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Talamati Pride

Croatia Tr1x24 Offline
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( This post was last modified: 11-30-2022, 09:58 PM by Tr1x24 )

(11-30-2022, 07:49 PM)criollo2mil Wrote: I disagree it’s a mistaken name.   It should remain TALAMATI.  I think they followed proper protocol.  Those lionesses left one by one…..they made the decision to split off toward a new male.    The matriarchs stayed with the CORE.   Once these YFs enter estrus, the breakaways will no longer have more lionesses.  I do not think they’ll change any names of the core…..but simply give the Ladies w S8 a proper name.

It doesn’t matter if they breakaway 1 by 1, they are 3 females vs 1 ( 2 if you count SilverEye, although she was with them quite rare and only at the beginning) which is majority , and these 3 females stayed territorial on Talamatis core territory, under new dominant male, while subs went nomadic with 1 female (SilverEye never left Talamatis core territory, but she also didn't accept S8, she was basically neutral). This female will also die in near future, leaving 0 pre split females in that "core" pride? lol. 

This is like saying, when 4 Mhangenis breakaway with BB Tsalala female and become nomads , that 4 Mhangenis and BB should stayed Tsalalas, while 2 remaining Tsalala (Tailess and Tailed), who stayed in their territory and mated with new males, should be called breakaway or Mhangenis lol, because they had less numbers and oldest female left lol (regardless if BB Tsalala female returned back or not).

S8 females where started to be called breakaway's because they accepted S8 1 by 1, but eventually majority of those adult females accepted S8 male, which is territorial male on Talamati core territory.

This would be the only example i know that majority females who accepted new territorial male in their pride territory are called breakaway's, while their subs with 1 adult female are nomads and moved out of their pride territory are called core, because idk, they have only 1 oldest female who stayed with them.. 

Doesn't make any sense.
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Tonpa Offline
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Arathusa put out a  blog today on the Talamatis, some mistakes but it's something I guess
https://www.arathusa.co.za/2022/11/30/th...ion-pride/

The History Of The Talamati Lion Pride

Originally part of the Nkuhuma Pride, the Talamati Pride of lions broke away from the Nkuhumas in 2007 when the Mapogo males took over from the Manyeleti males. They established territory further north, where the females started mating with the Old Nkuhuma males. The two oldest lionesses in the Talamati pride – one of which is blind in one eye (known as Silver-eye) – were born from union. 

The Talamati Pride was officially named in 2011 after the Talamati Bushveld Camp (Talamati means ‘lots of water’ in Xitsonga). Here’s a brief history since then…

• 2011 – the pride was taken over by the Matimba males. Only one female cub sired by the Matimba males survived, but is no longer with the pride.
• 2015 – The Matimba males were chased out by the Birmingham males, which lead to the Selati males moving in and claiming the Talamati Pride. During this reign 2 females died, leaving the pride with 3 lionesses.
• 2018 – the 3 brothers of the Northern Avoca male coalition became the dominant males of the area, forcing the Birmingham males to move south and claiming the Talamati Pride (as well as the Nkuhuma Pride) as their own.
• Early 2020 – the Dark Mane Avoca male separated himself from his brothers and claimed the 5 Talamati lionesses.

In 2021, the Imbali takeover occurred… The Imbali male sensed that Dark Mane was alone and attempted to claim the Talamati Pride as his own. During this takeover, 2 females got killed by the Imbali males and 1 male lion disappeared. This takeover caused the Talamati Pride to split in two, which is how we see them today:

Talamati main pride
• 4 Lionesses – Born late 2018 early 2019, sired by Avoca males
• Blue-eyed/Silver-eyed Female lioness – Born around 2007/2008
• Two young adult males – Born late 2018/early 2019, sired by Avoca males
There are 4 lionesses and 2 young males. The silver eye female has been on her own for a while now, but when she joins the pride there are 5 lionesses.
The Talamatis main pride has moved more to the area west/south-west of Arathusa.
Dark mane is also occasionally found with these Talamatis.

Talamati breakaway pride
• Two Lionesses – Born around 2014, sired by Selati males
• One Lioness – Born around 2012, sire Unknown
• Five Cubs – Born around January 2022, sired by the S8 male
• S8 Male – Born around 2014

The Talamati breakaways are comprised of 3 females with 5 cubs. They are located in south Manyeleti, Buffelshoek and the far northern part of Djuma..
The S8 male is the father of all the cubs, and is responsible for the safety of those cubs and the females. He looks after the territory that they currently reside on.
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criollo2mil Offline
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(12-01-2022, 05:43 AM)Tonpa Wrote: Arathusa put out a  blog today on the Talamatis, some mistakes but it's something I guess
https://www.arathusa.co.za/2022/11/30/th...ion-pride/

The History Of The Talamati Lion Pride

Originally part of the Nkuhuma Pride, the Talamati Pride of lions broke away from the Nkuhumas in 2007 when the Mapogo males took over from the Manyeleti males. They established territory further north, where the females started mating with the Old Nkuhuma males. The two oldest lionesses in the Talamati pride – one of which is blind in one eye (known as Silver-eye) – were born from union. 

The Talamati Pride was officially named in 2011 after the Talamati Bushveld Camp (Talamati means ‘lots of water’ in Xitsonga). Here’s a brief history since then…

• 2011 – the pride was taken over by the Matimba males. Only one female cub sired by the Matimba males survived, but is no longer with the pride.
• 2015 – The Matimba males were chased out by the Birmingham males, which lead to the Selati males moving in and claiming the Talamati Pride. During this reign 2 females died, leaving the pride with 3 lionesses.
• 2018 – the 3 brothers of the Northern Avoca male coalition became the dominant males of the area, forcing the Birmingham males to move south and claiming the Talamati Pride (as well as the Nkuhuma Pride) as their own.
• Early 2020 – the Dark Mane Avoca male separated himself from his brothers and claimed the 5 Talamati lionesses.

In 2021, the Imbali takeover occurred… The Imbali male sensed that Dark Mane was alone and attempted to claim the Talamati Pride as his own. During this takeover, 2 females got killed by the Imbali males and 1 male lion disappeared. This takeover caused the Talamati Pride to split in two, which is how we see them today:

Talamati main pride
• 4 Lionesses – Born late 2018 early 2019, sired by Avoca males
• Blue-eyed/Silver-eyed Female lioness – Born around 2007/2008
• Two young adult males – Born late 2018/early 2019, sired by Avoca males
There are 4 lionesses and 2 young males. The silver eye female has been on her own for a while now, but when she joins the pride there are 5 lionesses.
The Talamatis main pride has moved more to the area west/south-west of Arathusa.
Dark mane is also occasionally found with these Talamatis.

Talamati breakaway pride
• Two Lionesses – Born around 2014, sired by Selati males
• One Lioness – Born around 2012, sire Unknown
• Five Cubs – Born around January 2022, sired by the S8 male
• S8 Male – Born around 2014

The Talamati breakaways are comprised of 3 females with 5 cubs. They are located in south Manyeleti, Buffelshoek and the far northern part of Djuma..
The S8 male is the father of all the cubs, and is responsible for the safety of those cubs and the females. He looks after the territory that they currently reside on.

I do see a few inconsistencies but Still very good info.   Thank you for sharing.   I don’t think I would have seen this otherwise.   

Maybe we can sort of pin (add/amend ) this link as reference to the lead post speaking of the history?   Just a suggestion.
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Tonpa Offline
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Regarding the Breakaway/not breakaway thing I think the window for a decision is gone. Arathusa, Djuma, WildEarth and the broader Lion community refers to the three as the breakaways, although interestingly Elephant Plains referred to the sub-adults as the breakaways in the last weeks report whilst previously referring to them as just the "Talamati sub-adults". I think unless the majority of lodges start calling them core I'll just continue calling them breakaway for now

Cubless Breakaway lioness and the 1:2 cub by Deon Kelbrick


*This image is copyright of its original author
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Croatia Tr1x24 Offline
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(12-01-2022, 06:39 PM)Tonpa Wrote: Regarding the Breakaway/not breakaway thing I think the window for a decision is gone. Arathusa, Djuma, WildEarth and the broader Lion community refers to the three as the breakaways, although interestingly Elephant Plains referred to the sub-adults as the breakaways in the last weeks report whilst previously referring to them as just the "Talamati sub-adults". I think unless the majority of lodges start calling them core I'll just continue calling them breakaway for now

Cubless Breakaway lioness and the 1:2 cub by Deon Kelbrick

Well yea, if majority of lodges calls them like that, its done (although its wrong). 

I just hope they dont rename them, atleast leave them the name Talamati breakaway.
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Croatia Tr1x24 Offline
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(12-01-2022, 05:43 AM)Tonpa Wrote: • Two Lionesses – Born around 2014, sired by Selati males
• One Lioness – Born around 2012, sire Unknown

Selati offspring is born around late 2015. 

That 1 lioness from 2012 is Matimbas offspring.
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criollo2mil Offline
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Talamatis strike again!

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criollo2mil Offline
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(12-01-2022, 06:43 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote:
(12-01-2022, 06:39 PM)Tonpa Wrote: Regarding the Breakaway/not breakaway thing I think the window for a decision is gone. Arathusa, Djuma, WildEarth and the broader Lion community refers to the three as the breakaways, although interestingly Elephant Plains referred to the sub-adults as the breakaways in the last weeks report whilst previously referring to them as just the "Talamati sub-adults". I think unless the majority of lodges start calling them core I'll just continue calling them breakaway for now

Cubless Breakaway lioness and the 1:2 cub by Deon Kelbrick

Well yea, if majority of lodges calls them like that, its done (although its wrong). 

I just hope they dont rename them, atleast leave them the name Talamati breakaway.

are there any examples (I know the Mala Mala vs Londolozi feud) of instances where a reserve chooses to rename a Pride differently than what another reserve has established….for example a Pride that’s moved territories?

I know that there’s some type of Animous between londolozi and Malala where they do not use each other’s names.   Any more out there.
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Tonpa Offline
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(12-02-2022, 12:49 AM)criollo2mil Wrote:
(12-01-2022, 06:43 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote:
(12-01-2022, 06:39 PM)Tonpa Wrote: Regarding the Breakaway/not breakaway thing I think the window for a decision is gone. Arathusa, Djuma, WildEarth and the broader Lion community refers to the three as the breakaways, although interestingly Elephant Plains referred to the sub-adults as the breakaways in the last weeks report whilst previously referring to them as just the "Talamati sub-adults". I think unless the majority of lodges start calling them core I'll just continue calling them breakaway for now

Cubless Breakaway lioness and the 1:2 cub by Deon Kelbrick

Well yea, if majority of lodges calls them like that, its done (although its wrong). 

I just hope they dont rename them, atleast leave them the name Talamati breakaway.

are there any examples (I know the Mala Mala vs Londolozi feud) of instances where a reserve chooses to rename a Pride differently than what another reserve has established….for example a Pride that’s moved territories?

I know that there’s some type of Animous between londolozi and Malala where they do not use each other’s names.   Any more out there.

In Balule there's the Kudyela/Thakazile Pride. One lodge named them Kudyela pride which was the name of the dominant male, so "Kudyela's pride", another named them Thakazile which is I think is the name of the land or the farm the lodge is on.
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DARK MANE Offline
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( This post was last modified: 12-03-2022, 08:13 AM by DARK MANE )

S8 and talamati breakaway
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Tonpa Offline
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Subs on a buff 

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Tonpa Offline
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Old girl alone on the buffalo

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Tonpa Offline
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This afternoon 
Guides aren't certain, but they think the cub distrubution is 3 boys 2 girls.



*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author
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Tonpa Offline
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Talamatis from the air

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