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Modern Weights and Measurements of Jaguars

Balam Offline
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@Pckts I disagree that Lopez was bigger than Joker, imo Joker is easily the largest jaguar captured by a scientific organization and in recent records.

When he was captured last year he increased rather dramatically in total body length to 250 cm, knowing that the tail rarely ever grows past a certain age, he was not too far away from measuring 2 meters of body length, perhaps 185-190 during his second capture. This growth in length would also mean that his already outstanding chest girth measurement of 126 cm would have expanded even more, I wouldn't be surprised if he measured close to 130 cm in chest circumference or more. 

His weight was captured in the scale at 140 kg without him being fully lifted up, this means that it had a lot of velocity and he must have been much heavier than that. In the video of Lopez the biologists can be seen struggling to lift him up the ground but they managed to do it either way, with Joker it was not possible. I believe Joker is one of the rare 150+ kg jaguars.

To compare his measurements, here are some body measurements for African lions across different areas:



*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

The lion on the second graph had a weight of 177.5 kg, but his chest girth of 128 cm would be very similar to that of Joker, assuming Joker did not reach the 130 cm benchmark during his second capture, in which case he could've been even wider. The female at 145 kg too had a similar chest girth at 125 cm. The maximum value of chest girth for male lions of Kalahari was 126 cm as well, Joker in fact had larger measurements than all the lionesses from that sample and some males too, with the largest average of Rhodesian lions being closer to his measurements during the first capture.

Of course lions being taller some of the mass they pack will be spread across a larger frame, but Joker nonetheless compares and at times surpasses adult lions in areas where jaguar morphology is accentuated.

Another interesting point is that if you compare the total body length of Joker at 250 cm with the total body length of the lion and lioness from the second graph, and then subtract the tail length, Joker would still compare quite nicely in body length and may even be longer than the lioness slightly.

We don't know the methods of measurements for the lions but lions are usually measured following the curves of the body as can be exemplified by the Hobatere lions.

Joker is low to the ground but massive in all other areas, he has dimensions akin to a lion/tiger, and we know for a fact he weighed over 140 kg during his last capture. To me he is the clear record holder at the moment.
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United States Pckts Offline
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(03-08-2021, 11:54 PM)Balam Wrote: @Pckts I disagree that Lopez was bigger than Joker, imo Joker is easily the largest jaguar captured by a scientific organization and in recent records.

When he was captured last year he increased rather dramatically in total body length to 250 cm, knowing that the tail rarely ever grows past a certain age, he was not too far away from measuring 2 meters of body length, perhaps 185-190 during his second capture. This growth in length would also mean that his already outstanding chest girth measurement of 126 cm would have expanded even more, I wouldn't be surprised if he measured close to 130 cm in chest circumference or more. 

His weight was captured in the scale at 140 kg without him being fully lifted up, this means that it had a lot of velocity and he must have been much heavier than that. In the video of Lopez the biologists can be seen struggling to lift him up the ground but they managed to do it either way, with Joker it was not possible. I believe Joker is one of the rare 150+ kg jaguars.

To compare his measurements, here are some body measurements for African lions across different areas:



*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

The lion on the second graph had a weight of 177.5 kg, but his chest girth of 128 cm would be very similar to that of Joker, assuming Joker did not reach the 130 cm benchmark during his second capture, in which case he could've been even wider. The female at 145 kg too had a similar chest girth at 125 cm. The maximum value of chest girth for male lions of Kalahari was 126 cm as well, Joker in fact had larger measurements than all the lionesses from that sample and some males too, with the largest average of Rhodesian lions being closer to his measurements during the first capture.

Of course lions being taller some of the mass they pack will be spread across a larger frame, but Joker nonetheless compares and at times surpasses adult lions in areas where jaguar morphology is accentuated.

Another interesting point is that if you compare the total body length of Joker at 250 cm with the total body length of the lion and lioness from the second graph, and then subtract the tail length, Joker would still compare quite nicely in body length and may even be longer than the lioness slightly.

We don't know the methods of measurements for the lions but lions are usually measured following the curves of the body as can be exemplified by the Hobatere lions.

Joker is low to the ground but massive in all other areas, he has dimensions akin to a lion/tiger, and we know for a fact he weighed over 140 kg during his last capture. To me he is the clear record holder at the moment.

Were you able to get an actual body length on Joker for his second capture?

In regards to the measurements I've posted
Joker and Almeida's cat are realistically the same length and Almeida's Jaguar is actually shorter than Joker at the shoulder and with similar Neck Girths. It's the chest girth that seperates Joker but we must remember that Joker's chest girth isn't actually exact as Edu never flipped him over and wrapped the tape all the way around, he simply multiplied one side by 2 and we don't know if that makes a difference in total size or not. 

My guess is Joker is in the 130-140kg range unless his new capture produced some sizes that exceed what I've posted.
Can you post again where Edu or whoever captured joker specified his weight and body measurements?

Lopez is a 142kg Jaguar or more with no real bait taken during his capture, whether he's empty or not is unknown but he certainly wasn't full bellied.
We already know Adriano wasn't the biggest Jaguar in the North as Paulo told me years ago, Adriano was normal size but bulky so assuming at least Edno and Balam are larger than he with a few others as well, it's safe to say those guys are going to be 140kg jaguars as well. But again we'd need to know if we're comparing Adriano at empty or full as well since Almeida's Jaguar is specifically mentioned as empty so he could of also been 130kg+ with food content.
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Balam Offline
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(03-09-2021, 12:13 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(03-08-2021, 11:54 PM)Balam Wrote: @Pckts I disagree that Lopez was bigger than Joker, imo Joker is easily the largest jaguar captured by a scientific organization and in recent records.

When he was captured last year he increased rather dramatically in total body length to 250 cm, knowing that the tail rarely ever grows past a certain age, he was not too far away from measuring 2 meters of body length, perhaps 185-190 during his second capture. This growth in length would also mean that his already outstanding chest girth measurement of 126 cm would have expanded even more, I wouldn't be surprised if he measured close to 130 cm in chest circumference or more. 

His weight was captured in the scale at 140 kg without him being fully lifted up, this means that it had a lot of velocity and he must have been much heavier than that. In the video of Lopez the biologists can be seen struggling to lift him up the ground but they managed to do it either way, with Joker it was not possible. I believe Joker is one of the rare 150+ kg jaguars.

To compare his measurements, here are some body measurements for African lions across different areas:



*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

The lion on the second graph had a weight of 177.5 kg, but his chest girth of 128 cm would be very similar to that of Joker, assuming Joker did not reach the 130 cm benchmark during his second capture, in which case he could've been even wider. The female at 145 kg too had a similar chest girth at 125 cm. The maximum value of chest girth for male lions of Kalahari was 126 cm as well, Joker in fact had larger measurements than all the lionesses from that sample and some males too, with the largest average of Rhodesian lions being closer to his measurements during the first capture.

Of course lions being taller some of the mass they pack will be spread across a larger frame, but Joker nonetheless compares and at times surpasses adult lions in areas where jaguar morphology is accentuated.

Another interesting point is that if you compare the total body length of Joker at 250 cm with the total body length of the lion and lioness from the second graph, and then subtract the tail length, Joker would still compare quite nicely in body length and may even be longer than the lioness slightly.

We don't know the methods of measurements for the lions but lions are usually measured following the curves of the body as can be exemplified by the Hobatere lions.

Joker is low to the ground but massive in all other areas, he has dimensions akin to a lion/tiger, and we know for a fact he weighed over 140 kg during his last capture. To me he is the clear record holder at the moment.

Were you able to get an actual body length on Joker for his second capture?

In regards to the measurements I've posted
Joker and Almeida's cat are realistically the same length and Almeida's Jaguar is actually shorter than Joker at the shoulder and with similar Neck Girths. It's the chest girth that seperates Joker but we must remember that Joker's chest girth isn't actually exact as Edu never flipped him over and wrapped the tape all the way around, he simply multiplied one side by 2 and we don't know if that makes a difference in total size or not. 

My guess is Joker is in the 130-140kg range unless his new capture produced some sizes that exceed what I've posted.
Can you post again where Edu or whoever captured joker specified his weight and body measurements?

Lopez is a 142kg Jaguar or more with no real bait taken during his capture, whether he's empty or not is unknown but he certainly wasn't full bellied.
We already know Adriano wasn't the biggest Jaguar in the North as Paulo told me years ago, Adriano was normal size but bulky so assuming at least Edno and Balam are larger than he with a few others as well, it's safe to say those guys are going to be 140kg jaguars as well. But again we'd need to know if we're comparing Adriano at empty or full as well since Almeida's Jaguar is specifically mentioned as empty so he could of also been 130kg+ with food content.

Oncafari published Joker's new body length measurement not so long ago:


*This image is copyright of its original author

As you can see he increased quite a lot from his previous captured in total length, it makes sense for him to have also expanded in other areas of his body such as chest girth. Remember that jaguars usually attain more mass in a horizontal, barrel-like manner, as exemplified by Pita male who had short limbs but also a very broad chest that also compared to that of lions/tigers. I'm not aware of the chest girth of lions and tigers being taken by lifting them up from the ground, due to their heavyweight it is likely that the multiplication by 2 standard would also be applied to them, that's why I'm very comfortable comparing Joker to them.

As for Edno and Balam, honestly, I'm dying to know their measurements as weights too, it will be such waste from a research point of view to not capture them because they could potentially expand our understanding of the size capabilities of jaguars, assuming they are larger than Lopez and record breakers too, which I strongly suspect they could be. I made this rough comparative image between Balam and Joker, and to me, they seem to overlap in size nicely:


*This image is copyright of its original author
1 user Likes Balam's post
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United States Pckts Offline
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(03-09-2021, 12:31 AM)Balam Wrote:
(03-09-2021, 12:13 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(03-08-2021, 11:54 PM)Balam Wrote: @Pckts I disagree that Lopez was bigger than Joker, imo Joker is easily the largest jaguar captured by a scientific organization and in recent records.

When he was captured last year he increased rather dramatically in total body length to 250 cm, knowing that the tail rarely ever grows past a certain age, he was not too far away from measuring 2 meters of body length, perhaps 185-190 during his second capture. This growth in length would also mean that his already outstanding chest girth measurement of 126 cm would have expanded even more, I wouldn't be surprised if he measured close to 130 cm in chest circumference or more. 

His weight was captured in the scale at 140 kg without him being fully lifted up, this means that it had a lot of velocity and he must have been much heavier than that. In the video of Lopez the biologists can be seen struggling to lift him up the ground but they managed to do it either way, with Joker it was not possible. I believe Joker is one of the rare 150+ kg jaguars.

To compare his measurements, here are some body measurements for African lions across different areas:



*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

The lion on the second graph had a weight of 177.5 kg, but his chest girth of 128 cm would be very similar to that of Joker, assuming Joker did not reach the 130 cm benchmark during his second capture, in which case he could've been even wider. The female at 145 kg too had a similar chest girth at 125 cm. The maximum value of chest girth for male lions of Kalahari was 126 cm as well, Joker in fact had larger measurements than all the lionesses from that sample and some males too, with the largest average of Rhodesian lions being closer to his measurements during the first capture.

Of course lions being taller some of the mass they pack will be spread across a larger frame, but Joker nonetheless compares and at times surpasses adult lions in areas where jaguar morphology is accentuated.

Another interesting point is that if you compare the total body length of Joker at 250 cm with the total body length of the lion and lioness from the second graph, and then subtract the tail length, Joker would still compare quite nicely in body length and may even be longer than the lioness slightly.

We don't know the methods of measurements for the lions but lions are usually measured following the curves of the body as can be exemplified by the Hobatere lions.

Joker is low to the ground but massive in all other areas, he has dimensions akin to a lion/tiger, and we know for a fact he weighed over 140 kg during his last capture. To me he is the clear record holder at the moment.

Were you able to get an actual body length on Joker for his second capture?

In regards to the measurements I've posted
Joker and Almeida's cat are realistically the same length and Almeida's Jaguar is actually shorter than Joker at the shoulder and with similar Neck Girths. It's the chest girth that seperates Joker but we must remember that Joker's chest girth isn't actually exact as Edu never flipped him over and wrapped the tape all the way around, he simply multiplied one side by 2 and we don't know if that makes a difference in total size or not. 

My guess is Joker is in the 130-140kg range unless his new capture produced some sizes that exceed what I've posted.
Can you post again where Edu or whoever captured joker specified his weight and body measurements?

Lopez is a 142kg Jaguar or more with no real bait taken during his capture, whether he's empty or not is unknown but he certainly wasn't full bellied.
We already know Adriano wasn't the biggest Jaguar in the North as Paulo told me years ago, Adriano was normal size but bulky so assuming at least Edno and Balam are larger than he with a few others as well, it's safe to say those guys are going to be 140kg jaguars as well. But again we'd need to know if we're comparing Adriano at empty or full as well since Almeida's Jaguar is specifically mentioned as empty so he could of also been 130kg+ with food content.

Oncafari published Joker's new body length measurement not so long ago:


*This image is copyright of its original author

As you can see he increased quite a lot from his previous captured in total length, it makes sense for him to have also expanded in other areas of his body such as chest girth. Remember that jaguars usually attain more mass in a horizontal, barrel-like manner, as exemplified by Pita male who had short limbs but also a very broad chest that also compared to that of lions/tigers. I'm not aware of the chest girth of lions and tigers being taken by lifting them up from the ground, due to their heavyweight it is likely that the multiplication by 2 standard would also be applied to them, that's why I'm very comfortable comparing Joker to them.

As for Edno and Balam, honestly, I'm dying to know their measurements as weights too, it will be such waste from a research point of view to not capture them because they could potentially expand our understanding of the size capabilities of jaguars, assuming they are larger than Lopez and record breakers too, which I strongly suspect they could be. I made this rough comparative image between Balam and Joker, and to me, they seem to overlap in size nicely:


*This image is copyright of its original author

I'd like to know who took those measurements and what they were exactly.
Do you know who said the 140kg weight was from an unsuccessful weighing attempt? 

I'll ask Edu but he hasn't been as accessible lately.
Reply

Balam Offline
Jaguar Enthusiast
*****

(03-09-2021, 01:09 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(03-09-2021, 12:31 AM)Balam Wrote:
(03-09-2021, 12:13 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(03-08-2021, 11:54 PM)Balam Wrote: @Pckts I disagree that Lopez was bigger than Joker, imo Joker is easily the largest jaguar captured by a scientific organization and in recent records.

When he was captured last year he increased rather dramatically in total body length to 250 cm, knowing that the tail rarely ever grows past a certain age, he was not too far away from measuring 2 meters of body length, perhaps 185-190 during his second capture. This growth in length would also mean that his already outstanding chest girth measurement of 126 cm would have expanded even more, I wouldn't be surprised if he measured close to 130 cm in chest circumference or more. 

His weight was captured in the scale at 140 kg without him being fully lifted up, this means that it had a lot of velocity and he must have been much heavier than that. In the video of Lopez the biologists can be seen struggling to lift him up the ground but they managed to do it either way, with Joker it was not possible. I believe Joker is one of the rare 150+ kg jaguars.

To compare his measurements, here are some body measurements for African lions across different areas:



*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

The lion on the second graph had a weight of 177.5 kg, but his chest girth of 128 cm would be very similar to that of Joker, assuming Joker did not reach the 130 cm benchmark during his second capture, in which case he could've been even wider. The female at 145 kg too had a similar chest girth at 125 cm. The maximum value of chest girth for male lions of Kalahari was 126 cm as well, Joker in fact had larger measurements than all the lionesses from that sample and some males too, with the largest average of Rhodesian lions being closer to his measurements during the first capture.

Of course lions being taller some of the mass they pack will be spread across a larger frame, but Joker nonetheless compares and at times surpasses adult lions in areas where jaguar morphology is accentuated.

Another interesting point is that if you compare the total body length of Joker at 250 cm with the total body length of the lion and lioness from the second graph, and then subtract the tail length, Joker would still compare quite nicely in body length and may even be longer than the lioness slightly.

We don't know the methods of measurements for the lions but lions are usually measured following the curves of the body as can be exemplified by the Hobatere lions.

Joker is low to the ground but massive in all other areas, he has dimensions akin to a lion/tiger, and we know for a fact he weighed over 140 kg during his last capture. To me he is the clear record holder at the moment.

Were you able to get an actual body length on Joker for his second capture?

In regards to the measurements I've posted
Joker and Almeida's cat are realistically the same length and Almeida's Jaguar is actually shorter than Joker at the shoulder and with similar Neck Girths. It's the chest girth that seperates Joker but we must remember that Joker's chest girth isn't actually exact as Edu never flipped him over and wrapped the tape all the way around, he simply multiplied one side by 2 and we don't know if that makes a difference in total size or not. 

My guess is Joker is in the 130-140kg range unless his new capture produced some sizes that exceed what I've posted.
Can you post again where Edu or whoever captured joker specified his weight and body measurements?

Lopez is a 142kg Jaguar or more with no real bait taken during his capture, whether he's empty or not is unknown but he certainly wasn't full bellied.
We already know Adriano wasn't the biggest Jaguar in the North as Paulo told me years ago, Adriano was normal size but bulky so assuming at least Edno and Balam are larger than he with a few others as well, it's safe to say those guys are going to be 140kg jaguars as well. But again we'd need to know if we're comparing Adriano at empty or full as well since Almeida's Jaguar is specifically mentioned as empty so he could of also been 130kg+ with food content.

Oncafari published Joker's new body length measurement not so long ago:


*This image is copyright of its original author

As you can see he increased quite a lot from his previous captured in total length, it makes sense for him to have also expanded in other areas of his body such as chest girth. Remember that jaguars usually attain more mass in a horizontal, barrel-like manner, as exemplified by Pita male who had short limbs but also a very broad chest that also compared to that of lions/tigers. I'm not aware of the chest girth of lions and tigers being taken by lifting them up from the ground, due to their heavyweight it is likely that the multiplication by 2 standard would also be applied to them, that's why I'm very comfortable comparing Joker to them.

As for Edno and Balam, honestly, I'm dying to know their measurements as weights too, it will be such waste from a research point of view to not capture them because they could potentially expand our understanding of the size capabilities of jaguars, assuming they are larger than Lopez and record breakers too, which I strongly suspect they could be. I made this rough comparative image between Balam and Joker, and to me, they seem to overlap in size nicely:


*This image is copyright of its original author

I'd like to know who took those measurements and what they were exactly.
Do you know who said the 140kg weight was from an unsuccessful weighing attempt? 

I'll ask Edu but he hasn't been as accessible lately.

This is what Edu told me regarding his weight: "I wasn't there, but he was captured this year at Caiman and the team couldn't weigh him properly because he was too heavy and there were few people to lift him entirely from the ground..."

Basically they could not lift him up entirely, but he alluded that the value of 140 kg was captured while not completely lifted up, that's why I believe he is bigger than Lopez because to yield such a massive weight without being fully up or and for enough time to capture the data entirely he must have to have weighed quite a bit more than that, and since they now use digital scales the values are as accurate as they can possibly be. Joker is on his own league in terms of size.

If you want more info from Edu I'd advise you to comment under his picture of IG, he's more accessible there.
Reply

United States Pckts Offline
Bigcat Enthusiast
******

(03-09-2021, 01:17 AM)Balam Wrote:
(03-09-2021, 01:09 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(03-09-2021, 12:31 AM)Balam Wrote:
(03-09-2021, 12:13 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(03-08-2021, 11:54 PM)Balam Wrote: @Pckts I disagree that Lopez was bigger than Joker, imo Joker is easily the largest jaguar captured by a scientific organization and in recent records.

When he was captured last year he increased rather dramatically in total body length to 250 cm, knowing that the tail rarely ever grows past a certain age, he was not too far away from measuring 2 meters of body length, perhaps 185-190 during his second capture. This growth in length would also mean that his already outstanding chest girth measurement of 126 cm would have expanded even more, I wouldn't be surprised if he measured close to 130 cm in chest circumference or more. 

His weight was captured in the scale at 140 kg without him being fully lifted up, this means that it had a lot of velocity and he must have been much heavier than that. In the video of Lopez the biologists can be seen struggling to lift him up the ground but they managed to do it either way, with Joker it was not possible. I believe Joker is one of the rare 150+ kg jaguars.

To compare his measurements, here are some body measurements for African lions across different areas:



*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

The lion on the second graph had a weight of 177.5 kg, but his chest girth of 128 cm would be very similar to that of Joker, assuming Joker did not reach the 130 cm benchmark during his second capture, in which case he could've been even wider. The female at 145 kg too had a similar chest girth at 125 cm. The maximum value of chest girth for male lions of Kalahari was 126 cm as well, Joker in fact had larger measurements than all the lionesses from that sample and some males too, with the largest average of Rhodesian lions being closer to his measurements during the first capture.

Of course lions being taller some of the mass they pack will be spread across a larger frame, but Joker nonetheless compares and at times surpasses adult lions in areas where jaguar morphology is accentuated.

Another interesting point is that if you compare the total body length of Joker at 250 cm with the total body length of the lion and lioness from the second graph, and then subtract the tail length, Joker would still compare quite nicely in body length and may even be longer than the lioness slightly.

We don't know the methods of measurements for the lions but lions are usually measured following the curves of the body as can be exemplified by the Hobatere lions.

Joker is low to the ground but massive in all other areas, he has dimensions akin to a lion/tiger, and we know for a fact he weighed over 140 kg during his last capture. To me he is the clear record holder at the moment.

Were you able to get an actual body length on Joker for his second capture?

In regards to the measurements I've posted
Joker and Almeida's cat are realistically the same length and Almeida's Jaguar is actually shorter than Joker at the shoulder and with similar Neck Girths. It's the chest girth that seperates Joker but we must remember that Joker's chest girth isn't actually exact as Edu never flipped him over and wrapped the tape all the way around, he simply multiplied one side by 2 and we don't know if that makes a difference in total size or not. 

My guess is Joker is in the 130-140kg range unless his new capture produced some sizes that exceed what I've posted.
Can you post again where Edu or whoever captured joker specified his weight and body measurements?

Lopez is a 142kg Jaguar or more with no real bait taken during his capture, whether he's empty or not is unknown but he certainly wasn't full bellied.
We already know Adriano wasn't the biggest Jaguar in the North as Paulo told me years ago, Adriano was normal size but bulky so assuming at least Edno and Balam are larger than he with a few others as well, it's safe to say those guys are going to be 140kg jaguars as well. But again we'd need to know if we're comparing Adriano at empty or full as well since Almeida's Jaguar is specifically mentioned as empty so he could of also been 130kg+ with food content.

Oncafari published Joker's new body length measurement not so long ago:


*This image is copyright of its original author

As you can see he increased quite a lot from his previous captured in total length, it makes sense for him to have also expanded in other areas of his body such as chest girth. Remember that jaguars usually attain more mass in a horizontal, barrel-like manner, as exemplified by Pita male who had short limbs but also a very broad chest that also compared to that of lions/tigers. I'm not aware of the chest girth of lions and tigers being taken by lifting them up from the ground, due to their heavyweight it is likely that the multiplication by 2 standard would also be applied to them, that's why I'm very comfortable comparing Joker to them.

As for Edno and Balam, honestly, I'm dying to know their measurements as weights too, it will be such waste from a research point of view to not capture them because they could potentially expand our understanding of the size capabilities of jaguars, assuming they are larger than Lopez and record breakers too, which I strongly suspect they could be. I made this rough comparative image between Balam and Joker, and to me, they seem to overlap in size nicely:


*This image is copyright of its original author

I'd like to know who took those measurements and what they were exactly.
Do you know who said the 140kg weight was from an unsuccessful weighing attempt? 

I'll ask Edu but he hasn't been as accessible lately.

This is what Edu told me regarding his weight: "I wasn't there, but he was captured this year at Caiman and the team couldn't weigh him properly because he was too heavy and there were few people to lift him entirely from the ground..."

Basically they could not lift him up entirely, but he alluded that the value of 140 kg was captured while not completely lifted up, that's why I believe he is bigger than Lopez because to yield such a massive weight without being fully up or and for enough time to capture the data entirely he must have to have weighed quite a bit more than that, and since they now use digital scales the values are as accurate as they can possibly be. Joker is on his own league in terms of size.

If you want more info from Edu I'd advise you to comment under his picture of IG, he's more accessible there.
But we can't assume that he weighed over 140kg from Edu's statement nor do we know how heavy the scale actually went up to.
We also don't know his body dimensions but Edu would be able to get them from the program so I'll see if he gets back to me. He usually is good about it but who knows.
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Balam Offline
Jaguar Enthusiast
*****

(03-09-2021, 01:51 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(03-09-2021, 01:17 AM)Balam Wrote:
(03-09-2021, 01:09 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(03-09-2021, 12:31 AM)Balam Wrote:
(03-09-2021, 12:13 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(03-08-2021, 11:54 PM)Balam Wrote: @Pckts I disagree that Lopez was bigger than Joker, imo Joker is easily the largest jaguar captured by a scientific organization and in recent records.

When he was captured last year he increased rather dramatically in total body length to 250 cm, knowing that the tail rarely ever grows past a certain age, he was not too far away from measuring 2 meters of body length, perhaps 185-190 during his second capture. This growth in length would also mean that his already outstanding chest girth measurement of 126 cm would have expanded even more, I wouldn't be surprised if he measured close to 130 cm in chest circumference or more. 

His weight was captured in the scale at 140 kg without him being fully lifted up, this means that it had a lot of velocity and he must have been much heavier than that. In the video of Lopez the biologists can be seen struggling to lift him up the ground but they managed to do it either way, with Joker it was not possible. I believe Joker is one of the rare 150+ kg jaguars.

To compare his measurements, here are some body measurements for African lions across different areas:



*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

The lion on the second graph had a weight of 177.5 kg, but his chest girth of 128 cm would be very similar to that of Joker, assuming Joker did not reach the 130 cm benchmark during his second capture, in which case he could've been even wider. The female at 145 kg too had a similar chest girth at 125 cm. The maximum value of chest girth for male lions of Kalahari was 126 cm as well, Joker in fact had larger measurements than all the lionesses from that sample and some males too, with the largest average of Rhodesian lions being closer to his measurements during the first capture.

Of course lions being taller some of the mass they pack will be spread across a larger frame, but Joker nonetheless compares and at times surpasses adult lions in areas where jaguar morphology is accentuated.

Another interesting point is that if you compare the total body length of Joker at 250 cm with the total body length of the lion and lioness from the second graph, and then subtract the tail length, Joker would still compare quite nicely in body length and may even be longer than the lioness slightly.

We don't know the methods of measurements for the lions but lions are usually measured following the curves of the body as can be exemplified by the Hobatere lions.

Joker is low to the ground but massive in all other areas, he has dimensions akin to a lion/tiger, and we know for a fact he weighed over 140 kg during his last capture. To me he is the clear record holder at the moment.

Were you able to get an actual body length on Joker for his second capture?

In regards to the measurements I've posted
Joker and Almeida's cat are realistically the same length and Almeida's Jaguar is actually shorter than Joker at the shoulder and with similar Neck Girths. It's the chest girth that seperates Joker but we must remember that Joker's chest girth isn't actually exact as Edu never flipped him over and wrapped the tape all the way around, he simply multiplied one side by 2 and we don't know if that makes a difference in total size or not. 

My guess is Joker is in the 130-140kg range unless his new capture produced some sizes that exceed what I've posted.
Can you post again where Edu or whoever captured joker specified his weight and body measurements?

Lopez is a 142kg Jaguar or more with no real bait taken during his capture, whether he's empty or not is unknown but he certainly wasn't full bellied.
We already know Adriano wasn't the biggest Jaguar in the North as Paulo told me years ago, Adriano was normal size but bulky so assuming at least Edno and Balam are larger than he with a few others as well, it's safe to say those guys are going to be 140kg jaguars as well. But again we'd need to know if we're comparing Adriano at empty or full as well since Almeida's Jaguar is specifically mentioned as empty so he could of also been 130kg+ with food content.

Oncafari published Joker's new body length measurement not so long ago:


*This image is copyright of its original author

As you can see he increased quite a lot from his previous captured in total length, it makes sense for him to have also expanded in other areas of his body such as chest girth. Remember that jaguars usually attain more mass in a horizontal, barrel-like manner, as exemplified by Pita male who had short limbs but also a very broad chest that also compared to that of lions/tigers. I'm not aware of the chest girth of lions and tigers being taken by lifting them up from the ground, due to their heavyweight it is likely that the multiplication by 2 standard would also be applied to them, that's why I'm very comfortable comparing Joker to them.

As for Edno and Balam, honestly, I'm dying to know their measurements as weights too, it will be such waste from a research point of view to not capture them because they could potentially expand our understanding of the size capabilities of jaguars, assuming they are larger than Lopez and record breakers too, which I strongly suspect they could be. I made this rough comparative image between Balam and Joker, and to me, they seem to overlap in size nicely:


*This image is copyright of its original author

I'd like to know who took those measurements and what they were exactly.
Do you know who said the 140kg weight was from an unsuccessful weighing attempt? 

I'll ask Edu but he hasn't been as accessible lately.

This is what Edu told me regarding his weight: "I wasn't there, but he was captured this year at Caiman and the team couldn't weigh him properly because he was too heavy and there were few people to lift him entirely from the ground..."

Basically they could not lift him up entirely, but he alluded that the value of 140 kg was captured while not completely lifted up, that's why I believe he is bigger than Lopez because to yield such a massive weight without being fully up or and for enough time to capture the data entirely he must have to have weighed quite a bit more than that, and since they now use digital scales the values are as accurate as they can possibly be. Joker is on his own league in terms of size.

If you want more info from Edu I'd advise you to comment under his picture of IG, he's more accessible there.
But we can't assume that he weighed over 140kg from Edu's statement nor do we know how heavy the scale actually went up to.
We also don't know his body dimensions but Edu would be able to get them from the program so I'll see if he gets back to me. He usually is good about it but who knows.

The 140+ kg claims come from them not me, I'm just trying to put the pieces together to arrive to a conclusion. I believe he answered this to you on IG:


*This image is copyright of its original author

Either way try to see if he gets back to you with detailed answers on the measurements and weights for his second capture, as a last resort I'll context him if he doesn't answer.
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(03-09-2021, 02:08 AM)Balam Wrote:
(03-09-2021, 01:51 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(03-09-2021, 01:17 AM)Balam Wrote:
(03-09-2021, 01:09 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(03-09-2021, 12:31 AM)Balam Wrote:
(03-09-2021, 12:13 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(03-08-2021, 11:54 PM)Balam Wrote: @Pckts I disagree that Lopez was bigger than Joker, imo Joker is easily the largest jaguar captured by a scientific organization and in recent records.

When he was captured last year he increased rather dramatically in total body length to 250 cm, knowing that the tail rarely ever grows past a certain age, he was not too far away from measuring 2 meters of body length, perhaps 185-190 during his second capture. This growth in length would also mean that his already outstanding chest girth measurement of 126 cm would have expanded even more, I wouldn't be surprised if he measured close to 130 cm in chest circumference or more. 

His weight was captured in the scale at 140 kg without him being fully lifted up, this means that it had a lot of velocity and he must have been much heavier than that. In the video of Lopez the biologists can be seen struggling to lift him up the ground but they managed to do it either way, with Joker it was not possible. I believe Joker is one of the rare 150+ kg jaguars.

To compare his measurements, here are some body measurements for African lions across different areas:



*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

The lion on the second graph had a weight of 177.5 kg, but his chest girth of 128 cm would be very similar to that of Joker, assuming Joker did not reach the 130 cm benchmark during his second capture, in which case he could've been even wider. The female at 145 kg too had a similar chest girth at 125 cm. The maximum value of chest girth for male lions of Kalahari was 126 cm as well, Joker in fact had larger measurements than all the lionesses from that sample and some males too, with the largest average of Rhodesian lions being closer to his measurements during the first capture.

Of course lions being taller some of the mass they pack will be spread across a larger frame, but Joker nonetheless compares and at times surpasses adult lions in areas where jaguar morphology is accentuated.

Another interesting point is that if you compare the total body length of Joker at 250 cm with the total body length of the lion and lioness from the second graph, and then subtract the tail length, Joker would still compare quite nicely in body length and may even be longer than the lioness slightly.

We don't know the methods of measurements for the lions but lions are usually measured following the curves of the body as can be exemplified by the Hobatere lions.

Joker is low to the ground but massive in all other areas, he has dimensions akin to a lion/tiger, and we know for a fact he weighed over 140 kg during his last capture. To me he is the clear record holder at the moment.

Were you able to get an actual body length on Joker for his second capture?

In regards to the measurements I've posted
Joker and Almeida's cat are realistically the same length and Almeida's Jaguar is actually shorter than Joker at the shoulder and with similar Neck Girths. It's the chest girth that seperates Joker but we must remember that Joker's chest girth isn't actually exact as Edu never flipped him over and wrapped the tape all the way around, he simply multiplied one side by 2 and we don't know if that makes a difference in total size or not. 

My guess is Joker is in the 130-140kg range unless his new capture produced some sizes that exceed what I've posted.
Can you post again where Edu or whoever captured joker specified his weight and body measurements?

Lopez is a 142kg Jaguar or more with no real bait taken during his capture, whether he's empty or not is unknown but he certainly wasn't full bellied.
We already know Adriano wasn't the biggest Jaguar in the North as Paulo told me years ago, Adriano was normal size but bulky so assuming at least Edno and Balam are larger than he with a few others as well, it's safe to say those guys are going to be 140kg jaguars as well. But again we'd need to know if we're comparing Adriano at empty or full as well since Almeida's Jaguar is specifically mentioned as empty so he could of also been 130kg+ with food content.

Oncafari published Joker's new body length measurement not so long ago:


*This image is copyright of its original author

As you can see he increased quite a lot from his previous captured in total length, it makes sense for him to have also expanded in other areas of his body such as chest girth. Remember that jaguars usually attain more mass in a horizontal, barrel-like manner, as exemplified by Pita male who had short limbs but also a very broad chest that also compared to that of lions/tigers. I'm not aware of the chest girth of lions and tigers being taken by lifting them up from the ground, due to their heavyweight it is likely that the multiplication by 2 standard would also be applied to them, that's why I'm very comfortable comparing Joker to them.

As for Edno and Balam, honestly, I'm dying to know their measurements as weights too, it will be such waste from a research point of view to not capture them because they could potentially expand our understanding of the size capabilities of jaguars, assuming they are larger than Lopez and record breakers too, which I strongly suspect they could be. I made this rough comparative image between Balam and Joker, and to me, they seem to overlap in size nicely:


*This image is copyright of its original author

I'd like to know who took those measurements and what they were exactly.
Do you know who said the 140kg weight was from an unsuccessful weighing attempt? 

I'll ask Edu but he hasn't been as accessible lately.

This is what Edu told me regarding his weight: "I wasn't there, but he was captured this year at Caiman and the team couldn't weigh him properly because he was too heavy and there were few people to lift him entirely from the ground..."

Basically they could not lift him up entirely, but he alluded that the value of 140 kg was captured while not completely lifted up, that's why I believe he is bigger than Lopez because to yield such a massive weight without being fully up or and for enough time to capture the data entirely he must have to have weighed quite a bit more than that, and since they now use digital scales the values are as accurate as they can possibly be. Joker is on his own league in terms of size.

If you want more info from Edu I'd advise you to comment under his picture of IG, he's more accessible there.
But we can't assume that he weighed over 140kg from Edu's statement nor do we know how heavy the scale actually went up to.
We also don't know his body dimensions but Edu would be able to get them from the program so I'll see if he gets back to me. He usually is good about it but who knows.

The 140+ kg claims come from them not me, I'm just trying to put the pieces together to arrive to a conclusion. I believe he answered this to you on IG:


*This image is copyright of its original author

Either way try to see if he gets back to you with detailed answers on the measurements and weights for his second capture, as a last resort I'll context him if he doesn't answer.
Ah, I forgot about that.
Hopefully they obtained some measurements on him.
We'll see if Edu gets back to me.
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( This post was last modified: 03-09-2021, 08:27 PM by Pckts )


*This image is copyright of its original author

Heard back from Edu and looks like Joker is still the same size, at least when it comes to his measurements.

*This image is copyright of its original author
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@Pckts @Dark Jaguar @Rage2277 @epaiva 

So guys I have more exciting developments to share here. I've been speaking with Lilian the president of Onçafari as I wanted to get to the bottom of the case with Joker. 

She sent me voice notes and honestly I'm not comfortable sharing private conversations with biologists on here anymore as it is easy for ill intended people to use them for their purposes on different forums, but I've been speaking with many of them over the past few months and they've shared a lot of really good insights.

Lilian told me that she was present during Joker's second capture last year unlike Edu, she told me that the Onçafari team decided a few years back that it would make sense for the most equipped person to be the one in charge of getting the measurements of jaguars, her being that person. She said that including her there were three people around Joker during the time he was captured, and I was correct on my previous assertion, she told me that the 140 kg value for Joker was indeed recorded on the scale, but he so heavy that they could not position him on the right angle and the scale stopped a couple of times at 140 kg, but she reaffirmed that the value could not be recorded in its entirely, hence why they have him as "more than 140 kg".

She said Joker was a massive jaguar and there was a possibility that he got even bigger in his second capture compared to the first one. To make this assessment she told me something that I also said here before a couple of months back (she reaffirmed so many of my hypothesis without me asking her), she mentioned Felino. When Felino was first captured he was young and inexperienced, he then left the area and returned back significantly bigger. I mentioned a couple of months back how much bigger Felino had gotten when he was seen mating with massive 92 kg female Nusa on 2018, you be the judges:


*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

She said it was very common for dominant males to fluctuate often in size and get very big after returning back from periods where they've not been seen often. She thinks that may have been the case for Joker as well.

She told me Joker was quite a bit bigger than Robusto, a jaguar that weighed almost 140 kg as well. She said Joker was a "dinosaur", and sent me the following picture of his capture:


*This image is copyright of its original author

He's an absolute beast, and if you look at his mid section, he was completely empty bellied too! You're looking at a jaguar with prehistoric proportions akin to a lion or tiger.

On the second capture the team had a similar problem where he started to wake up earlier from the anesthesia so they left him, she said they were quite frustrated they couldn't get his total weight on that capture.

Overall I maintain my position that Joker is bigger than López, perhaps we can compare them side by side and see how they fare? Caiman Ecological Refuge is the perfect example of an area where jaguars have been allowed to flourished and as a result they've begin to express sizes similar to what they expressed in prehistoric times. I can't put into words how grateful I am for the work Onçafari does.
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(03-13-2021, 02:28 AM)Balam Wrote: @Pckts @Dark Jaguar @Rage2277 @epaiva 

So guys I have more exciting developments to share here. I've been speaking with Lilian the president of Onçafari as I wanted to get to the bottom of the case with Joker. 

She sent me voice notes and honestly I'm not comfortable sharing private conversations with biologists on here anymore as it is easy for ill intended people to use them for their purposes on different forums, but I've been speaking with many of them over the past few months and they've shared a lot of really good insights.

Lilian told me that she was present during Joker's second capture last year unlike Edu, she told me that the Onçafari team decided a few years back that it would make sense for the most equipped person to be the one in charge of getting the measurements of jaguars, her being that person. She said that including her there were three people around Joker during the time he was captured, and I was correct on my previous assertion, she told me that the 140 kg value for Joker was indeed recorded on the scale, but he so heavy that they could not position him on the right angle and the scale stopped a couple of times at 140 kg, but she reaffirmed that the value could not be recorded in its entirely, hence why they have him as "more than 140 kg".

She said Joker was a massive jaguar and there was a possibility that he got even bigger in his second capture compared to the first one. To make this assessment she told me something that I also said here before a couple of months back (she reaffirmed so many of my hypothesis without me asking her), she mentioned Felino. When Felino was first captured he was young and inexperienced, he then left the area and returned back significantly bigger. I mentioned a couple of months back how much bigger Felino had gotten when he was seen mating with massive 92 kg female Nusa on 2018, you be the judges:


*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

She said it was very common for dominant males to fluctuate often in size and get very big after returning back from periods where they've not been seen often. She thinks that may have been the case for Joker as well.

She told me Joker was quite a bit bigger than Robusto, a jaguar that weighed almost 140 kg as well. She said Joker was a "dinosaur", and sent me the following picture of his capture:


*This image is copyright of its original author

He's an absolute beast, and if you look at his mid section, he was completely empty bellied too! You're looking at a jaguar with prehistoric proportions akin to a lion or tiger.

On the second capture the team had a similar problem where he started to wake up earlier from the anesthesia so they left him, she said they were quite frustrated they couldn't get his total weight on that capture.

Overall I maintain my position that Joker is bigger than López, perhaps we can compare them side by side and see how they fare? Caiman Ecological Refuge is the perfect example of an area where jaguars have been allowed to flourished and as a result they've begin to express sizes similar to what they expressed in prehistoric times. I can't put into words how grateful I am for the work Onçafari does.
He's definitely a huge Jaguar, no doubt about it. But measurements won't lie, if she can present those they'd be much more useful. As Edu said, he didn't notice any difference but it may be different. 
I'd also be curious what protocol they used this time around. 
In regards to Lopez v Joker, I don't think the angles will allow a proper comparison but Joker is certainly in his league regardless.

*This image is copyright of its original author
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(03-13-2021, 03:00 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(03-13-2021, 02:28 AM)Balam Wrote: @Pckts @Dark Jaguar @Rage2277 @epaiva 

So guys I have more exciting developments to share here. I've been speaking with Lilian the president of Onçafari as I wanted to get to the bottom of the case with Joker. 

She sent me voice notes and honestly I'm not comfortable sharing private conversations with biologists on here anymore as it is easy for ill intended people to use them for their purposes on different forums, but I've been speaking with many of them over the past few months and they've shared a lot of really good insights.

Lilian told me that she was present during Joker's second capture last year unlike Edu, she told me that the Onçafari team decided a few years back that it would make sense for the most equipped person to be the one in charge of getting the measurements of jaguars, her being that person. She said that including her there were three people around Joker during the time he was captured, and I was correct on my previous assertion, she told me that the 140 kg value for Joker was indeed recorded on the scale, but he so heavy that they could not position him on the right angle and the scale stopped a couple of times at 140 kg, but she reaffirmed that the value could not be recorded in its entirely, hence why they have him as "more than 140 kg".

She said Joker was a massive jaguar and there was a possibility that he got even bigger in his second capture compared to the first one. To make this assessment she told me something that I also said here before a couple of months back (she reaffirmed so many of my hypothesis without me asking her), she mentioned Felino. When Felino was first captured he was young and inexperienced, he then left the area and returned back significantly bigger. I mentioned a couple of months back how much bigger Felino had gotten when he was seen mating with massive 92 kg female Nusa on 2018, you be the judges:


*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

She said it was very common for dominant males to fluctuate often in size and get very big after returning back from periods where they've not been seen often. She thinks that may have been the case for Joker as well.

She told me Joker was quite a bit bigger than Robusto, a jaguar that weighed almost 140 kg as well. She said Joker was a "dinosaur", and sent me the following picture of his capture:


*This image is copyright of its original author

He's an absolute beast, and if you look at his mid section, he was completely empty bellied too! You're looking at a jaguar with prehistoric proportions akin to a lion or tiger.

On the second capture the team had a similar problem where he started to wake up earlier from the anesthesia so they left him, she said they were quite frustrated they couldn't get his total weight on that capture.

Overall I maintain my position that Joker is bigger than López, perhaps we can compare them side by side and see how they fare? Caiman Ecological Refuge is the perfect example of an area where jaguars have been allowed to flourished and as a result they've begin to express sizes similar to what they expressed in prehistoric times. I can't put into words how grateful I am for the work Onçafari does.
He's definitely a huge Jaguar, no doubt about it. But measurements won't lie, if she can present those they'd be much more useful. As Edu said, he didn't notice any difference but it may be different. 
I'd also be curious what protocol they used this time around. 
In regards to Lopez v Joker, I don't think the angles will allow a proper comparison but Joker is certainly in his league regardless.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Funny I just posted the comparison between him, Lopez, and Slamlet on the size comparison thread:


*This image is copyright of its original author

She told me that the first time they captured Joker it was very cold and they were trying to hurry because he was waking up from the anesthesia so she isn't sure that the measurements were taken with complete accuracy. The second time they prioritized getting his weight so I don't think they took all his measurements this time, besides perhaps his total body length. 

Edu was not present on this capture but she was, and she said he likely grew bigger, maybe the measurements from his first capture were inputted in the file because they could not get them all the second time, and that's why he didn't notice a difference. Overall both jaguars are clearly in the same weight class regardless, both being enormous, but to me, Joker just seems much ripped and muscular, if you look at his chest girth you can see he looks broader than Lopez and Slamlet, he's a special cat.
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(03-13-2021, 03:08 AM)Balam Wrote:
(03-13-2021, 03:00 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(03-13-2021, 02:28 AM)Balam Wrote: @Pckts @Dark Jaguar @Rage2277 @epaiva 

So guys I have more exciting developments to share here. I've been speaking with Lilian the president of Onçafari as I wanted to get to the bottom of the case with Joker. 

She sent me voice notes and honestly I'm not comfortable sharing private conversations with biologists on here anymore as it is easy for ill intended people to use them for their purposes on different forums, but I've been speaking with many of them over the past few months and they've shared a lot of really good insights.

Lilian told me that she was present during Joker's second capture last year unlike Edu, she told me that the Onçafari team decided a few years back that it would make sense for the most equipped person to be the one in charge of getting the measurements of jaguars, her being that person. She said that including her there were three people around Joker during the time he was captured, and I was correct on my previous assertion, she told me that the 140 kg value for Joker was indeed recorded on the scale, but he so heavy that they could not position him on the right angle and the scale stopped a couple of times at 140 kg, but she reaffirmed that the value could not be recorded in its entirely, hence why they have him as "more than 140 kg".

She said Joker was a massive jaguar and there was a possibility that he got even bigger in his second capture compared to the first one. To make this assessment she told me something that I also said here before a couple of months back (she reaffirmed so many of my hypothesis without me asking her), she mentioned Felino. When Felino was first captured he was young and inexperienced, he then left the area and returned back significantly bigger. I mentioned a couple of months back how much bigger Felino had gotten when he was seen mating with massive 92 kg female Nusa on 2018, you be the judges:


*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

She said it was very common for dominant males to fluctuate often in size and get very big after returning back from periods where they've not been seen often. She thinks that may have been the case for Joker as well.

She told me Joker was quite a bit bigger than Robusto, a jaguar that weighed almost 140 kg as well. She said Joker was a "dinosaur", and sent me the following picture of his capture:


*This image is copyright of its original author

He's an absolute beast, and if you look at his mid section, he was completely empty bellied too! You're looking at a jaguar with prehistoric proportions akin to a lion or tiger.

On the second capture the team had a similar problem where he started to wake up earlier from the anesthesia so they left him, she said they were quite frustrated they couldn't get his total weight on that capture.

Overall I maintain my position that Joker is bigger than López, perhaps we can compare them side by side and see how they fare? Caiman Ecological Refuge is the perfect example of an area where jaguars have been allowed to flourished and as a result they've begin to express sizes similar to what they expressed in prehistoric times. I can't put into words how grateful I am for the work Onçafari does.
He's definitely a huge Jaguar, no doubt about it. But measurements won't lie, if she can present those they'd be much more useful. As Edu said, he didn't notice any difference but it may be different. 
I'd also be curious what protocol they used this time around. 
In regards to Lopez v Joker, I don't think the angles will allow a proper comparison but Joker is certainly in his league regardless.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Funny I just posted the comparison between him, Lopez, and Slamlet on the size comparison thread:


*This image is copyright of its original author

She told me that the first time they captured Joker it was very cold and they were trying to hurry because he was waking up from the anesthesia so she isn't sure that the measurements were taken with complete accuracy. The second time they prioritized getting his weight so I don't think they took all his measurements this time, besides perhaps his total body length. 

Edu was not present on this capture but she was, and she said he likely grew bigger, maybe the measurements from his first capture were inputted in the file because they could not get them all the second time, and that's why he didn't notice a difference. Overall both jaguars are clearly in the same weight class regardless, both being enormous, but to me, Joker just seems much ripped and muscular, if you look at his chest girth you can see he looks broader than Lopez and Slamlet, he's a special cat.

But Edu was present for the first capture and provided detail of the measurement protocol. And oddly enough he said the same thing about others in the program taking measurements incorrectly and described issues between individuals when taking measurements. And while Joker may or may not of increased in size from the first capture, she wouldn't know unless she was involved in the first capture or could compare measurements and protocol used. 

In regards to comparing their chest, you need to take into account limb position. Notice Lopez and Slamlet both have their limbs in crisscrossing angles which opens up your clavicle to drop your arms down further in a slot. Imagine sleeping on your side, if you were to sleep with your arms in their position, your chest would sink down but if you were to position your top arm on your hip you would have an increased width since your chest would be more upright.
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(03-13-2021, 03:18 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(03-13-2021, 03:08 AM)Balam Wrote:
(03-13-2021, 03:00 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(03-13-2021, 02:28 AM)Balam Wrote: @Pckts @Dark Jaguar @Rage2277 @epaiva 

So guys I have more exciting developments to share here. I've been speaking with Lilian the president of Onçafari as I wanted to get to the bottom of the case with Joker. 

She sent me voice notes and honestly I'm not comfortable sharing private conversations with biologists on here anymore as it is easy for ill intended people to use them for their purposes on different forums, but I've been speaking with many of them over the past few months and they've shared a lot of really good insights.

Lilian told me that she was present during Joker's second capture last year unlike Edu, she told me that the Onçafari team decided a few years back that it would make sense for the most equipped person to be the one in charge of getting the measurements of jaguars, her being that person. She said that including her there were three people around Joker during the time he was captured, and I was correct on my previous assertion, she told me that the 140 kg value for Joker was indeed recorded on the scale, but he so heavy that they could not position him on the right angle and the scale stopped a couple of times at 140 kg, but she reaffirmed that the value could not be recorded in its entirely, hence why they have him as "more than 140 kg".

She said Joker was a massive jaguar and there was a possibility that he got even bigger in his second capture compared to the first one. To make this assessment she told me something that I also said here before a couple of months back (she reaffirmed so many of my hypothesis without me asking her), she mentioned Felino. When Felino was first captured he was young and inexperienced, he then left the area and returned back significantly bigger. I mentioned a couple of months back how much bigger Felino had gotten when he was seen mating with massive 92 kg female Nusa on 2018, you be the judges:


*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

She said it was very common for dominant males to fluctuate often in size and get very big after returning back from periods where they've not been seen often. She thinks that may have been the case for Joker as well.

She told me Joker was quite a bit bigger than Robusto, a jaguar that weighed almost 140 kg as well. She said Joker was a "dinosaur", and sent me the following picture of his capture:


*This image is copyright of its original author

He's an absolute beast, and if you look at his mid section, he was completely empty bellied too! You're looking at a jaguar with prehistoric proportions akin to a lion or tiger.

On the second capture the team had a similar problem where he started to wake up earlier from the anesthesia so they left him, she said they were quite frustrated they couldn't get his total weight on that capture.

Overall I maintain my position that Joker is bigger than López, perhaps we can compare them side by side and see how they fare? Caiman Ecological Refuge is the perfect example of an area where jaguars have been allowed to flourished and as a result they've begin to express sizes similar to what they expressed in prehistoric times. I can't put into words how grateful I am for the work Onçafari does.
He's definitely a huge Jaguar, no doubt about it. But measurements won't lie, if she can present those they'd be much more useful. As Edu said, he didn't notice any difference but it may be different. 
I'd also be curious what protocol they used this time around. 
In regards to Lopez v Joker, I don't think the angles will allow a proper comparison but Joker is certainly in his league regardless.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Funny I just posted the comparison between him, Lopez, and Slamlet on the size comparison thread:


*This image is copyright of its original author

She told me that the first time they captured Joker it was very cold and they were trying to hurry because he was waking up from the anesthesia so she isn't sure that the measurements were taken with complete accuracy. The second time they prioritized getting his weight so I don't think they took all his measurements this time, besides perhaps his total body length. 

Edu was not present on this capture but she was, and she said he likely grew bigger, maybe the measurements from his first capture were inputted in the file because they could not get them all the second time, and that's why he didn't notice a difference. Overall both jaguars are clearly in the same weight class regardless, both being enormous, but to me, Joker just seems much ripped and muscular, if you look at his chest girth you can see he looks broader than Lopez and Slamlet, he's a special cat.

But Edu was present for the first capture and provided detail of the measurement protocol. And oddly enough he said the same thing about others in the program taking measurements incorrectly and described issues between individuals when taking measurements. And while Joker may or may not of increased in size from the first capture, she wouldn't know unless she was involved in the first capture or could compare measurements and protocol used. 

In regards to comparing their chest, you need to take into account limb position. Notice Lopez and Slamlet both have their limbs in crisscrossing angles which opens up your clavicle to drop your arms down further in a slot. Imagine sleeping on your side, if you were to sleep with your arms in their position, your chest would sink down but if you were to position your top arm on your hip you would have an increased width since your chest would be more upright.

Lilian was present on the first capture as well, she saw him both times and she does think he may have gotten bigger, that's why she mentioned Felino so much to me because she wanted to emphasize how much jaguars can fluctuate in size from one season to another. You can see Felino was dwarfing one of the largest females from the area.

About the arms, the angle certainly favors joker but the muscle definition doesn't lie, IMO he is easily the most muscular and ripped cat out of the three.
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(03-13-2021, 03:22 AM)Balam Wrote:
(03-13-2021, 03:18 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(03-13-2021, 03:08 AM)Balam Wrote:
(03-13-2021, 03:00 AM)Pckts Wrote:
(03-13-2021, 02:28 AM)Balam Wrote: @Pckts @Dark Jaguar @Rage2277 @epaiva 

So guys I have more exciting developments to share here. I've been speaking with Lilian the president of Onçafari as I wanted to get to the bottom of the case with Joker. 

She sent me voice notes and honestly I'm not comfortable sharing private conversations with biologists on here anymore as it is easy for ill intended people to use them for their purposes on different forums, but I've been speaking with many of them over the past few months and they've shared a lot of really good insights.

Lilian told me that she was present during Joker's second capture last year unlike Edu, she told me that the Onçafari team decided a few years back that it would make sense for the most equipped person to be the one in charge of getting the measurements of jaguars, her being that person. She said that including her there were three people around Joker during the time he was captured, and I was correct on my previous assertion, she told me that the 140 kg value for Joker was indeed recorded on the scale, but he so heavy that they could not position him on the right angle and the scale stopped a couple of times at 140 kg, but she reaffirmed that the value could not be recorded in its entirely, hence why they have him as "more than 140 kg".

She said Joker was a massive jaguar and there was a possibility that he got even bigger in his second capture compared to the first one. To make this assessment she told me something that I also said here before a couple of months back (she reaffirmed so many of my hypothesis without me asking her), she mentioned Felino. When Felino was first captured he was young and inexperienced, he then left the area and returned back significantly bigger. I mentioned a couple of months back how much bigger Felino had gotten when he was seen mating with massive 92 kg female Nusa on 2018, you be the judges:


*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

She said it was very common for dominant males to fluctuate often in size and get very big after returning back from periods where they've not been seen often. She thinks that may have been the case for Joker as well.

She told me Joker was quite a bit bigger than Robusto, a jaguar that weighed almost 140 kg as well. She said Joker was a "dinosaur", and sent me the following picture of his capture:


*This image is copyright of its original author

He's an absolute beast, and if you look at his mid section, he was completely empty bellied too! You're looking at a jaguar with prehistoric proportions akin to a lion or tiger.

On the second capture the team had a similar problem where he started to wake up earlier from the anesthesia so they left him, she said they were quite frustrated they couldn't get his total weight on that capture.

Overall I maintain my position that Joker is bigger than López, perhaps we can compare them side by side and see how they fare? Caiman Ecological Refuge is the perfect example of an area where jaguars have been allowed to flourished and as a result they've begin to express sizes similar to what they expressed in prehistoric times. I can't put into words how grateful I am for the work Onçafari does.
He's definitely a huge Jaguar, no doubt about it. But measurements won't lie, if she can present those they'd be much more useful. As Edu said, he didn't notice any difference but it may be different. 
I'd also be curious what protocol they used this time around. 
In regards to Lopez v Joker, I don't think the angles will allow a proper comparison but Joker is certainly in his league regardless.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Funny I just posted the comparison between him, Lopez, and Slamlet on the size comparison thread:


*This image is copyright of its original author

She told me that the first time they captured Joker it was very cold and they were trying to hurry because he was waking up from the anesthesia so she isn't sure that the measurements were taken with complete accuracy. The second time they prioritized getting his weight so I don't think they took all his measurements this time, besides perhaps his total body length. 

Edu was not present on this capture but she was, and she said he likely grew bigger, maybe the measurements from his first capture were inputted in the file because they could not get them all the second time, and that's why he didn't notice a difference. Overall both jaguars are clearly in the same weight class regardless, both being enormous, but to me, Joker just seems much ripped and muscular, if you look at his chest girth you can see he looks broader than Lopez and Slamlet, he's a special cat.

But Edu was present for the first capture and provided detail of the measurement protocol. And oddly enough he said the same thing about others in the program taking measurements incorrectly and described issues between individuals when taking measurements. And while Joker may or may not of increased in size from the first capture, she wouldn't know unless she was involved in the first capture or could compare measurements and protocol used. 

In regards to comparing their chest, you need to take into account limb position. Notice Lopez and Slamlet both have their limbs in crisscrossing angles which opens up your clavicle to drop your arms down further in a slot. Imagine sleeping on your side, if you were to sleep with your arms in their position, your chest would sink down but if you were to position your top arm on your hip you would have an increased width since your chest would be more upright.

Lilian was present on the first capture as well, she saw him both times and she does think he may have gotten bigger, that's why she mentioned Felino so much to me because she wanted to emphasize how much jaguars can fluctuate in size from one season to another. You can see Felino was dwarfing one of the largest females from the area.

About the arms, the angle certainly favors joker but the muscle definition doesn't lie, IMO he is easily the most muscular and ripped cat out of the three.
She was present when Edu captured him and made measurements?
I believe he was captured twice before this last time, correct?
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