back south, would anybody say the Othawa male lost?
By this logic Mr.T won the fight against the 4 Majingilane in the day KT died. He fought them and went back to the pride he still had control over, and the Majingilanes only attacked again days later.
Ousting a male and defeating him in battle are not necessarily the same thing. A lion who's defeated might return to his lionesses to wait and see if the invaders will launch an attack there too because he might be able to hold his territory with the female's help, this is very common, the Mlowathi had the Rollercoaster male defeated, he couldn't do anything to them, but they were repelled by the Styx females multiple times. Or another example, Notch and one of his sons chased Fang who fled to his females, and when the two Notches caught to them, they were repelled by the lionesses.
Makhulu defeated Nhlanguleni but there was no reason to attack the pride without resting first, especially when you have 5 other males to help.
I don't know the full account of this battle, but did the majingilane vacate the area after killing KT or remain in the eastern mapogos territory?
From what I understand they stayed and fed on the body correct?
Yes. But the behavior of the Majingilane is quite unusual, usually when a lion is badly injured and immobilized it is left alone until it dies, with Kinky Tail aka Shaka, there is something wrong, they are raging on the neck and muzzle even when he was now incapable of any reaction.
04-21-2022, 12:00 AM( This post was last modified: 04-21-2022, 01:16 AM by afortich )
(04-20-2022, 11:41 PM)Gabriele Wrote:
(04-20-2022, 11:25 AM)Tonpa Wrote:
(04-20-2022, 06:40 AM)Mapokser Wrote:
(04-19-2022, 01:21 PM)Tonpa Wrote:
(04-19-2022, 07:12 AM)Mapokser Wrote: Who lost the fight? Makhulu very clearly won against Nhlanguleni.
Since nobody saw the fight all we know is that they met somewhere in Nhlangulenis territory. They fought, and then Makulu vacated the area and went back east to his brothers. Nhlanguleni on the other hand went back to the pride his still retained control over (until the 6 males ousted him shortly after). I guess my biggest question, is that why wasn't he ousted that night by Makulu if it was a clear win?
If in 2021 one night, Wide-Nose Ndzhenga travelled to Singita and fought Othawa Male for the Mhaneni Pride, and the end result was that Wide-Nose retreated back south, would anybody say the Othawa male lost?
By this logic Mr.T won the fight against the 4 Majingilane in the day KT died. He fought them and went back to the pride he still had control over, and the Majingilanes only attacked again days later.
Ousting a male and defeating him in battle are not necessarily the same thing. A lion who's defeated might return to his lionesses to wait and see if the invaders will launch an attack there too because he might be able to hold his territory with the female's help, this is very common, the Mlowathi had the Rollercoaster male defeated, he couldn't do anything to them, but they were repelled by the Styx females multiple times. Or another example, Notch and one of his sons chased Fang who fled to his females, and when the two Notches caught to them, they were repelled by the lionesses.
Makhulu defeated Nhlanguleni but there was no reason to attack the pride without resting first, especially when you have 5 other males to help.
I don't know the full account of this battle, but did the majingilane vacate the area after killing KT or remain in the eastern mapogos territory?
From what I understand they stayed and fed on the body correct?
Yes. But the behavior of the Majingilanes is quite unusual, usually when a lion is badly injured and immobilized it is left alone until it dies, with Kinky Tail aka Shaka, there is something wrong, they are raging on the neck and muzzle even when he was now incapable of any reaction.
Exactly, the behavior of the Majingilanes suggest anger, revenge, retaliation, vengeance, cannibalism, etc., which is not an instinct behavior but more similar to feelings, as I discussed recently discussed in the N'waswitshaka males thread.
Therefore, not all animal behaviors could be considered only instinct.
04-21-2022, 03:04 AM( This post was last modified: 04-21-2022, 03:06 AM by Mapokser )
(04-20-2022, 11:25 AM)Tonpa Wrote:
(04-20-2022, 06:40 AM)Mapokser Wrote:
(04-19-2022, 01:21 PM)Tonpa Wrote:
(04-19-2022, 07:12 AM)Mapokser Wrote: Who lost the fight? Makhulu very clearly won against Nhlanguleni.
Since nobody saw the fight all we know is that they met somewhere in Nhlangulenis territory. They fought, and then Makulu vacated the area and went back east to his brothers. Nhlanguleni on the other hand went back to the pride his still retained control over (until the 6 males ousted him shortly after). I guess my biggest question, is that why wasn't he ousted that night by Makulu if it was a clear win?
If in 2021 one night, Wide-Nose Ndzhenga travelled to Singita and fought Othawa Male for the Mhaneni Pride, and the end result was that Wide-Nose retreated back south, would anybody say the Othawa male lost?
By this logic Mr.T won the fight against the 4 Majingilane in the day KT died. He fought them and went back to the pride he still had control over, and the Majingilanes only attacked again days later.
Ousting a male and defeating him in battle are not necessarily the same thing. A lion who's defeated might return to his lionesses to wait and see if the invaders will launch an attack there too because he might be able to hold his territory with the female's help, this is very common, the Mlowathi had the Rollercoaster male defeated, he couldn't do anything to them, but they were repelled by the Styx females multiple times. Or another example, Notch and one of his sons chased Fang who fled to his females, and when the two Notches caught to them, they were repelled by the lionesses.
Makhulu defeated Nhlanguleni but there was no reason to attack the pride without resting first, especially when you have 5 other males to help.
I don't know the full account of this battle, but did the majingilane vacate the area after killing KT or remain in the eastern mapogos territory?
From what I understand they stayed and fed on the body correct?
Yes they ate him, dunno what they did after that, but your point was that after the fight Nhlanguleni still had control over the pride so he won.
Being in other lion's territory is no big deal, that happens all the time, especially if the lion doesn't roar to challenge the dominant males, nomadic lions live this way until they're strong enough to start roaring in challenge.
What decides the status of any territory ownership is the prides, the lion who controls the pride is the dominant male at the time. After the Majingilane fight, Mr.T was still in control and not only that but he was roaring against the 4 Majingilane. It wasn't until the Majingilane launched new attacks ( or a new attack I don't remember now ) days or weeks later against the pride where Mr.T was at the time, that he run out of the territory and the Majins killed the cubs, taking over.
By your standard, Mr.T was the winner of the confrontation when KT died, but clearly that wasn't the case, he fought and lost, but despite losing, wasn't ousted immediately, because ousting and defeating a male in battle are not necessarily the same thing, it can happen that the dominant male leaves immediately after losing a fight, but not aways, if he thinks he can hold the territory by sticking close to the prides he'll try that.
04-21-2022, 06:17 AM( This post was last modified: 04-21-2022, 06:20 AM by 1999gc8 )
There's still a video on youtube of the manjinga's eating KT. Half of his torso was gone and he was still alive as they were eating. The camera is directly in front of KT's head and you can see him move his head as he takes his last breath I vaguely recall he made a noise as well. Absolutely horrible to watch and I'll never watch it ever again or anything to do with them eating him.
04-23-2022, 05:06 PM( This post was last modified: 04-23-2022, 05:18 PM by Gabriele )
5 hours of that brutality
Two comments on video:
"
Kinky tail was a very unintelligent and unimpressive lion. He liked to take needless risks, stupid miscalculations, and vastly over estimated his own abilities. He was brutal and ruthless in a most pointless and unhelpful way. I hope he did not pass on his defective genes to any unfortunate lioness before he met justice and karma for being an asshole
9 giorni fa
He did pass on his genes, and Mr. T too. Their Mangheni daughters are fierce and tenacious, and also "unintelligent." Sure, harass a hyena in Londolozi, she leads them and they stupidly follow, to the rest of the clan and a total of 20 hyenas captures and eats the Ottawa male's 18-month-old daughter. Probably, BUT NOT FOR SURE, it's not sure she was seen with them when the Manghenis got farther south and met a Ndzenga male or males. Also, the Kambula/Ntsevu granddaughters of KT and Mr. T are vicious, there own Birmingham offspring are nasty, and killing their own grandmothers/mothers/aunts seems to sort of run through the Mangheni and Kambula prides.
"
