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On the connection between (the consumption of) wildlife products and disease

Netherlands peter Offline
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#1
( This post was last modified: 03-21-2020, 10:13 AM by Rishi )

a - Introduction

The, often illegal, trade in wildlife products is enormous. Experts think the value is about $20 billion a year. According to them, there are millions of snares in the forests in southeastern Asia. It isn't much different in many parts of Africa. 

Snares do not distinguish between animals. If an animal is caught, it's doomed.   

One direct result of poaching is empty forests. Another is some species face extinction. In one decade only, thousands of tigers have been poached in Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Myanmar, Thailand, Sumatra and Malaysia. In Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia, tigers are now gone. In Malaysia, tigers are severely threatened. Same for Myanmar and Sumatra.  

Poaching also affects humans in that direct contact and consumption of wild animals not seldom results in disease. In Africa, a direct connection between the consumption of wild animals and viruses affecting humans has been proven. In Asia, it isn't any different.  

b - Thread purpose

The aim of this thread is to collect good information about the connection between poaching, trafficking and disease. Anything goes, provided it results in knowledge and understanding.
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United Arab Emirates BorneanTiger Offline
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( This post was last modified: 03-13-2020, 11:04 PM by BorneanTiger )

(03-12-2020, 04:46 AM)peter Wrote: f - Geneva

...

Kane talked to a number of representatives of wildlife organisations. Evidence was presented and everyone agreed something has to be done. But the Chinese have a somewhat different opinion and their lobby is not to be underestimated. Meaning decisions on countries ignoring international laws and agreements again were postponed. Also meaning those involved in poaching and trafficking can continue. Finally meaning tigers in southeast Asia have no future.  

g - Conclusions

The demand for tiger 'products' (in China in particular) is as strong as ever, if not more so. It's one of the flipsides of economic growth. It's clear that the policy regarding facilities breeding tigers and countries facilitating criminal organisations does not have a postive effect on the number of wild tigers. The opposite is true. In the last decade, the number of wild tigers has been halved. 

Tigers are now gone in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia and severely threatened in Sumatra, Malaysia and Burma. Recent information says tigers are poached in India, Nepal and Russia as well. It is to be expected that the pressure in these countries will significantly increase in the near future. As all of them, in contrast to traffickers, struggle with inadequate means, it's more than likely the target regarding the number of wild tigers (in 2022) will prove to be a bridge too far.    

Meaning those involved in tiger conservation have failed. Again. I'm, to be clear, not referring to rangers and field biologists, but to those involved in policies, agreements and decisions. The time for change has arrived, that is. 

h - Proposals

Based on what we saw in the last two decades, my first proposal is to abandon the strategy to protect tigers in regions where poachers are not opposed because of a lack of means or political will. I'm referring to regions where tigers, and many other predators, are all but gone. In these regions, organisations involved in tiger conservation have been unable to realize their goals. One could also conclude they're no match for the Chinese and those involved in poaching.  

...

My third proposal is to interact with their enemies. Both conservationists and those interested in tiger products profit from a decent number of protected reserves and a large population of tigers. Everyone interested in tigers knows captive-bred tigers do not compare to their wild relatives. Not even close.

A surprising conclusion to finish the post? I agree. But you know as well as I do that most humans, apart from a few exceptions (referring to fundamentalists in particular), are not that interested in, ehhh, ideals. The days people were prepared to fight for what they thought was right seem to be gone. Today, most of us are driven by something different. I'm referring to security and things like that, but if you say money I would agree right away. Meaning those interested in tigers (referring to those interested in conservation and their opponents) need to find common ground. 

If they fail, chances are conservationists and those opposing them will clash sooner or later. Would a more or less permanent all-out in a national park or a tiger reserve (we seem to be heading that way) be a solution for those making their home in the natural world? 

I'd like to ask about the issue of money and the poachers that kill wild animals like tigers for profits. Considering that the coronavirus has forced Chinese authorities to ban the consumption and trade of wild animals, and close down those cruel and unhygienic markets where wild and domestic animals alike were being traded and slaughtered (refer to what was being discussed in this thread for instance), besides increasing the risk of a global recession (partly by hitting the demand for oil, and leading to the current dispute between 2 major oil producers, which in itself has serious implications for the global economy), shouldn't poachers or their customers, who consume illegal animal products like tiger parts, themselves be in trouble now?
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India sanjay Offline
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China is not only consumer of these things, Many south east country also have demands. Pandemic like coronavirus is temporary halt. Let it settle and it will emerge again. Sometime I think John Varty is doing better.
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United Arab Emirates BorneanTiger Offline
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( This post was last modified: 03-12-2020, 08:56 PM by BorneanTiger )

(03-12-2020, 06:21 PM)sanjay Wrote: China is not only consumer of these things, Many south east country also have demands. Pandemic like coronavirus is temporary halt. Let it settle and it will emerge again. Sometime I think John Varty is doing better.

The pandemic may be temporary, but it has far-ranging consequences. Not only has tourism towards Southeast Asia, especially by Chinese tourists, taken a hit, but now there are serious worries for the global economy, namely the oil dispute, and an increased risk of recession, which at least theoretically means that customers of poachers or the wildlife trade will be in financial trouble, and therefore the poachers or wildlife traders themselves: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/m...o-reassurehttps://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new...583864.cms
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United States Pckts Offline
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( This post was last modified: 03-15-2020, 08:42 PM by Pckts )

China also put a ban on all animal trade goods because of this. Although I'm one to think that the virus is being blown a bit out of proportion. But hopefully it opens our eyes a bit more to understanding that these animals dont belong near most of us and they can transmit new pathogens that are deadly. 
This is really a case of us expanding too far looking for resources instead of conservation.
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
-Oscar Wilde
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Netherlands peter Offline
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( This post was last modified: 03-21-2020, 10:10 AM by Rishi )

BORNEAN TIGER AND PC

The debate on the, possible, connection between the trade in wild animals and diseases is interesting. My proposal is to start a new thread and continue over there. This thread is about wild tigers.
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Netherlands peter Offline
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( This post was last modified: 03-21-2020, 10:13 AM by Rishi )

RECENT INFORMATION ABOUT THE SITUATION IN SOUTHEAST ASIA

a - Documentary

Yesterday, a very recent (2020) documentary about traffickers was broadcasted on BBC 2. The Laura Warner documentary 'Tigers: Hunting the Traffickers' is both interesting and discouraging. If you get a chance to watch it, don't hesitate. 

b - Malaysia 

Aldo Kane is a former Royal Marine who knows about warfare. He also knows about tigers, the trade in tiger products and traffickers and trained anti-poaching teams in Malaysia. In that country, the remaining tigers (less than 200 today) are targeted by professional poachers armed with knowledge and serious weapons. Opposing them is difficult. I'm not saying it is a lost battle, but it's close. The snares are lethal. Tigers just don't stand a chance. 

c - Thailand

Thailand has 44 zoos (and/or private facilities) and all of them have tigers. Meaning something is going on. Those involved in tiger conservation agree it's more than likely that some zoos and facilities breed tigers for export. The hard part is finding evidence. It takes knowledge, skill, contacts and courage to collect evidence that will stand in court. Meaning you need people with access to good local information. These 'wildlife detectives' are of vital importance. The detective who featured in the documentary is doing an outstanding job. Hunting traffickers and those they bribed is dangerous. 

d - Laos

Tigertraffickingwise, Laos compares to a kind of store. It has both frozen cubs kept in fridges and live adult tigers in all kinds of 'facilities'. Some of them attract visitors, but others are used to store tigers. They're fattened up until they're ready to be transported. To Vietnam. 

e - Vietnam

In this country, wild and captive-bred tigers are sold. A few years ago, the focus was on tiger bones and the production of a kind of glue. Today, clients want more. According to the 'wildlife detective', live tigers are transported to villas (...) that have cages (...). After the client has made a choice, the victim is killed and consumed. Consumed? Yes. Rumour has it tiger meat and tiger bones will result in more, ehhh, vigour and drive.

f - Geneva

When hard evidence has been collected, it is presented to representatives of wildlife organisations. Organisations saying they want to save wild tigers. There are quite a few and most of them have the means to do something. Once or twice a year, they meet in Geneva (Switzerland) to talk tiger and do decisions on traffickers, criminal organisations and countries hosting these organisations. 

Kane talked to a number of representatives of wildlife organisations. Evidence was presented and everyone agreed something has to be done. But the Chinese have a somewhat different opinion and their lobby is not to be underestimated. Meaning decisions on countries ignoring international laws and agreements again were postponed. Also meaning those involved in poaching and trafficking can continue. Finally meaning tigers in southeast Asia have no future.  

g - Conclusions

The demand for tiger 'products' (in China in particular) is as strong as ever, if not more so. It's one of the flipsides of economic growth. It's clear that the policy regarding facilities breeding tigers and countries facilitating criminal organisations does not have a postive effect on the number of wild tigers. The opposite is true. In the last decade, the number of wild tigers has been halved. 

Tigers are now gone in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia and severely threatened in Sumatra, Malaysia and Burma. Recent information says tigers are poached in India, Nepal and Russia as well. It is to be expected that the pressure in these countries will significantly increase in the near future. As all of them, in contrast to traffickers, struggle with inadequate means, it's more than likely the target regarding the number of wild tigers (in 2022) will prove to be a bridge too far.    

Meaning those involved in tiger conservation have failed. Again. I'm, to be clear, not referring to rangers and field biologists, but to those involved in policies, agreements and decisions. The time for change has arrived, that is. 

h - Proposals

Based on what we saw in the last two decades, my first proposal is to abandon the strategy to protect tigers in regions where poachers are not opposed because of a lack of means or political will. I'm referring to regions where tigers, and many other predators, are all but gone. In these regions, organisations involved in tiger conservation have been unable to realize their goals. One could also conclude they're no match for the Chinese and those involved in poaching.  

My second proposal is to focus on a few regions suited for tigers. Regions supported by both national organisations and international organisations involved in conservation, that is. The first aim is to connect the remaining parks and reserves in order to avoid problems with those interested in developing these regions. The second aim is to enlarge these core regions. A large population (at least 500 adults) is needed to prevent gene loss and inbreeding. Some parts of these regions could be used to attract visitors. 

My third proposal is to interact with their enemies. Both conservationists and those interested in tiger products profit from a decent number of protected reserves and a large population of tigers. Everyone interested in tigers knows captive-bred tigers do not compare to their wild relatives. Not even close.

A surprising conclusion to finish the post? I agree. But you know as well as I do that most humans, apart from a few exceptions (referring to fundamentalists in particular), are not that interested in, ehhh, ideals. The days people were prepared to fight for what they thought was right seem to be gone. Today, most of us are driven by something different. I'm referring to security and things like that, but if you say money I would agree right away. Meaning those interested in tigers (referring to those interested in conservation and their opponents) need to find common ground. 

If they fail, chances are conservationists and those opposing them will clash sooner or later. Would a more or less permanent all-out in a national park or a tiger reserve (we seem to be heading that way) be a solution for those making their home in the natural world? 

i - Debate

It is about the last two sentences of the previous paragraph. Do you think we should be prepared to make room for those living in the emerald forest with no strings attached (including dangerous animals), or should we go for a money-based conservation model already tested in, for instance, Australia (saltwater crocs) or South Africa (canned hunts) right away? 

And what's your advice for those involved in tiger conservation at the level of decisions?

We could do a smallish debate. If interested, remember respect is crucial no matter what.
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United States Pckts Offline
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Scientists link outbreaks such as Covid-19 to biodiversity loss
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/scientists-link-outbreaks-such-as-covid-19-to-biodiversity-loss/story-BJmeOJwYYRQkbK5r7cCwXP.html?fbclid=IwAR1WBCye65qb4dwuVF_8-iH4lVm35FDwYu1PCTu05K-u_ShMPRAdVQ3l0RI
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
-Oscar Wilde
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Netherlands peter Offline
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( This post was last modified: 03-17-2020, 12:31 AM by peter )

(03-16-2020, 09:55 PM)Pckts Wrote: Scientists link outbreaks such as Covid-19 to biodiversity loss
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/scientists-link-outbreaks-such-as-covid-19-to-biodiversity-loss/story-BJmeOJwYYRQkbK5r7cCwXP.html?fbclid=IwAR1WBCye65qb4dwuVF_8-iH4lVm35FDwYu1PCTu05K-u_ShMPRAdVQ3l0RI

Those who know agree there is a very strong connection between the loss of forests, climate change and the trade in wildlife products on one hand and outbreaks of, often unknown, infectuous diseases (like viruses) on the other hand. There's no question that pollution, the loss of biodiversity, climate change and the outbreaks of diseases are very real threats to humanity. So much so, they need to be addressed at once.  

Interesting and solid information, PC. Good find.
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United States Greatearth Offline
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(03-12-2020, 06:33 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote:
(03-12-2020, 06:21 PM)sanjay Wrote:
(03-12-2020, 06:21 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote: I'd like to ask about the issue of money and the poachers that kill wild animals like tigers for profits. Considering that the coronavirus has forced Chinese authorities to ban the consumption and trade of wild animals, and close down those cruel and unhygienic markets where wild and domestic animals alike were being traded and slaughtered (refer to what was being discussed in this thread for instance), besides increasing the risk of a global recession (partly by hitting the demand for oil, and leading to the current dispute between 2 major oil producers, which in itself has serious implications for the global economy), shouldn't poachers or their customers, who consume illegal animal products like tiger parts, themselves be in trouble now?

China is not only consumer of these things, Many south east country also have demands. Pandemic like coronavirus is temporary halt. Let it settle and it will emerge again. Sometime I think John Varty is doing better.

The pandemic may be temporary, but it has far-ranging consequences. Not only has tourism towards Southeast Asia, especially by Chinese tourists, taken a hit, but now there are serious worries for the global economy, namely the oil dispute, and an increased risk of recession, which at least theoretically means that customers of poachers or the wildlife trade will be in financial trouble, and therefore the poachers or wildlife traders themselves: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/m...o-reassurehttps://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new...583864.cms
Vietnam is worse as China. The main trouble of the Indochinese tiger and Malayan tiger are that disgusting Vietnamese poachers are illegally entering other Indochinese countries to poach tigers. I heard about they are using river to cross border. The most people don't even know what vietnam is doing because China is receiving every blame just like Asia is receiving all of blame even though Central/South America are worse as Asia. However, the main problems in Southeast Asia is poverty and people are setting snares for food/money.
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United Arab Emirates BorneanTiger Offline
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(03-16-2020, 05:45 PM)peter Wrote: BORNEAN TIGER AND PC

The debate on the, possible, connection between the trade in wild animals and diseases is interesting. My proposal is to start a new thread and continue over there. This thread is about wild tigers. 

RISHI

Thanks for moving a copy of the post on the maximum size of animals hunted by tigers to this thread. Can you move the posts of Bornean Tiger and PC on the virus and the trade in wild animals to the new thread? It will be created today.

Has the new thread been made yet?
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United Arab Emirates BorneanTiger Offline
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( This post was last modified: 03-17-2020, 05:29 PM by Rishi )

@Greatearth Watch your language. Though it's true that poaching, or the consumption of body parts of animals like tigers, is a problem in Asia, there's also leaders in the West whose actions show that they're is more concerned about making money than the protecting the environment (such as when American govt. overhauled the Endangered Species Act of 1973 last year, to allow economic factors to be considered before protecting threatened species).
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Netherlands peter Offline
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( This post was last modified: 03-17-2020, 05:15 PM by peter )

(03-17-2020, 11:21 AM)BorneanTiger Wrote:
(03-16-2020, 05:45 PM)peter Wrote: BORNEAN TIGER AND PC

The debate on the, possible, connection between the trade in wild animals and diseases is interesting. My proposal is to start a new thread and continue over there. This thread is about wild tigers. 

RISHI

Thanks for moving a copy of the post on the maximum size of animals hunted by tigers to this thread. Can you move the posts of Bornean Tiger and PC on the virus and the trade in wild animals to the new thread? It will be created today.

Has the new thread been made yet?

Yes. It's in 'Miscellaneous'.
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Netherlands peter Offline
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( This post was last modified: 03-17-2020, 06:05 PM by peter )

(03-17-2020, 01:23 PM)BorneanTiger Wrote: @Greatearth Watch your language. Though it's true that poaching, or the consumption of body parts of animals like tigers, is a problem in Asia, there's also a man in the West whose actions show that he is more concerned about making money than the protecting the environment (such as when he overhauled the Endangered Species Act of 1973 last year, to allow economic factors to be considered before protecting threatened species), and has made a mockery of his country in front of the World by making statements like these (note his choice of words, which are similar to yours): https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/stat...2093169664https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/11/polit...index.html

This forum is about the plight of those making their home in the natural world. They're struggling just about everywhere. The reason is destruction caused by humans. Although conservation has been on the political agenda for some time, the consequences of destruction (referring to climate change and the outbreak of infectuous diseases) have been underestimated by many. 

The outbreak of the coronavirus has resulted in a world-wide crisis. There's no doubt it will have a serious effect on economic growth. In order to prevent more calamities, choices will have to be made. One of the issues that has to be addressed as soon as possible is the illegal trade in wild animals. This time, those opposing measures have no option but to support far-reaching decisions.    

Our (referring to Wildfact) policy regarding the problems described above (and in post 2,447) is to refrain from generalisations and politics. One reason is a lack of specific and accurate information. Another is we want to prevent a bad climate. Wildfact has members from all over the globe and our guess is all of them oppose the destruction of the natural world. If there is a debate, the aim is to focus on issues and facts, not something else (like nationality).   

In other words: we agree with BorneanTiger. No more accusations and generalisations, that is. 

Those interested in a debate about the causes and consequences of destruction can post in the thread that was created yesterday. This thread is about wild tigers.
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Canada Kingtheropod Offline
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China has made eating wild animals illegal after the coronavirus outbreak. But ending the trade won't be easy

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/05/asia/chin...index.html

Looks like this is a start, but more is needed!
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