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Size comparisons
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A skull from an adult male lion and a rostrum from a jaguar in Matto Grosso (Brazil)
 *This image is copyright of its original author
 Quote:I don’t know what you mean by downgrading. I am simply pointing out to you that this jaguar is the same as the 148kg record which was being discussed earlier because looking through your posts you seem to be unaware of this fact. You’ve posted this video a few times indicating this is a different specimen to the 148kg record and stating it was unbaited and empty for some reason. That is incorrect – that is the mistake I was referring to. Also, the video you’ve been posting has the important bit about stomach content edited out (making your unsubstantiated claim that it was with empty stomach also a mistake).Correct, that was my mistake. I saw two different weights, I didn't see Rafael in the Video and it was captured by snare with no bait present from what I could see. Thus my assumption was incorrect in assuming they were 2 different captures. In regards to "important stomach content" there is nothing stated there other than it's looks fat but not full and I have already stated that is how they look most of the time, I'd be happy to find many more who have said the same if you don't believe me. Quote:You also posted lots of incorrect weights for jaguars taken by Tony Almeida in the "modern weights of jaguars" thread without any source. Those were also mistakes as already pointed out.I have already responded to this on the "modern weights and measurements thread. My Response below "The images and weights were provided via a "big game" page which has been discussed here prior. Some inaccuracies could very well be listed. But not all of them are inaccurate mrs. tomas fernandez with a record jaguar ; skull 20 8/16-Correct milton meirelles shot this monster with a skull of 20 2/16-Correct monster 127kg jaguar hunted by hector cuellar 279 pounds- Incorrect 118kg *No skull size measured, shown as 127kg* knut bellinger with monster 257 pounder- Incorrect actually 108kg not 116kg 330lb local with jaguar RECORD shot by ken vaughn- Inconclusive *No Weight Provided* Now, I ask you how do you know each image is the corresponding Jaguar mentioned in the Book? Do you have page references or are you assuming each belongs to that account?" The Facebook page I'm speaking of is here https://www.facebook.com/pg/game.animals/photos/?tab=album&album_id=390531127634853&ref=page_internal.... It's called Game Animals of the Past and Present This has been discussed here before, I didn't feel the need to supply the same source again since it brings a bit of animosity from some posters here so I try not to advertise them if I can help it. Were some of the weights incorrect, yes if those are the same cats as mentioned in the scan. But the scores were accurate on not all the weights are far off nor are all of the weights inaccurate. But again, we're talking about Jaguars of the Past compared to Jaguars of the present. Jaguars of the Present have already easily exceeded all weights from Almeidas scans. I also want to ask if Almeida was actually on hand for all of these captures and weights? Quote:But I don’t see any reason to believe the competition would be particularly intense. I mention science because my reasoning is based on well established concepts of evolutionary biology and animal behaviour. It is well known that sexual dimorphism is strongly linked to inter-male competition – when there’s a lot of fighting between males they get a lot bigger than the females. Here the jaguar normally ranks the lowest among the big cats leaving aside the snow leopard I'm not sure what more you need to see, Jaguars fight often in the Pantanal and the bear the scars and accounts to prove it. You are right about males increasing in size when competition is abundant and the Pantanal is no different. The size difference between males and females is very similar to any other big cat. Males can range 80-150kg females can range from 65-100kg but females in the Pantanal are very large and I've definitely seen the largest female compared to a male there than any other big cat I've seen. But to assume that is the only factor that determines competition would be incorrect. Here's a few examples of the sexual dimorphism in size:  *This image is copyright of its original author You can look at Kanha as the perfect example. This is Umarpani, said to be the largest male in all of Kanha, he's dominated Mukki and killed off 2 very large males in the process. The first video is him dominating his 193kg male sub adult son or possible son...*debatable who his actual father is* Body Measurements for MV2 Nose to base of tail , 205 cm, tail 92 cm Height 125 cm "Over the Curves Protocol" I'm having a hard time finding the video but I will and I'll post it when I do. In the video you get to see Umarpani mating with a large female, in no way does he dwarf this female the way the jaguars I've shown above dwarf their opposites but even so, we already know Umarpani is arguably the most dominate male seen in Kanha from recent history and is an extremely large male on top of that. Like I stated before, Kanha is also home to a very large Tiger density and considered to be one of the more violent parks when it comes to dominate males fighting but yet my self, Pantherinae and others who've seen Kanha females first hand have said that they are extremely large, some have even been confused for males at times. This is a direct contradiction to the idea that competition must be directly related to a huge sexual dimorphic difference. Quote:Secondly, studies on the spatial organization of jaguars suggest they have very loose territories with little monopolization of females – this would also be an indicator of less inter male competition because more rigid territories and greater monopolization of females usually results in more fighting for breeding rights. Jaguars also generally occur at lower densities than other big cats which may also translate to less competition.Jaguars also live in an area that is impossible to mark, they don't set up boundaries or protect territory the same way since their landscape is ever changing. Sand bars that are there one year are gone the next, trees fall and wash away. There is no need to live by the same rules as an area that offers a completely different habitat. In regards to Density, this is once again dates back to what I said about their numbers increasing astronomically with direct correlation to Caiman numbers increasing. Like I've already stated, in the meeting of the 3 rivers alone you have at least 65 confirmed individuals not including unidentified cats which are spotted every season. In the Pantanal you have the highest density of Jaguar and with in the Amazon and Pantanal you have up to 3,000 Jaguars at this time *if I remember correctly* and hopefully continuing growth. Quote:The lack of additional secondary sex characteristics present in the other 3 big pantherines (mane, dewlap, ruff) but not the jaguar also makes the jaguar less dimorphic and indicates less intense competition.Sexual Dimorphism isn't a +1 scenario, some species show more outer difference like color or feather/fur changes while others show size dimorphism and others show a little of everything. There is no correlation to more color or brighter longer feathers/fur to living a more or less competitive life. Nor is that rule true for every sub species of these cats. For Instance: Dewalps are far less prevalent in Persian, Indian, Sri Lankan, Congo Basin and Amur Leopards. In fact, they seem to be more constant in areas where Kills are tree stashed than where they aren't stashed as much. Ruff, many Tigers have little to no ruff, in fact, their ruff or mane has been shown to be more individual based than location based. You also have no correlation to a ruff leading to a more competitive area. Considering one of the most competitive parks in India is ruled by 2 males who have almost no ruff (Umarpani and Chota Munna) I can also name more throughout Kanha and all over C. Indian Parks if need be. Manes do show an advantage when females chose a mate but they also show a significant difference depending on location. For instance, in the Ngorongoro Crater they have a mane that covers their entire shoulder while in the neighboring Ngorongoro Reserve and Serengeti, Lions tend to not have a mane that covers the shoulder. Quote:Lastly, in species where males fight a lot, there is greater senility – meaning the males age early and live short lives. But a lot of male jaguars seem to reach very old age in the wild, quite a bit older than males of the other big cats. For example, one of the big males taken by Tony Almeida was estimated to be over 20 years old in prime Pantanal territory based on previous encounters and his physical condition. Another male captured for study in the Llanos was aged at 20 years old by researchers. And recently the Panthera researchers posted about a 15 year old and a 19 year old male still holding territories in the Pantanal.Again I will name Kanha and I will again use individuals with in Kanha to dispel this claim. At this very moment, Munna is now over 17 years old and still holding down territory while even making his way into the main tourism zone from time to time. Wagdoh of Tadoba is another example of this, he's also 17 years and still fighting and holding territory. I have little doubt I couldn't present some exceptional examples of this in Leopards and Lions as well. Also remember, estimating age of a Cat without proper documentation throughout ones life is simply an estimation with no actual proof to back it. Unlike the Cats I've named which have all been monitored throughout their lives. Now if these researchers have followed this exact Jaguars for 20 years, than I agree to their claim, if not, then there is major holes in the argument. And in the N. Pantanal and more specifically, meeting of 3 Rivers at this very moment, there are definitely not any Jaguars close to 20 years old, the oldest ones have all been displaced for the most part and it's ruled by Marley, Balwin, Tusk, Reo, Juru, Brother Xando and Borro and two other Big Males I saw to name a few are all far younger than 12 years old so I'm again not sure how outliers some how represent an entire species.  (08-28-2019, 11:59 PM)Pckts Wrote: I have already responded to this on the "modern weights and measurements thread. I will address your mistakes regarding Almeida’s jaguars on the other thread. Quote:I'm not sure what more you need to see, Jaguars fight often in the Pantanal and the bear the scars and accounts to prove it. I’m sure huge male jaguars of upto 300lbs will dwarf small females of around 120lbs as your pictures show. That does not change the fact that typically the jaguar is the least sexually dimorphic of the 4 biggest pantherines, particularly in terms of cranial measurements. Quote:Sexual Dimorphism isn't a +1 scenerio, some species show more outer difference like color or feather/furr changes while others show size dimorphism and others show a little of everything. There is no correlation to more color or brighter longer feathers/fur to living a more or less competitive life. Nor is that rule true for every sub species of these cats. The whole point of these features is to be variable, they will be more prominent in some males compared to others, that is how male quality is differentiated. Also the dewlap has no connection or correlation to treeing kills, that doesn’t make any sense. Why would a sexually selected trait be associated with climbing with kills? If the dewlap did have some benefit for climbing trees males and females would both have it, especially since females cache kills more frequently. It also wouldn’t become more prominent with age. With all due respect, it is obvious your grasp of evolutionary biology is limited but I don’t have the time to go into detail and explain to you how natural selection works. Quote:I’m sure huge male jaguars of upto 300lbs will dwarf small females of around 120lbs as your pictures show. That does not change the fact that typically the jaguar is the least sexually dimorphic of the 4 biggest pantherines, particularly in terms of cranial measurements.And Cranial measurements don't change the fact that their Male v Female Body weights show similar differences between min and max weights for both sexes. Quote:The whole point of these features is to be variable, they will be more prominent in some males compared to others, that is how male quality is differentiated.And once again, Ruff on a Tiger hasn't been shown to have anything to do with quality and in fact many dominate males from Reserves all over have little to no ruff while other males with in the same reserve who are less dominate have larger ruffs... and vice versa The Dewlap connection was of course a hypothesis based off the fact that certain Leopard sub species show far less necessity for a dewlap, especially in areas where Tree'd kills aren't done often. Also if a Dewlap contains muscle than of course as a Leopard matures and it continues to develop that muscle, it will get larger with age. Correlation ins't always causation but there is definitely something to look at there. Interesting enough, you claim Persian and Congo Basin Leopards as being the largest Leopards yet both probably show the least amount of Dewlap occurrence out of all I've named. Yes, females have no Dewlap, it is a male characteristic but it certainly isn't proof that Leopards somehow suffer from more competition than Jaguars in the Pantanal. Quote:With all due respect, it is obvious your grasp of evolutionary biology is limited but I don’t have the time to go into detail and explain to you how natural selection works.With all due respect, it's obvious your lack of real world experience with Big Cats and the differences in their Habitat show through. You think that all animals live by a set of rules that is explainable in a random study but give no credence to first hand accounts from people who've actually been there and have conflicting data against your claims. So whether you try and Show Marley making a Larger Male submit as being "non territorial" or you claim anything over 119kgs as being exceptional or Jaguars live longer in the wild and thus they are less Territorial, you have been proven wrong on all those fronts. Do I see you acknowledging that? No, of course not. You prefer to move past those false claims and start a different one. The Pantanal is unlike any place on Earth and because of that, the Cats there are unique unto themselves. I can run down a list on reasons why, I can do the same for the Crater in Tanzania or the Forests of Kanha. I can guarantee that anyone who's been to Kaziranga, The Delta, Terai Arc parks etc. can all do the same as well. So In closing since this debate has taken many twists and turns I'll leave it at this Jaguars in the Pantanal have no issue getting over 130kg, and if Adriano is 130kg like Fernando Tortato says "He's Rafael partner for Panthera and has actually taken over field work for quite some time" then you can guarantee that there are at least 2-4 other Males just in the meeting of the 3 Rivers alone who are larger than he is. Jaguar Sexual Dimorphism statistically shows just about the same range as any other Panthera. Remember, Weight differences between Sexes is one of the definitions of Sexual Dimorphism. " distinct difference in size or appearance between the sexes of an animal in addition to difference between the sexual organs themselves." Marley is a smaller sized male, he was comparable to Scar but dwarfed by Balwin, Fought the first male a week earlier and defeated him, the video you showed was the Male trying to save face with Marley and Marley was defeated handily by Balwin. Jaguar Density in the Pantanal is unlike anywhere else and the competition in the 3 Rivers is so strong that most Jaguars are never seen once they are kicked out and it's almost impossible to see cubs there since the Male presence is so high and Jaguar numbers have continued to increase for the past 20 years and thus Jaguars there have continued to grow big and strong.
Hello Peter
Coming back to the leopard skulls you’ve looked at. If it’s not too much trouble could you provide any further details about the 12 skulls which were from outside Tanzania (location/origin, age, size etc). I’m assuming when you say western Central Africa you mean Cameroon (a former German colony)? If so can you tell me what specific area the biggest skull and others were from? I ask because Cameroon spans a large area from north to south and as a result covers different African biomes (the sahel, the savanna, savanna/forest mosaic, rainforest). Also, recent genetic studies suggest the leopards of Cameroon may group with 3 distinct populations – West African, Central/East African, and the Gabonese in the south (although further studies are needed to confirm this). Regarding the skulls from Tanzania (formerly German East Africa), I suspect all or most of the skulls you looked at may have been from the lower elevation southern and coastal areas of that country where the leopards are known to be pretty small, averaging around 45kg based on recorded data. The bigger leopards in Tanzania (and East Africa in general) are those from the highlands in the more northern and western parts of that country (near the border with Kenya and Uganda) – averaging around 60kg based on recorded data from Kenya and northern Tanzania. And the very biggest in East Africa appear to be from the dense forests surrounding mountain peaks – especially areas like the Aberdares and Mt Kenya in Kenya but also places like Mt Meru in Tanzania. No specific sample available from these high mountain forests but PH Hamilton (senior wildlife biologist of the Kenya Wildlife department in the 1980s) indicated an average of around 70kg for males in the mountain forests with a range of 60-95kg (probably based on hunted specimens). This overall trend in leopard size related to elevation has been noted pretty consistently by professional hunters experienced in East Africa. For comparison to the fairly small skulls from former German East Africa (modern day Tanzania) - Pocock with his sample from mostly Kenya (former British East Africa) and northern Tanzania gave an average of 236mm greatest length for adult male leopard skulls from East Africa (vs your max of only 221mm). As noted above this probably reflects the difference in habitat – with most of British East Africa occupying the highland areas of Kenya where leopards are bigger compared to the area of German East Africa being mostly low ground miombo woodland type habitat known for its small leopards.
@chui_
Are the same Chui who posted Leopard measurements and Leopards making impressive kills (e.g. near adult water buffalo kill in Sri Lanka) on the older carnivora forum? Anyway, here is a man holding a Black-Footed Cat, which are among the smallest wild felids.  *This image is copyright of its original author
 (08-31-2019, 07:54 PM)chui_ Wrote: Hello Peter The next days, I'm out. I'll start on a table next week. Might take some time, as it needs to be accurate. Will post it later this week. My proposal is to continue in the leopard extinction thread. That's the one we should use when discussing the essentials of leopards. (09-01-2019, 05:38 AM)peter Wrote:(08-31-2019, 07:54 PM)chui_ Wrote: Hello Peter Overall it looks like, that a lot of discussion and some adjustment to jaguar weight information. Still that one discussion, that where are the biggest leopards in average and differences with other subspecies/populations stayed as open as it was before. Looks like it, that there simply isn´t enough information available to know for sure. But on the other hand, what would life be if no little mysteries time to time :)
Good comparison,Left to right,Smilodon populator,lion,tiger,jaguar,leopard,cougar,cheetah
 *This image is copyright of its original author
(08-28-2019, 10:53 AM)Shadow Wrote:(08-28-2019, 04:51 AM)epaiva Wrote:(08-28-2019, 03:40 AM)GuateGojira Wrote: Wooow! There is a moment were we can see that the animal is about the same size than the boat, and let's not forget that the last part of the tail is below water:It would be great to know the size of the boat @GuateGojira Pardon me if my vision is inaccurate, but there seems to be a discrepancy between this picture and the first picture. Let me put them together:  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author In the first photo, the croc's head appears to be so large so as to occupy roughly half the height of the man with the white shirt, but in the second photo, the head seems just about big enough to consume 2 human heads. Maybe it's the position of the camera in the first pic that makes it look bigger. The reason why I got suspicious was because of the first photo's similarity with a photo-shopped pic that made a croc look bigger than it actually was: The photo-shopped version: https://nation.com.pk/13-Jul-2011/giant-...ts-a-shock, https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/e...hting.html, http://factsfromfiction.blogspot.com/201...oshop.html  *This image is copyright of its original author
(09-01-2019, 06:14 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote:(08-28-2019, 10:53 AM)Shadow Wrote:(08-28-2019, 04:51 AM)epaiva Wrote:(08-28-2019, 03:40 AM)GuateGojira Wrote: Wooow! There is a moment were we can see that the animal is about the same size than the boat, and let's not forget that the last part of the tail is below water:It would be great to know the size of the boat This is a good example how difficult it is to make estimations from photos/videos if there isn´t something to compare with and which is same in both photos or then some object in different photos, which has known measurements to compare. I made a quick photo, where is pointed out, that when comparing to height of railing, length of crocodile head is the same, approximately twice the height of that railing. So if there is some photoshopping in that first photo, where crocodile jumps, then that is quite minor. (09-01-2019, 06:39 PM)Shadow Wrote:(09-01-2019, 06:14 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote:(08-28-2019, 10:53 AM)Shadow Wrote:(08-28-2019, 04:51 AM)epaiva Wrote:(08-28-2019, 03:40 AM)GuateGojira Wrote: Wooow! There is a moment were we can see that the animal is about the same size than the boat, and let's not forget that the last part of the tail is below water:It would be great to know the size of the boat Yes, I was using the people in the 2 photos for comparison, especially the guy with the cream hat and white shirt, who seems small compared to the lady behind him. Merely comparing him to the crocodile would make the croc look huge indeed, but with the railing, and with the other people, including the seemingly tall woman, it becomes different, I wonder if the guy is crouching so as to appear short in the photo: *This image is copyright of its original author
About posting #538 and @BorneanTiger . Yes, those women are for sure standing on bench etc. and are higher because of that.
I put here a picture from study concerning Lolong because Dominator is estimated to be approximately same size. When looking at measurement DLC, Lolong had 70 cm. There were two different ways to measure it (A and B) and difference was 6 mm, so I use 70 cm because it is clear measurement to use.  *This image is copyright of its original author https://www.researchgate.net/publication/265511442_Here_be_a_dragon_exceptional_size_in_a_saltwater_crocodile_Crocodylus_porosus_from_the_Philippines Now in these attachments there is photo of Lolong when it was measured and my best estimation for points to take DCL (1) and then I made a line same length from head of the guy covering eyes of Lolong towards his waist (2). Then a photo with Dominator and same comparison. Of course this is from photos and rough comparison without possibility to be 100% accurate, but for me that looks like to be realistic. Also when looking at maximum width of head, Lolong had it 45 cm. When looking at Dominator and comparing it to people in boat, that looks like to be quite ok. Photo isn´t of course taken straight from behind, a bit diagonal. So after rough self made comparison I would say, that everything looks like to be ok if thinking, that Dominator is really a bit over 6 meters long as estimated.  (08-26-2019, 11:09 PM)chui_ Wrote: As can be clearly seen from the dates of the emails, Dr. Hoojensteijn told me (in 2016) after he had the discussion with you (in 2015) that 10-15kg could be subtracted for meat in the stomach (I simply asked him if it was empty stomach or not – I did not try to tell him what the empty stomach weight should be because I am in no position to tell him). So I don’t see why we must assume it was only 4-5kg since he has also stated up to 15kg, he’s obviously not too sure. We will probably never know exactly how much meat that jag had in the stomach as even those who weighed him can only speculate and arguing about that seems pointless. Well, I have the new answer from Dr Hoojemsteijn at 2019, and he made a clear explanation:  *This image is copyright of its original author I just cover the parts of the phones/email/whatsapp for the Dr privacy, and also cover the comment about the fires in the Amazon region, as that is his personal opinion and while I am 100% agree with him in that, that part is not relevant about the weight of jaguars. So, no such thing as a bait of 10-15 kg, probably he want to say 10-15 pounds. The bait was fish and he says that the amount was very small which match the amount of 4-5 kg that he told me previously. Also, he clarify that the jaguar bottomed the scale of 300 lb (the same problem with the Chitwan tigers) but the estimated weight was accourate. They probably knew that the bottomed scale could record other 15 pounds more, which is normal in some scales (remember that the scales used in Panna could mark other 20 pounds more according with Dr Chundawat). So a figure of c.143 kg "empty" is, after all, accurate. Finally he says that the discussion about the stomach content is futile. Hope this helps to clarify the facts of this big jaguar's weight, which is accepted and certified by the scientists that took it in the field. Fully translation in English for those that can't read Spanish: To start with the discussion, nobody can know the weight of the stomach content of a jaguar, unless he kill it, open the stomach and weight the content, then this is a interminable and bizantine discussion. A jaguar is able to eat that weight in meat [about the 10-15 kg figure], but the bait used do not had even the forth part of that weight (fish). You can thell these to the expert. [i] [i]The scale that we had in that moment at hand, was in pounds and reached the 300 pounds, we place the jaguar to weight him and reached the top of the 300 pounds, with strength, that means that weighed above that, and then the investigator Sandra Cavalcanti, with great experience in capture and evaluation of jaguars in the Pantanal, determined that the weight of that huge jaguar was about the 148 kg, and I was there and trully it was very big. I copy to you a publication from me about the comparison of weights and measurements of jaguars and other publication where I am in the picture with this jaguat thet we tagged 148. [/i][/i] |
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