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Male tiger ustaad T-24 killed forest gaurd in Ranthambore
Male tiger ustaad T-24 killed forest gaurd in Ranthambore
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Male tiger ustaad T-24 killed forest gaurd in Ranthambore
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I don't think that photographers are better than anyone here. They only live there and have the chance to take pictures, that is all; I could take pictures of jaguars in my country, but that doesn't make me an "expert" in jaguars, put in eye on this. I am pretty sure that many of us here knows 1,000 times more about tigers than them in they entire "career" taking pictures.
There is a difference between "empiric" knowledge and "scientific" knowledge, and most of them lack (and even attack) this last one. You can defend the opinion of photographers, that is fair, but there is no need to exaggerate they skills. About the captivity of the tiger, that is a very controversial point, I even remember the words of Dr Charles McDougal, he think (in those old days, at least) that if we most decide between shooting a tiger or put it in a cage (after an entire life in the wild), it will be better to shoot it. This is a deep thought, don't you think? What happen when a wild dominant animal is put in captivity? What are they psychological reactions? Ahhhh, and before ANYONE here start saying that I am asking to kill the tiger, I am just QUOTING the words of Dr McDougal, that is all, OK? Don't even try to start a debate about this. 
When we debate about a group (photographers in this case) and not a particular one, then people who involve in debate start picking those people (from the group) who fit in their assumption during debate. They both are true because in the group all kind of people may be found, the one that fit with the assumption of people in debate who support it and the others that fit with rest of the people who are in oppose of it.
Guate and Rofl wants to pick the people who are just photographer from the group Where as I and pckts picks those who are photographer but also involved in animal more deeply. This is never ending debate as we pick people according to our assumption that prove our point. So stop commenting on photographer and focus on more serious points. I agree on Guate views that It is better to shoot the species in place of keeping him in captivity, at least he will not suffer the pain and depression. Discussion should be on below points- 1. Is it not a fast and quick decision by RTR to move Ustaad ? 2. Why the Hotel and lobby owner and Tour operator are playing dominant role in decision of Forest officials ? 3. Why did forest official didn't consider the fate of 10 months old cubs of ustaad and other related consequences? 4. What is the correct definition of man eater and is ustaad really comes under it ? 5. Why the places like ranthambore is crowded with people and disturb tigers to take good images ? 6. To make tourist happy, why tigers are followed and corner by gypsy so that the guest of tour operator get clear images and become happy with their service? 7. If tiger population is increasing in india then why there is no solid steps to increase the living area of tigers ? 8. Isn't ustaad is different tiger and he must be treated like that? 9. Is captivity or shooting is only solution ? 10. Why not shift the tigers like ustaad in different places where no tourism take place ? This incident of ustaad has shown the black world of tiger conservation and tourism. They all are working for thick money with tourist and not very concerned about real tiger conservation. 
I'd prefer to keep problem tigers alive in captivity out of the two choices simply to establish a new lineage. It's an unfortunate cost to the animal, but at least something is coming out of it.
Now, on Ustad's case. Is the facility he was moved to a commercial zoo? Is there any monetary motivation? Also, wouldn't this discussion be better for a new topic?  (05-20-2015, 06:27 AM)sanjay Wrote: Rofl, Not all photographer but some very good wildlife expert is also against the captivity of t-24. So don't give excuse of wildlife experts support. Clearly majority is against Captivity and it includes some experts as well. This is not matter of sentimental thinking but many other people who are against captivity of t-24 are wise and thinking from mind. Sanjay bhaiya, you need to understand the ground reality before thinking of the Sariska Proposal and also. Why would a tiger reserve that faced local extinction not too long ago want a tiger like T24 roaming in their jungle? Almost every tiger reserve in India is crowded and by crowded. I dont mean the animals, Im talking about the humans living in villages inside the park. I read about the Sariska proposal on facebook as well and i honestly thought it was the dumbest idea. Whoever came up with that clearly doesnt know the ground reality. Rehabilitation is not easy, especially for a tiger like T24. he has killed 4 people, isnt that an eye opener and Im not talking about the highly reputed photographers here, im talking about the bad apples that see situations like this and start attacking the scientific community. Honestly these people arent the brightest of the individuals. Some even went as far as saying that the forest guard deserved to die. That is absolutely disgusting and what really is your stance? Where can you possibly relocate a man-killer? Which park would happily accept T24? have you ever thought about that? People are attacking Bittu Sahgal, Aditya Singh, Dr.Valmik thappar for simply going with the idea of captive life for such a tiger? How is that a bad thing? I find it funny how everyone is driven by their ego and fanaticism. People need to start using their heads and really think this through. The 4 people killed are far too many lives, does a human life not mean anything to any of you? And mind you, This has nothing to do with the good photographers. I look up to a lot of them and have been doing that for years but this isnt about them. Its about the expert wannabe commenters on facebook. So badly driven by their fanaticism, face it. A problem tiger like T24 would've been hunted down and destroyed anywhere else in North East India, Central India or South India. He's lucky to be even alive and I honestly aint happy to see him like that but given the circumstances. Id rather have him there than the wild. Just remember, every life matters and this is the best outcome for T24.
Rofl, You never answered about other concern I asked?
Ustaad never came out of his territory to kill the human. Have you noticed the behavior of Aditya and others ? Blocking people who do not agree with him and how do you consider them scientist ? Only Valmik is reliable person. Off course bad people are on both side, Some of expert are saying I would have shot dead the T-24 on the spot. Removing ustaad is the permanent solution ? What if other tiger kill people inside park ? Your expert will also remove them ? Don't you think the 4 kills by ustaad is also due to human error ? why go outside for relief, forest guard should be armed with latest tech? Bhai shab galtiya dono taraf se hui hain, human ne jayad ki hain. What about man eater of Sunderban ? Ask your experts to go and remove those tiger also ? They will not because they do not run their business in sunderban They are only concern about RTR because they run their business there I think its time to move this topic in discussion area, Requesting Mods
Here is one interesting story I found on fb related to this news -
"Last week I was at Ranthambore n I heard the story as follows --This forest guards wife visited to the post in the evening n told the guard that there is tiger in the water hole below the post n she needs to go n collect fire wood so she needs him to chase the tiger from that area so that she can collect fire wood without any fear. So this foolish guard has gone with a stick to the water to chase the tiger. n water holes is below the access road to the park there is a belt of thick forest width about 6 to 7 meters wide. So guard has to cross this small belt of forest n go specially chasing the tiger.But no one cannot say which tiger did this n 30 minute after the incident T24 found around the area n one hr later Sulthan found close to this area. But what does that proves T24 is the killer n another tiger cannot do this ??? Officials are finding a way to just to get out from the issue. Why cannot they look at the fact that forest guard just brought this on himself n tigers are tigers this is how they live the fight back any threat if the can over power it. So why this cruelty on T24 !!!!"  (05-20-2015, 09:55 AM)'GuateGojira' Wrote: I don't think that photographers are better than anyone here. They only live there and have the chance to take pictures, that is all; I could take pictures of jaguars in my country, but that doesn't make me an "expert" in jaguars, put in eye on this. I am pretty sure that many of us here knows 1,000 times more about tigers than them in they entire "career" taking pictures. I think photographers see the impact of these wild animals far better than we do sitting behind a computer screen. They get to talk with actual witnesses and the people who actually live in these areas. They are able to take the "pulse" of the community. They get to build actual relationships with these animals and see how they are mistreated first hand. I think the debate is really this..... What's better for the tiger in the long run? One individuals right to be a "Tiger" or the protection of Humans which are bringing a financial gain to the countries and in turn will HOPEFULLY bring further protection and land increase to all wild animals. But my problem is this... Where do we draw the line? So any animal that attacks a human that interferes in its territory is to be removed? Think about the effect, Tigers, Lions, Leopards, Elephants, Rhinos, Buffalo etc. Were we to remove all these creatures, where do we put them? Zoos are already over crowded and mistreat these animals, its a huge problem that will only grow if we continue this way of thinking. Are we to take these protectors, fathers, mothers, Wild Animals, that know nothing else other than to be wild and remove them from their land. In turn, only allow the "human friendly" ones to survive. That by definition is being Domesticated. We are not allowed to pick and choose the traits we see fit in wild animals and dictate who can stay and who can go. We should never try to possess such a power over other living creatures. Its wrong and will cause chaos and controversy between us. The heat is on for Ustad, Stronger support. Thank you all. video courtesy : Pankaj Sharma. https://www.facebook.com/tigeraj/videos/...=2&theater There is far more than just "random photographers" standing up for ustad. The former forest minister for one, is a voice speaking against his move. The other people I have mentioned, and many more. He has created a rift between a community, whether that rift is good or bad in the long run, remains to be seen. (05-20-2015, 09:38 PM)'Pckts' Wrote: I think photographers see the impact of these wild animals far better than we do sitting behind a computer screen. They get to talk with actual witnesses and the people who actually live in these areas. They are able to take the "pulse" of the community. They get to build actual relationships with these animals and see how they are mistreated first hand.I don't want to deviate of the topic, but I think is necessary to clarify some issues. I don't think that photographers see any impact or get any "pulse", because they are normally not aware of the scientific point of view. Most photographers are "biased" and don't present solutions for the problems, only opinions and even attacks to certain groups. Most of them care about the "individual" and not see the full panorama of the situation and how this can affect the species in the long therm. Instead of only protest, they should create plans of actions and support investigations in order to see if this tiger is the man-eater that some persons say it is. That is important to take in count. Other thing, I don't know how some poster classify themselves here, but posters like Peter, Tigerluver or I, don't know tigers only behind computer screens, we have made "field" work collecting and presenting literature, contacting real scientists that have made long term studies with scientific approaches and quantitative information based in Science. Photographers mostly present only the "singles" cases that they are able to see and in some cases, barely understand, but sadly none of them publish anything apart from they pictures. I think that if they have "real" information, like Pckts assume, they should start to summarize it and publish the results, even if it is in a webpage or forum, in order to collect all the data from they community, and only in that form it will be possible to convert all that "qualitative" data in "quantitative" information. In other words, they experiences and little glimpses are very important, but it should be collected, analyzed and finally presented to the scientific community. Nobody dismiss they founds, but Science needs evidence and information in "order". I will like to see complete stories of the modern tigers in Ranthambore, like have done Valmik Thapar in his books, but sadly the only thing that we have are random reports of several photographers, on several webpages, that even they are unable to interconnect them. Am I explaining myself, or am going too deep? Hope you understand my point of view, now we can continue with the true point of the topic: the situation and destiny of Ustad and if he is a man-eater or just a wild animal that is tired of humans.
This debate is again on 2 bank of rivers, it will never meet.
Pckts are saying different thing and Guate saying different. According to pckts photographers are better than us (specially those who never see tiger in wild and do not involve in data collection). I agree a real visual perception is better than nothing, A photographer who live in forest 20 days a month and take images, see them live, notice them in front are more reliable when they say something related to behavior to that animal. But if they comments about scientific facts like body mass, weight skull etc then that can not be taken as final words, Depending upon the individual we should agree on his information. Same for scientist, Some scientist data is not reliable as other simply because they also tend to bias, wrong use of measurement tools and many other reason. So if a scientist say the body measurement of particular tiger is xyz and a photographer claim something different, we will definitely agree with scientist But If a Photographer say particular tiger is 4 year old because he is taking images of him from his childhood and a scientific person calculate the tiger age different, I will go with photographer in this case. So its depend on things. This is not photographers vs scientist debate. We should talk about T-24 here
I don´t agree. Like I told you, I can go and take thousands of pictures to wild jaguars in my country, but still I will not be an expert and this is because I am only able to see a small glimpse of the life of these animals and not the full context of the daily life time, that can be understand only trough long therm studies.
Also, tigers are very secretive animals and even IF those guys are "20" days in the wild, they are able to see only small parts of they daily activity, mostly in the day and for a few seconds. In this form, is not possible to see the entire panorama, again it is important to understand the difference between "qualitative data" and "quantitative data". I have repeated this many times, I am surprise that no one have discussed the differences between these two concepts. Sanjay, you focused in "measurements", but I am stating about "behavior". Scientists have found that tigers are not "tigers" per se, they can't be classified in the popular cliches. Even in the India, the behavior, social and territorial relationships are different depending of the habitat and prey levels, but this has been found trough a large collection of data in long therm studies. A few photographs without the correct "context" can't explain this phenomenon. I will always support Scientists, because you need education, time, passion and great efforts to became one of them. Like a professional, I support the academic effort overall. On the other side, what authority can have a guy with an ability (pictures) against a well trained and studied person, specially when they know the modern literature available and contact colleges in the field? An artist is not the same than an Architect, if you know what I mean. Well, I think that I have gone to far. Forget this issue, continue with the case of Ustad.
And I don't agree completely with you in this case guate, Anyway we can keep going this forever. I decide to quit the photographer debate with my final decision of supporting them on certain cases. Please don't reply to convince me
@Gaute,
To my knowledge, Only peter has first hand experience with Big Cats, correct? And only with Captive species from a distance. I don't believe @tigerluver or Yourself has actual hands on experience with big cats, Correct? If you have, my apologies. Thats all I mean by "Behind a computer screen" But none of you have the experience with tigers that these people who spend all day with them in the wild do, just saying. I'm sure you all can agree with that. Most of us here have far more knowledge than many others when it comes to measurements, weights, girth, records, etc. But all of that information would not be possible without the people on the front lines. We are happy to use first hand photographers images, statements about Waghdoh compared to other tigers, etc. It just does them a disservice to discredit them sometimes and use their information other times. As fans of collecting information, we need all of it. Eye witness accounts are just as important as measurements or weights etc. Its our job to take it all in and try to come to conclusion. I obviously believe that somebody who witnesses these tigers first hand is far more reliable to determine animal behavior, size compared to others or size in general. They are also a great source when learning about humans behavior towards them, how tourists or guards treat them and most importantly, how the country receives them. Its like trying to determine how a country feels about a politician from pictures or news reports compared to discussing it with the people who actually live there and deal with it every day. I also notice that you try to split the community between photographers and scientist, but really a scientist or biologist is meaningless unless they are also a Photographer, observer and data collector. You would never accept any biologists word unless they had first hand experience with these animals. Packer, Corbett, Schuller, Singh, Sunquist, etc. All are photographers, videographers and so on. You can't have one with out the other, to try and split them is not possible, they go hand and hand. Now back to the topic.... http://www.ibnlive.com/news/india/tiger-...94900.html Its been decided that Ustad will no longer be allowed back in the forest. He has been sentenced to stay in his enclosure by a court ruling. What a sad day, and a 2nd thought that disturbs me, Was Valmik Singh's lie where he claims that Ustad was eating fine in his enclosure. Ustad has not been eating at all and this has been reported by many, It makes me question Valmik more after that. You can even see how skinny he has become. Here is a petition from the Chief wildlife warden to save Ustad https://www.change.org/p/chief-wildlife-...ef=Default Look at this madness........... https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=...824&type=1 To harass this beast like this is a joke, to not expect him to retaliate is ridicolous, the fact that it happens so rarely is the real miracle. 
My friends,
Some years ago, an adult male tiger killed and partly consumed a human in Ranthambore. He was given the benefit of the doubt and the result was three more were killed. After the last kill, there was an uproar, a debate and a trial. The tiger was sentenced to life and that was the end of it. One could argue the trial was a bit hasty, but it also is a fact Ranthambore is visited by many people. Villagers, tourists, photographers, biologists and rangers. They want to prevent another kill and had to act quickly. One could argue the tiger wasn't a man-eater, but a man-killer. True, but it also is a fact it doesn't make a difference for the one attacked. They want to protect those who work in Ranthambore and therefore did what had to be done. Dangerous animals killing and consuming humans were taken out a century ago, they are taken out today and they will be taken out tomorrow. One could argue that the policy adopted in India regarding reserves and tourists has disadvantages and be right. But it's also true many want to see an animal like a tiger. Who are we to question a policy of a country that, in spite of the enormous population, managed to keep tigers alive until today? Many members of our forum are interested in big cats. The removal of tiger T-24 is deeply regretted. Some argued T-24's behaviour was a direct or indirect result of the recent influx of people. Others argued that the leniency regarding those violating rules (tourists and villagers in most cases) backfired. Based on what I saw and read, they have a point. But it's up to those involved in decisions to get to an evaluation. They know more than we do. I noticed the debate has developed a few edges. I hope we can overcome the problems without extremes. Controversies and animosity won't help wild big cats. In order to wind it up, a few points to consider. I think we can all agree on the statement that the days of wild places and wild animals are past and gone. In the near future, reserves, and those that attract many tourists in particular, will develop into safari parks with holiday resorts, hotels and all the rest of it. It is inevitable that the behaviour of the animals will be affected and it's also inevitable that animals who do not adapt will be taken out sooner or later. If not, public opinion on dangerous animals and protection will change. Those who have experience with captive big cats agree that some animals will not adapt. Some say one in ten and others think it's a bit more or less. Animals who do not get along with humans or other animals usually are isolated, but not destroyed. Not in circuses, I mean. In zoo's, it's quite another matter. In the long run, the selection will have effects. For those interested in the wild past, there's always the extinction threads. Some time in the near future, we will publish a few documents about the past and the present. My guess is those working with big cats and zoos will be interested. Most threads are about here and now and they will enable us to take note of developments in reserves in many continents. Our planet is inhabited by many creatures. It's quite a place to behold. Like most, I hope it will never change, but reality says it changes all the time. We've had the day of the dino's, but today is the day of humans. It could last for many more years and it could change in the next years. You just never know. I propose to continue on big cats in the way we did. It's the best possible contribution to those without a voice.
Check out this Craziness...Vijayagovindarajan DeenadayalanSanctuary Asia May 24 · WHO IS CORNERED?
WHO IS TEASED? WHO IS SCARED OFF? WHO IS SHOT? WHO IS FRIGHTENED? WHO IS RUNNING FOR LIFE? WHO IS CHASED? WHO IS ACTUALLY CAGED? WHO IS GOING TO ANSWER? or WHICH EVER TIGER REACTS.......IS CAPTURED AND CAGED?? ARE WE MAKING A NEW SPECIES CALLED "MAN-MADE MAN EATERS"— with Manoj Aaskar.  *This image is copyright of its original author The Free Ustad act is catching on... Gaining support from forest guards in other areas now....Nishant ChandraraoSanctuary Asia May 24 · And now the Lions of Gir want their "Cousin" T24 aka Ustad to be out of jail. Catching Fire!!! #BringUstadBack #T24  *This image is copyright of its original author Tushar ChopawarSanctuary Asia1 hr · Pench roars for Ustad!! Who could have imagined that love for a tiger could unite people barring all their differences ? This is the picture of Pench Maharashtra where the tourists as well as Forest Department guards agreed to lend their voice for #SaveUstad campaign.... They were extremely sad with fate of Mr. Rampal Saini but they also believed that it was their duty to save tigers and without a fair trial, Ustad didn't deserve a jail term.... They happily agreed to be Ustad's voice..... Pench roars for Ustad ! Who's next ? #PenchRoarsForUstad #SaveUstad #iamUstad  *This image is copyright of its original author And finally this is the most disturbing part, the more I read about Ranthambhore the more the unanimous consensus is that it the most poorly ran and mismanaged facility in all of india. Its "VIP" tourists and under trained guards are mistreating it. Milind ValawalkarSanctuary Asia13 hrs · Zone 3 at Ranthambhore, 20th May 2015 Morning safari. I had booked our safari seats exactly 90 days in advance at midnight when the booking opens. There were just 3 gypsies (18 seats) available online which got booked in 2 minutes, 90 days in advance. If there were only 3 vehicles available then, who can explain the 10 vehicles here plus some vehicles which were following our gypsy? Who are these VIP's?? I have heard that in RTR anybody is a VIP - Central Ministers, State ministers, sons & daughters of ministers, nephews & nieces of ministers, friends of the nephews & nieces of ministers, relatives of friends of nephews & nieces of ministers. I have seen even foreign photographers in these VIP vehicles. When will this corruption stop ?? Are Vasundhararajeji or CM's of other states or the big man Modiji himself even aware of people in their ministries & their relatives committing these atrocities on our jungles & wildlife ????  *This image is copyright of its original author Yogesh Paradkar Previously I had same experience with one of the big politicians Daughter who also a politician.There Gypsy s are first to get in though mine is first on the gate. They are on Gypsy s but if they sighted any Tiger or leopard....the RANGER with the gypsy restricted other Gypsy s not to click a pictures of a Tiger. because the Tiger was in front of there Gypsy n photographers might click politicians photos with Tiger. So pathetic..... as other Gypsy's missed the Tiger. 2ndly we cant go ahead of there Gypsy...... These assholes took Rangers or RFO in there Gypsy s. |
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