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Modern weights and measurements on wild tigers

Germany Yusuf Offline
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@GuateGojira 

Is this true? I mean the claim....

*This image is copyright of its original author


They said that the Tiger from Brander were gorged.
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United States Pckts Offline
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(09-22-2020, 09:30 PM)Yusuf Wrote: @GuateGojira 

Is this true? I mean the claim....

*This image is copyright of its original author


They said that the Tiger from Brander were gorged.

From Brander's actual book

Wild Animals in C. India

A.A. Dunbar Brander

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


I have a challenge for you if you're up for it?
You should see if you can find a 600lb Lion with body measurements and we can compare him to the 600lb'er Brander mentions. 
Make sure you do your best to find not only the animal but information on how it was obtained and the protocol used.
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Scout Offline
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( This post was last modified: 09-24-2020, 12:27 PM by Scout )

There is no doubt that these Kaziranga males are huge. Just compare them to these cows they catch. Just gigantic

https://youtu.be/DOtSnxrwcKc

https://youtu.be/XH7jB1Ky9sk


 First one is KTZ-085, now renamed to KAZI-53. Second one is KAZI-59, popularly known as "Shere Khan".

For comparison, here is what the size of cows would have been (definitely not adult tho)
   

No doubt that Kaziranga tigers would be biggest, both in max weight and average
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Scout Offline
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( This post was last modified: 09-24-2020, 12:52 PM by Scout )

(09-22-2020, 09:30 PM)Yusuf Wrote: @GuateGojira 

Is this true? I mean the claim....

*This image is copyright of its original author


They said that the Tiger from Brander were gorged.

Now, Brander's data is real and reliable, but im pretty sure that there were many subadults. 
These subadults were yet to put on a lot of muscle mass and bulk. 

Here is a paper from Dr. Yadvendradev Jhala, he is a leading big cats expert from India
https://www.researchgate.net/publication...ing_Tigers

According to this paper, the weight of tigers varies as following with age - 

Juveniles - 1 to 2 yo = 50-120kgs
Subadults - 2 to 3 yo = 130-170kgs
Young adults - 3.5 to 5yo, They keep on accumulating mass
Adults - 6 yo and above = 200-260kgs

   

   

   

   

   

   


Hence its very much possible that there were subadults in his data
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Scout Offline
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By the way, how is this comparison? 

   


From left
1. Waghdoh, one of the biggest tigers from India
2. Shere Khan aka KAZI-59 from Kaziranga
3. B2, another heavyweight from Bandhavgarh
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Ashutosh Offline
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@Scout, I am sorry but none of those tigers are in the exceptional category, they are impressive but not exceptional in terms of size. Waghdoh has never been classified as the biggest tiger in India.

If you are looking for the exceptional ones, you have the enormous male from Rajaji, hairyfoot from Panna, Kaziranga male shifted to Manas, A few other Kaziranga males like Kzt 085, kzt 083, kzt 023 and couple of really big ones from Terai. Pictures of all the above mentioned males are available on wildfact itself.
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Scout Offline
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( This post was last modified: 09-24-2020, 03:52 PM by Scout )

(09-24-2020, 01:56 PM)Ashutosh Wrote: @Scout, I am sorry but none of those tigers are in the exceptional category, they are impressive but not exceptional in terms of size. Waghdoh has never been classified as the biggest tiger in India.

If you are looking for the exceptional ones, you have the enormous male from Rajaji, hairyfoot from Panna, Kaziranga male shifted to Manas, A few other Kaziranga males like Kzt 085, kzt 083, kzt 023 and couple of really big ones from Terai. Pictures of all the above mentioned males are available on wildfact itself.

Im pretty sure that Waghdoh hasnt gained his reputation for nothing. Its true that we have no weight information, but he is big otherwise why would people say he is big?

And same goes for KAZI-59
Here he can be seen hunting cows - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH7jB1Ky9sk

Just as big as KTZ-085 here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOtSnxrwcKc

KAZI-59
 
   


KTZ-085 for comparison - 

   
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Rishi Offline
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( This post was last modified: 09-24-2020, 04:11 PM by Rishi )

(09-24-2020, 03:40 PM)Scout Wrote:
(09-24-2020, 01:56 PM)Ashutosh Wrote: @Scout, I am sorry but none of those tigers are in the exceptional category, they are impressive but not exceptional in terms of size. Waghdoh has never been classified as the biggest tiger in India.

If you are looking for the exceptional ones, you have the enormous male from Rajaji, hairyfoot from Panna, Kaziranga male shifted to Manas, A few other Kaziranga males like Kzt 085, kzt 083, kzt 023 and couple of really big ones from Terai. Pictures of all the above mentioned males are available on wildfact itself.

Im pretty sure that Waghdoh hasnt gained his reputation for nothing. Its true that we have no weight information, but he is big otherwise why would people say he is big?

And same goes for KAZI-59
Here he can be seen hunting cows - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH7jB1Ky9sk

Just as big as KTZ-085 here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOtSnxrwcKc

Please don't share same link multiple times... And not only they were at different distances from their respective preys, unless we can confirm those cows where of same size we can't compare fairly, can we?

Wagdoh is(was) actually very stocky & stout. People who have seen many tigers that can compare him to other famous males, have told that he's big but not as big as many of his peers.
And recently we got a photo of him crossing railway line, by which his body length measured out to be less than 6ft (I think it's in this thread only).
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Scout Offline
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(09-24-2020, 04:07 PM)Rishi Wrote:
(09-24-2020, 03:40 PM)Scout Wrote:
(09-24-2020, 01:56 PM)Ashutosh Wrote: @Scout, I am sorry but none of those tigers are in the exceptional category, they are impressive but not exceptional in terms of size. Waghdoh has never been classified as the biggest tiger in India.

If you are looking for the exceptional ones, you have the enormous male from Rajaji, hairyfoot from Panna, Kaziranga male shifted to Manas, A few other Kaziranga males like Kzt 085, kzt 083, kzt 023 and couple of really big ones from Terai. Pictures of all the above mentioned males are available on wildfact itself.

Im pretty sure that Waghdoh hasnt gained his reputation for nothing. Its true that we have no weight information, but he is big otherwise why would people say he is big?

And same goes for KAZI-59
Here he can be seen hunting cows - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH7jB1Ky9sk

Just as big as KTZ-085 here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOtSnxrwcKc

Please don't share same link multiple times... And not only they were at different distances from their respective preys, unless we can confirm those cows where of same size we can't compare fairly, can we?

Wagdoh is(was) actually very stocky & stout. People who have seen many tigers that can compare him to other famous males, have told that he's big but not as big as many of his peers.
And recently we got a photo of him crossing railway line, by which his body length measured out to be less than 6ft (I think it's in this thread only).
What do you suggest for Waghdoh's weight? I would say 520-550lbs
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Finland Shadow Offline
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( This post was last modified: 09-24-2020, 05:31 PM by Shadow )

(09-24-2020, 04:07 PM)Rishi Wrote:
(09-24-2020, 03:40 PM)Scout Wrote:
(09-24-2020, 01:56 PM)Ashutosh Wrote: @Scout, I am sorry but none of those tigers are in the exceptional category, they are impressive but not exceptional in terms of size. Waghdoh has never been classified as the biggest tiger in India.

If you are looking for the exceptional ones, you have the enormous male from Rajaji, hairyfoot from Panna, Kaziranga male shifted to Manas, A few other Kaziranga males like Kzt 085, kzt 083, kzt 023 and couple of really big ones from Terai. Pictures of all the above mentioned males are available on wildfact itself.

Im pretty sure that Waghdoh hasnt gained his reputation for nothing. Its true that we have no weight information, but he is big otherwise why would people say he is big?

And same goes for KAZI-59
Here he can be seen hunting cows - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH7jB1Ky9sk

Just as big as KTZ-085 here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOtSnxrwcKc

Please don't share same link multiple times... And not only they were at different distances from their respective preys, unless we can confirm those cows where of same size we can't compare fairly, can we?

Wagdoh is(was) actually very stocky & stout. People who have seen many tigers that can compare him to other famous males, have told that he's big but not as big as many of his peers.
And recently we got a photo of him crossing railway line, by which his body length measured out to be less than 6ft (I think it's in this thread only).

Since there is so much speculation of sizes from photos, which are pretty useless usually, imo, I put here some remarks to think about.

So this railway photo concerning Wagdoh.

First, it´s very difficult to make exact estimation even from this photo since it´s so 2-dimensional, it´s quite impossible to know from where should be measured distance between rails so, that it would be at same level exactly as Wagdoh is. But I tried to do it so, that it would be at least approximately right. So when I measured that distance between inner sides of rails, which is Indian standard 1676 mm and after it measuring body without tail for obvious reasons, I got result 1892 mm. Obviously if he would be measured between the pegs as usually, he would be more stretched, imo, and length would be more than that.

Then again as I have drawn above, this kind of 2-dimensional photo has problems and can make an illusion of the position. If Wagdoh is here even slightly so, that backside further than head, he looks a bit shorter than he is. That red line above is on my screen 26 mm and line below is 25 mm. Still that slightly longer line would look shorter in photo if taken from direction which is marked with black arrow. So longer would look shorter.

Based on this photo body lenght of Wagdoh could be anything in between maybe 180-210 cm, if he would be measured properly while tranquilazed.

I´m very critical to all photos shared with claims of "huge" this and that if there isn´t something really good to compare with. Estimations can be made, but usually those are rough. Huge can be in reality average, just a nice photo showing muscles good.

Then again this photo is good in that way, that some other poster included that photo of Wagdoh in his prime side by side. He is now 17 years old if I remember right(?). So when people have seen him for instance 4-5 years ago, they haven´t seen him in his prime not to mention if some people have seen him during last 1-2 years and then saying, that "oh, he is small in comparison with this and that tiger". 

People tend to have short memory and without a doubt reputation of Wagdoh is based on his size in his prime condition. Without seeing him right next to some other big one, it´s quite impossible to say too good estimations who is bigger or smaller so, that someone could be 100% sure. Also in Wildfact posters have had many arguments concerning it, that which tiger is bigger than some other. And both sides very sure, that being right and other poster wrong. One reason why I prefer to see studies and confirmed measurements and weights.

What comes to Wagdoh, even though there is no tiger which could be called the biggest tiger of India without a doubt, Wagdoh has been often called maybe the biggest tiger of India etc. I haven´t seen anyone proving otherwise in any reliable way, of course it can´t be proven that there wouldn´t have been some bigger tiger. It depends from whom is asked as far as I have seen. 

Anyway here is the photo to show what I meant and why I´m very cautious with photos.

Attached Files Image(s)
   
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Ashutosh Offline
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( This post was last modified: 09-24-2020, 05:16 PM by Ashutosh )

@Scout, you need to remember that tigers from Central India gain their reputation because of various and continuous  sightings as compared to Kaziranga or Terai. Now, Waghdoh is an impressive male, no doubt. His neck and shoulder are massive and the facial injury lends such a menacing look to him. So, back in late 2000s, he was called largest tiger you could see because he was in the tourist zone in Tadoba (which is a very good park for tiger sightings).

I will give you two comparable examples. The photos below are of the famous Rajaji male from the same time as Waghdoh in his absolute prime and of another unknown male from Terai. Other than these photos, most people (not scientists working with WII) don’t have much information on them, and I highly doubt many people have even seen them. So, no one is going to call any of them the largest tiger in India especially if people can’t find them. But, be a judge for yourself:

   

   
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Rishi Offline
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(09-24-2020, 05:08 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(09-24-2020, 04:07 PM)Rishi Wrote:
(09-24-2020, 03:40 PM)Scout Wrote:
(09-24-2020, 01:56 PM)Ashutosh Wrote: @Scout, I am sorry but none of those tigers are in the exceptional category, they are impressive but not exceptional in terms of size. Waghdoh has never been classified as the biggest tiger in India.

If you are looking for the exceptional ones, you have the enormous male from Rajaji, hairyfoot from Panna, Kaziranga male shifted to Manas, A few other Kaziranga males like Kzt 085, kzt 083, kzt 023 and couple of really big ones from Terai. Pictures of all the above mentioned males are available on wildfact itself.

Im pretty sure that Waghdoh hasnt gained his reputation for nothing. Its true that we have no weight information, but he is big otherwise why would people say he is big?

And same goes for KAZI-59
Here he can be seen hunting cows - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH7jB1Ky9sk

Just as big as KTZ-085 here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOtSnxrwcKc

Please don't share same link multiple times... And not only they were at different distances from their respective preys, unless we can confirm those cows where of same size we can't compare fairly, can we?

Wagdoh is(was) actually very stocky & stout. People who have seen many tigers that can compare him to other famous males, have told that he's big but not as big as many of his peers.
And recently we got a photo of him crossing railway line, by which his body length measured out to be less than 6ft (I think it's in this thread only).

Since there is so much speculation of sizes from photos, which are pretty useless usually, imo, I put here some remarks to think about.

So this railway photo concerning Wagdoh.

First, it´s very difficult to make exact estimation even from this photo since it´s so 2-dimensional, it´s quite impossible to know from where should be measured distance between rails so, that it would be at same level exactly as Wagdoh is. But I tried to do it so, that it would be at least approximately right. So when I measured that distance between inner sides of rails, which is Indian standard 1676 mm and after it measuring body without tail for obvious reasons, I got result 1892 mm. Obviously if he would be measured between the pegs as usually, he would be more stretched, imo and he could be longer.

Then again as I have drawn above, this kind of 2-dimensional photo has problems and can make an illusion of the position. If Wagdoh is here even slightly so, that backside further than head, he looks a bit shorter than he is. That red line above is on my screen 26 mm and line below is 25 mm. Still that slightly longer line would look shorter in photo if taken from direction which is marked with black arrow. So longer would look shorter.

Based on this photo body lenght of Wagdoh could be anything in between maybe 180-210 cm, if he would be measured properly while tranquilazed.

I´m very critical to all photos shared with claims of "huge" this and that if there isn´t something really good to compare with. Estimations can be made, but usually those are rough. Huge can be in reality average, just a nice photo showing muscles good.

Then again this photo is good in that way, that some other poster included that photo of Wagdoh in his prime side by side. He is now 17 years old if I remember right(?). So when people have seen him for instance 4-5 years ago, they haven´t seen him in his prime not to mention if some people have seen him during last 1-2 years and then saying, that "oh, he is small in comparison with this and that tiger". 

People tend to have short memory and without a doubt reputation of Wagdoh is base on his size in his prime condition. Without seeing him right next to some other big one, it´s quite impossible to say too good estimations who is bigger or smaller so, that someone could be 100% sure. Also in Wildfact posters have had many arguments concerning it, that which tiger is bigger than some other. And both sides very sure, that being right and other poster right. One reason why I prefer to see studies and confirmed measurements and weights.

What comes to Wagdoh, even though there is no tiger which could be called the biggest tiger of India without a doubt, Wagdoh has been often called maybe the biggest tiger of India etc. I haven´t seen anyone proving otherwise in any reliable way, of course it can´t be proven that there wouldn´t have been some bigger tiger. It depends from whom is asked as far as I have seen. 

Anyway here is the photo to show what I meant and why I´m very cautious with photos.

Yeah, but you gotta work with what you've got, right?

Thankfully most of the time they tend to cross roads & raillines at right angle... Not a big fan of those.
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Finland Shadow Offline
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(09-24-2020, 05:14 PM)Rishi Wrote:
(09-24-2020, 05:08 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(09-24-2020, 04:07 PM)Rishi Wrote:
(09-24-2020, 03:40 PM)Scout Wrote:
(09-24-2020, 01:56 PM)Ashutosh Wrote: @Scout, I am sorry but none of those tigers are in the exceptional category, they are impressive but not exceptional in terms of size. Waghdoh has never been classified as the biggest tiger in India.

If you are looking for the exceptional ones, you have the enormous male from Rajaji, hairyfoot from Panna, Kaziranga male shifted to Manas, A few other Kaziranga males like Kzt 085, kzt 083, kzt 023 and couple of really big ones from Terai. Pictures of all the above mentioned males are available on wildfact itself.

Im pretty sure that Waghdoh hasnt gained his reputation for nothing. Its true that we have no weight information, but he is big otherwise why would people say he is big?

And same goes for KAZI-59
Here he can be seen hunting cows - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH7jB1Ky9sk

Just as big as KTZ-085 here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOtSnxrwcKc

Please don't share same link multiple times... And not only they were at different distances from their respective preys, unless we can confirm those cows where of same size we can't compare fairly, can we?

Wagdoh is(was) actually very stocky & stout. People who have seen many tigers that can compare him to other famous males, have told that he's big but not as big as many of his peers.
And recently we got a photo of him crossing railway line, by which his body length measured out to be less than 6ft (I think it's in this thread only).

Since there is so much speculation of sizes from photos, which are pretty useless usually, imo, I put here some remarks to think about.

So this railway photo concerning Wagdoh.

First, it´s very difficult to make exact estimation even from this photo since it´s so 2-dimensional, it´s quite impossible to know from where should be measured distance between rails so, that it would be at same level exactly as Wagdoh is. But I tried to do it so, that it would be at least approximately right. So when I measured that distance between inner sides of rails, which is Indian standard 1676 mm and after it measuring body without tail for obvious reasons, I got result 1892 mm. Obviously if he would be measured between the pegs as usually, he would be more stretched, imo and he could be longer.

Then again as I have drawn above, this kind of 2-dimensional photo has problems and can make an illusion of the position. If Wagdoh is here even slightly so, that backside further than head, he looks a bit shorter than he is. That red line above is on my screen 26 mm and line below is 25 mm. Still that slightly longer line would look shorter in photo if taken from direction which is marked with black arrow. So longer would look shorter.

Based on this photo body lenght of Wagdoh could be anything in between maybe 180-210 cm, if he would be measured properly while tranquilazed.

I´m very critical to all photos shared with claims of "huge" this and that if there isn´t something really good to compare with. Estimations can be made, but usually those are rough. Huge can be in reality average, just a nice photo showing muscles good.

Then again this photo is good in that way, that some other poster included that photo of Wagdoh in his prime side by side. He is now 17 years old if I remember right(?). So when people have seen him for instance 4-5 years ago, they haven´t seen him in his prime not to mention if some people have seen him during last 1-2 years and then saying, that "oh, he is small in comparison with this and that tiger". 

People tend to have short memory and without a doubt reputation of Wagdoh is base on his size in his prime condition. Without seeing him right next to some other big one, it´s quite impossible to say too good estimations who is bigger or smaller so, that someone could be 100% sure. Also in Wildfact posters have had many arguments concerning it, that which tiger is bigger than some other. And both sides very sure, that being right and other poster right. One reason why I prefer to see studies and confirmed measurements and weights.

What comes to Wagdoh, even though there is no tiger which could be called the biggest tiger of India without a doubt, Wagdoh has been often called maybe the biggest tiger of India etc. I haven´t seen anyone proving otherwise in any reliable way, of course it can´t be proven that there wouldn´t have been some bigger tiger. It depends from whom is asked as far as I have seen. 

Anyway here is the photo to show what I meant and why I´m very cautious with photos.

Yeah, but you gotta work with what you've got, right?

Thankfully most of the time they tend to cross roads & raillines at right angle... Not a big fan of those.

Yes, estimations can be made and it´s kind of fun too. Sometimes there are some really good photos, I still want to point how difficult it is in reality and how there are things which can have relatively big effect and many don´t think about. Photos are always tricky and that´s why I try to avoid making too big conclusions to one direction or another based on some random photos. Rough estimations are usually the best what can be made without measurement tape and scale.
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Germany Yusuf Offline
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(09-24-2020, 12:51 PM)Scout Wrote:
(09-22-2020, 09:30 PM)Yusuf Wrote: @GuateGojira 

Is this true? I mean the claim....

*This image is copyright of its original author


They said that the Tiger from Brander were gorged.

Now, Brander's data is real and reliable, but im pretty sure that there were many subadults. 
These subadults were yet to put on a lot of muscle mass and bulk. 

Here is a paper from Dr. Yadvendradev Jhala, he is a leading big cats expert from India
https://www.researchgate.net/publication...ing_Tigers

According to this paper, the weight of tigers varies as following with age - 

Juveniles - 1 to 2 yo = 50-120kgs
Subadults - 2 to 3 yo = 130-170kgs
Young adults - 3.5 to 5yo, They keep on accumulating mass
Adults - 6 yo and above = 200-260kgs














Hence its very much possible that there were subadults in his data

Personally i dont agree that a adult male tiger has a minimum weight of 200 kg... . Many tigers weighed 180 kg and they were adult. Even from Terrai or Nepal one Tiger was 400 lbs and was claimed as NORMAL SIZE FOR A MALE. (Probably he mean the dimensions).

According to Mazák, the average weight of Indian male tigers should fluctuate around 190 kg. (The most reliable max weights are a 258 kg male bengal tiger reported by mazak)
Mazák, 1983 (S. 178 ff.)


Best Regards.
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Rishi Offline
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( This post was last modified: 09-25-2020, 07:51 AM by Rishi )

(09-24-2020, 08:43 PM)Yusuf Wrote: Personally i dont agree that a adult male tiger has a minimum weight of 200 kg...
...According to Mazák, the average weight of Indian male tigers should fluctuate around 190 kg. (The most reliable max weights are a 258 kg male bengal tiger reported by mazak)
Mazák, 1983 (S. 178 ff.)


Best Regards.

Oh no, he means the weight range that atleast 70% of healthy adults fall within, that's how they're doing it now... the acreage itself is a range. Any 180kg or 280kg individuals are not in that.
WII data samples not only collectively outnumber all the others combined, but are also evenly spread over all India. Jhala's words carry more weight than anybody else's from 50 years ago.

Nonetheless, I think you should go through the old posts on this thread. Get a look at the specimens around with their weights.
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