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ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)
ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)
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ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)
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@Betty & are those laws properly enforced, or like.. at all? How come black market sale is that openly displayed & pictures of it be that easily available on such a huge scale?
Quote: It doesn't seem like you had to go through much trouble to find it (they're not from a string operation ).  (01-25-2018, 01:11 PM)Rishi Wrote: @Betty are the said laws properly enforced? How come black market sale is that open & easily available on that scale? as far as I know, In some forums in China and Vietnam, some people sell animal products. In China, a very influential forum called "Baidu Tieba". A few years ago someone was secretly trading tiger products. Last year, some friends and I Complaints Baidu Tieba who dealt in tiger products and successfully closed some illegal posts. On the surface these transactions have been banned, but privately there are still people trading.  
COPTERS
According to Betty " ... Chinese law banned the sale of tigers, but there are still people trading in the black market ...". Some traders used an influential forum to sell tiger products. After a complaint from Betty and some others, action was taken. Based on the photographs posted by Betty, the effect was limited. In the last few years, I read a number of articles about tiger poachers (India mostly), transport of poached tigers (Nepal and Tibet seem to be important) and the trade in bones and skins. Most poached tigers end up in China, but most of the work is done in what used to be known as the 'Golden triangle' just south of China. Most tiger 'shops' seem to be in one street in a small village in the northwest of Laos (see the article below). Vietnam also was important. Although the Vietnamese authorities were informed by a reliable organisation, no action was taken as far as I know. At least, not in the tiger trade department. They started in the oil industry. In the last months, dozens of high-ranking officials accused of corruption have been tried and sentenced. State banks seem to be next on the list. Based on what I read, it's likely that quite a few party members in Vietnam are involved in the trade of tiger bones as well. When they go down, chances are that things will change to a degree. In Vietnam. Not Laos and Myanmar. Although the struggle needs to continue, the effect will be limited. The reason is demand and the willingness to pay big money. For this reason, poaching will continue. In Russia, about 20-30 Amur tigers are poached every year. Same for Nepal. In India, the number could be significantly higher. In Malaysia and Thailand, tigers stand a chance, but in the other tiger countries it's all but game over. Sumatra has 300-800 tigers (recent estimate). Although progress has been made, poachers still are very active. Although tigers seem to be doing well in some regions for now, it will be a close call. BETTY If you find more reliable information about tiger skins and bones, please use the thread'Wilful Destruction' from now on. We are interested in photographs (but don't overdo it, as quite depressing), research, names and progress. Maybe you can move some of the photographs you posted to the thread mentioned. MUST READ The article below was published in 2015. I'm sure that some of you read it, but chances are that others never heard about it. A bit depressing, but informative: https://news.mongabay.com/2015/03/pleasure-palace-in-lao-facilitates-wildlife-poaching-for-chinese-elites/
@peter
I recently got a PM from a good friend of mine that works with Wildlife Institute of India and he wasnt very pleased with the recent posts by Betty and it's understandable. not a single picture has a story to it and for all we know, they could've been farm animals that were probably tortured. again i hope that's not the case. @Betty, Im not sure if you are aware but topic such as this one and B2 great tiger picture thread are globally known and a lot of people follow it Anonymously. It would suck if you drive off people with pictures like these. looks like Peter has already made that clear so there's no need for me to rant any further. Cheers. Ciao
PANTHERA TIGRIS AMOYENSIS - N
1 - Introduction Just over a century ago, in 1916, Roy Chapman Andrews, working in the American Museum of Natural History in new York, planned an expedition to the mountains of what was then known as the Thibetan frontier and Yunnan. After talking to Captain T. Holcomb of the US Marine Corps, he contacted an American missionary stationed in what was then Futsing (in Fujian Province) in southeast China. His name was Harry Caldwell. Caldwell wrote about a very strange tiger operating in southeast China. This tiger, seen by Caldwell on two occasions, wasn't yellow but blue. Maltese blue, to be precise. Although Chapman Andrews wasn't convinced, he decided to accept the invitation. Before he left for China, he contacted William T. Hornaday, director of the New York Zoological Park in the Bronx. As he wanted the " ... only blue tiger in the world ... ", Hornaday had a trap especially made for Chapman Andrews. In China, Caldwell took him to a narrow ravine: " ... This is where the blue tiger lives ... ". The two goats bleated all afternoon, but the tiger only showed himself just before dusk. Chapman Andrews only had " ... one fleeting glimpse ...", but he saw it was really blue. They didn't get the tiger thast day, but a day later the tiger killed a dog in a village four miles away. The trap Hornaday had made was set, but the tiger managed to get the dog out without touching anything. Three days later, the blue tiger was surprised by a dozen fuel gatherers. The enraged animal leaped to its feet, dashed into the group and killed 3 men with his great paws. Caldwell and Chapman Andrews waited for him near one of the dead man. They only saw his vague outline on the opposing slope before he retreated. It was the last time Chapman Andrews saw the tiger, as he fell ill. After he had recovered from the heat stroke, he left for Hong Kong to outfit the expedition along the Thibetan frontier. Caldwell later wrote he had seen the tiger one more time. He actually touched the nose of the tiger when he fell just in front of him (...). For some reason, the tiger, who had killed 19 humans, decided against an attack. He never saw the blue tiger again. 2 - Maps Futsing is in the north of Fujian Province, close to the coast. It's just north of Taipeh on the isle of Taiwan and about halfway between Sjanghai and Hong Kong.  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author 3 - 'The Trail of the Blue Tiger' Here's the story. I don't know when it was written, but I do know it was published in 1950 in an American magazin. Could have 'True Magazin', but I could be wrong. In order to prevent confusion: I posted the story on AVA a number of years ago.  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author  *This image is copyright of its original author
(01-27-2018, 05:20 AM)Roflcopters Wrote: @peter OK, Well, I will not post any images of the tiger fur and the bones in this thread, hopefully to your satisfaction. 
I am posting peters exact post below -
(01-27-2018, 01:24 PM)Betty Wrote: @GrizzlyClaws 1 - Policy on disturbing videos and photographs There recently was an exchange about disturbing videos and photographs in the captivity thread. Our take is they should be allowed in order to initiate debates. In order to prevent thread pollution, we created the thread 'Wilful Destruction'. 2 - Information about tiger skins and tiger bones You can post on the trade in skins and bones in this thread, but remember we prefer articles over videos and pictures. 3 - Post edited After the post was moved from the captivity thread to this one, it was edited (by peter).
Stoja, You don't qualify any more to live in this forum. We were seriously thinking of putting some curb on these type of posts.
But the way you talked shows you are not mature enough to be part of WildFact. Disagreement is the part of any forum debate, but insulting and abusing mods is not tolerated any way. Get out of here...
V. MAZAK - 'DER TIGER' (third edition, 1983) - STANDING HEIGHT OF CAPTIVE TIGERS
a - Introduction Many years ago, I found a copy of Mazak's great book 'Der Tiger' in a small bookshop somewhere in Amsterdam. Everything you want to know about tigers is there. I read it many times and still consider it a classic. My advice is to buy it when you can. One of the things that stood out was the information about wild Amur tigers. Back then, in the early seventies of the last century, Amur tigers were considered an enigma. There were a lot of rumours, but nobody was able to provide good information. Mazak opened a door that had been closed for a very long time, that is. The reason was that Mazak, able in Russian, had contacted a number of Russian biologists and hunters. Apart from Amur tigers, something else stood out. Mazak's paragraph on the size of tigers ('Die Größe der Tiger') is long (pp. 178-196) and has a lot of information. Quite a bit of it was unique back then. The reason was that he had done a lot of work himself. He not only had measured a lot of skulls, but he had also measured and weighed a number of captive Amur tigers. Apart from that, he collected information about the actual standing height of captive tigers in European zoos. This post is about the standing height of captive tigers in European zoos. Poster 'Betty' had a question about the way the height was measured. I think it's best to let Mazak answer that one himself. b - On the method used to measure the standing height of captive tigers Here's a scan of page 179 of the third edition of Mazak's book. It is about the paragraph in red. Mazak said he had collected information about the actual standing height of captive tigers in a number of European zoos. My guess is that most of the information was collected in the sixties and early seventies of the last century. Here's a summary of the paragraph (in German). A scale was placed in front of the bars. When the tiger was standing directly in front of the scale, the measurement was recorded. Mazak said that every tiger was measured in the same position and in the same way. Applying the method took a bit of time, but it produced results. I tested this method in the facility I visited in the nineties of the last century. I placed a steel tape in front of the cage and watched the tiger for some time. Every time he was right in front of the scale and not moving, a measurement was recorded. In order to prevent errors, I used a margin of 2 cm. Example: when I saw the tiger was about 90 cm. when standing right in front of the scale, I recorded a score of 89-91 cm. When I had 10 scores, I left the room. A keeper instructed by someone else was then asked to repeat the experiment. Next day, there was a follow-up. We only compared the scores when the experiment was finished. As for the conclusion. If different people use this method to measure the actual standing height of one and the same tiger in the same cage, the averages, based on at least 10 scores, compare. With 'compare', I mean that the difference between the averages never exceeded 1 inch (2,54 cm.). The average difference was about 1 cm. only. This to say that the method described by Mazak produced reliable results every time it was used. Based on what I read, I concluded that Mazak himself participated every now and then:  *This image is copyright of its original author c - Standing height of captive tigers in European zoos The table below was posted before. In order to get to more clarity, I decided to add a few lines. Horizontal red lines were used to distinguish between the 5 subspecies. Horizontal blue lines were used to distinguish between males and females. All tigers were measured in the sixties and early seventies of the last century:  *This image is copyright of its original author As to the averages found. In males, the difference between altaica (101,86 cm.), tigris (93,30 cm.), corbetti (88,00 cm.), amoyensis (84,00 cm.) and sumatrae (77,17 cm.) is quite outspoken. In females, the differences between altaica (85,00 cm.), tigris (82,00 cm.), corbetti (79,25 cm.), amoyensis (77,50 cm.) and sumatrae (67,00 cm.) are more limited. Mazak measured 7 adult male Amur tigers. On page 180 of his book, he added the standing height of a very large male Amur tiger in the Duisburg Zoo. This giant, not in the table, was 110,00 cm. at the shoulder. If we add the 3 males I measured in a facility, the average of 11 captive male Amur tigers is 102,41 cm. Some time ago, I also posted information about the actual standing height of what must have been Indochinese tigers (Panthera tigris corbetti) and lions from northern Africa in the Paris Zoo ('Jardin des Plantes'). The average of the Indochinese tigers more or less compared to the averages of P. tigris corbetti in Mazak's table. Male lions from northern Africa were a bit taller (just over 3 feet). They more or less compared to captive male Indian tigers. The differences between males and females are most outspoken in altaica (17,41 cm. or 20,48%) and sumatrae (10,17 cm. or 15,18%). In Indian tigers (11,30 cm. or 13,78%), Indochinese tigers (8,75 cm. or 11,04%) and Chinese tigers (6,50 cm. or 8,39%), the difference was less outspoken. I might have seen male Amur tiger 'Nicolajev' (see the table) in the Rotterdam Zoo ('Blijdorp'). Compared to their neighbours (African lions), the Amur tigers I saw were very old, very tall and very long, but thin as a rail. The keeper told me he had the skin of another captive male Amur tiger at home. As to the very large Duisburg Zoo Amur tiger. He was born in 1965 in the Rotterdam Zoo. Later, he was transported to Duisburg. In 1970, at age 5,5, he was 110,00 cm. at the shoulder (actual standing height) and 320 cm. in total length (measured in a straight line). His weight was estimated at 280-300 kg. (618-662 pounds). His mother was caught in the Ussuri region. The parents of his father were caught in the same region. In the early eighties of the last century, I saw a male Amur tiger in the zoo of what was then West-Berlin. Although taller than the Duisburg Zoo tiger, he wasn't as robust. The parents of this tiger were caught near the Ussuri river. Amur tigresses average 85 cm. at the shoulder, but I saw a few definitely exceeding 3 feet in different circuses. One of them, although fit in all respects, was very close to 440 pounds. Her parents were caught near the Ussuri as well. The trainer told me she wasn't interested in mating. The only male she liked was a very old male tiger caught in the late sixties in northeastern China (Manchuria). The trainer said it was the largest cat he had ever seen. The photograph showed a tiger of prehistoric size, far exceeding the others I had seen. I did my best, but the photograph wasn't for sale. The tiger had saved his life on two occasions. The trainer confirmed what I had seen in facilities and zoos: tigers and brown bears don't mix. Over the years, I saw a lot of captive big cats. An adult male standing 3 feet at the shoulder is impressive. A male of 3.3 is very large and a male of 3.6 is exceptional. I saw 2 male Amur tigers exceeding 3.8. Based on what I saw, I'd say that captive male Amur tigers are the tallest big cats. Wild Namibian lions, however, seem to compare. I'm very interested in the way they were measured. 
My photo. The tigress is at least of average size (150 kg - my estimate).
...on the other hand white bengals are certainly a match for amur tigers when it comes to size.
ON THE SIZE OF AMUR TIGERS
Nice photographs, Amnon. They show that captive Amur tigers are both tall and long, in some cases well over 200 cm. in head and body length. The tiger in the third photograph could compare to the tiger that left these scratch marks:  *This image is copyright of its original author Regional variation in captive Amur tigers (...) I often noticed that Amur tigers in the Czech Republic and Slovakia are large. Apparently, these countries still have quite a few large Amur tigers. Friends who often visit Slovakia and the Czech republic told me they had seen a number of giants. When you see Amur tigers of that size all the time, it no doubt will have an effect. For you, it's clear that captive Amur tigers are the largest big cats by a margin. V. Mazak, who saw a lot of large Amur tigers in the Prague Zoo in the sixties and seventies of the last century, also thought that Amur tigers were the largest big cats. Although I agree with Mazak's conclusions, captive Amur tigers show more individual variation than their wild relatives. In western Europe, I saw a few below par. One of the Amur tigresses I measured and weighed, although very healthy, compared to an average captive Sumatran tigress in nearly all respects. Pronounced variation is also seen in the skull department. Population bottleneck Based on what I read, I'd say that the effects of habitat destruction and overhunting, like in India, were already well visible in the period 1890-1910. By then, tigers had already largely disappeared in many regions. In the period 1910-1940, destruction was everywhere. V.K. Arseniev "... undertook twelve (...) major scientific expeditions in the Russian Far East between 1902 and 1930 and authored some sixty works on the geography and ethnography. Among these, 'Dersu the trapper' has earned a privileged place in Russian literature ... " (foreword of the English reprint of 'Dersu the Trapper', published in 1996). Arseniev arrived in the Russian Far East in 1900, three years after the Trans-Siberian Railway had been completed. Between 1902 and 1907, he undertook three surveying expeditions described in 'Dersu the trapper'. Arseniev and Dersu, who met in 1906 and parted in 1908, both knew that the vast wilderness they saw would quickly disappear. According to Dersu: " ... All round soon all game end ... Me think ten years, no more wapiti, no more sable, no more squirrel, all gone ... " (Preface, pp. vii). That was in 1907-1908 (...). A few decades later, when there were less than 50 wild Amur tigers left, Kaplanov rang the bell. Some years later, the Sovjet authorities decided to protect Amur tigers. Loss of size In the period they walked the edge, Amur tigers might have produced a number of exceptional individuals. Although not one was confirmed by a biologist, there were quite a few reports about Amur tigers well exceeding 650 pounds in the period 1940-1970 (see 'Der Tiger', V. Mazak, 1983, and 'Die Säugetiere der Sowjet-Union', V.G. Heptner and A.A. Sludskij, German translation, 1980, Band III). Remarkable, as wild tigers facing pressure and a loss of numbers often quickly respond by losing size. In the sixties of the last century, when the situation had somewhat improved, it was decided to capture a limited number of cubs every year. Quite a few of these were sent to zoos in countries in eastern and central Europe, then occupied by the former Sovjet-Union. Some of them grew to a very large size. For some reason, zoos in the former Czecho-Slovakia in particular often had large Amur tigers. Some years ago, I read an article in which reports about large Amur tigers were discussed. Apart from the 560-pound male shot near the Korean border in 1911 by Baikov, all of them were classified as 'unreliable'. The biologists involved also noticed a decline in size after 1970. Remarkable, as the situation in the Russian Far East had improved quite a bit in the sixties and seventies. Based on the information I had back then, I got to a similar conclusion on Amur tigers in zoos in western Europe in the late eighties of the last century. If the information on wild and captive Amur tigers is combined, coincidence seems unlikely. In the first decade of this century, a table with information on the size of wild Amur tigers was published. Although it, to a degree, was polluted by a number of young adults and 'problem tigers', the conclusion on the loss of size was confirmed. Not one of the males exceeded 200 kg. In the years that followed, more large males have been measured and weighed. Although some of them exceeded 200 kg., it wasn't by much. Questions Although some biologists expressed doubts about the alleged size of Amur tigers in the recent past, wild males shot and weighed before, say, 1940, averaged about 475 pounds. Today, according to Miquelle, males average 420-430 pounds. They also seem a bit shorter than before the population bottleneck. The first question is if the conclusions on size are right, as the samples are very small. The second question is why wild Amur tigers didn't lose size in the period they walked the edge but nearly half a century later, when the situation had improved and the number of wild tigers had increased. The third question is why facilities in the Czech Republic and Slovakia in particular seem to have more large Amur tigers than elsewhere. As it isn't easy to answer the first two questions, I propose to start with the third question. Are captive Amur tigers in the Czech Republic and Slovakia as large as they seem? Are they larger than those in western Europe and the US? Based on what I know, I think they are. The most likely reason is they got Amur tigers in the period before they lost size. Another reason is they were not mixed. What's your opinion, Amnon? |
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