There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
(12-09-2020, 06:28 AM)Slayerd Wrote: I was actually surprised to hear the guide say Red Road was that big. I knew he was a big male but Junior and DM have also been mentioned as huge too. I guess appearance on camera is deceiving just like how Nhenha is the largest in Sabi Sands but people think others are larger. I think it also comes with the fact that he has still been coming into his peak unlike the Othawa Male. They are around the same age but have different developments. His size also makes me think the 3 Nharu females who are the Birmingham Boys sisters are huge lionesses as they look decently sized next to Red Road. @Tr1x24 you said all the Avocas besides DM are average but remember photographers and guides say the Ring Eyed Southern Avoca is larger.
Regarding lion sizes, Are a lot of different opinions through the community, In spite of Nhenha is known as the largest male in the Sabi Sands currently, The Red road male has something special, He's 1 year younger than the northern Avoca males and he is much bigger than them. That's a truly beast, Without a doubt!
I think it's the same thing for Nhenha and Red Road. Just like this guide stated that he is the largest, the same goes for Nhenha as he was stated to be the largest by them as well. Red Road might be a year younger but he is still already in his prime, so he is already reaching his peak just like the Othawa Male. He might get more muscle or bulk and his mane will grow and get darker but other than that, he will be like this for the rest of his prime until he starts ageing. He won't grow anymore. He is already an adult. Just like humans, lions don't grow after a certain age and he is beyond that age.
Yeah, He might get more muscle or bulk, As well, the colour of his mane will turn dark even more. Although he cannot grow in size he should grow in other factors that also are important for him.
12-09-2020, 05:11 PM( This post was last modified: 12-09-2020, 05:15 PM by Tr1x24 )
(12-09-2020, 04:49 PM)TinoArmando Wrote: Yeah, He might get more muscle or bulk, As well, the colour of his mane will turn dark even more. Although he cannot grow in size he should grow in other factors that also are important for him.
Red Road male is almost 7, so he is already at his physically peak pretty much..
(12-09-2020, 04:49 PM)TinoArmando Wrote: Yeah, He might get more muscle or bulk, As well, the colour of his mane will turn dark even more. Although he cannot grow in size he should grow in other factors that also are important for him.
Red Road male is almost 7, so he is already at his physically peak pretty much..
Yeah, I know, But I think, The RRM will developed in some factors, As Slayerd mentioned, Then, The RRM might look even more impressive than never in 1 or 2 years more.
(12-09-2020, 05:27 PM)TinoArmando Wrote: Yeah, I know, But I think, The RRM will developed in some factors, As Slayerd mentioned, Then, The RRM might look even more impressive than never in 1 or 2 years more.
Maybe from looks standpoint, because his mane still might grow a bit and will get darker..
(12-09-2020, 01:18 AM)sundarbans Wrote: There is always a lot of mention of the Avoca/Giraffe males in these threads. And they seem to have been a successful coalition with many of their offspring going on to breed successfully. Can anyone give me more details about the coalition? How many were they? When and where did they reign? And why are they called "Avoca/Giraffe"? Are any of them alive?
The Giraffe pride used to be a big pride with 3 bigger older males and 2 Sub males. The pride eventually split up with 4 lionesses and 9 cubs that formed the Avoca pride. They mainly moved around 5 properties in the south west of Timbavati. The Wiggil property, Klaserie Reserve and Thorneybush reserve was still fenced out at the time. Around 2006 the older males were not there anymore and 3 new males took over the 2 prides. They were the Original 3 Giraffe pride Males.
Klaserie Reserve that was fenced had the 2 Ross males with the Ross pride. Hunting took place in both reserves at the time and some point 1 Giraffe male disappeared or moved off from the other two males. The Two Ross Males were hunted and the fence between the reserves were dropped just after that time. The Ross pride were without males. The Giraffe males saw the gap and added the Ross pride to their territory. The commercial lodge in the area started naming them the Ross males and others in the area followed suit. Hence my point that these males were the Giraffe males and not the Ross males. The Giraffe males fathered the current males called the Ross Males that is currently moving around Ngala, Orpen, Northern Maneyleti and south west Timbavati. The same Giraffe Males fathered the Rockfig Male that was around Rockfig Lodge in Timbavati and moved later into Kruger Park and was seen around Bobbejaankrans, Mudzanzeni and Talamati area. They also father some other males with Avoca pride that disappeared around ages 2 and 3. The Giraffe Males also had 7 Sub males with the Giraffe pride. The 2 older males from the seven become the New Avoca Males. 2 Males went north and I did not see them again. The other 3 Males moved south and occasionally with the 2 Avoca males. That is where the people started talking about the Avoca/Giraffe coalition.
The second last offspring of the old Giraffe Male was the Young Giraffe male that moved into Thornybush through a hole that was made in the fence a few weeks before the fence got removed. He was not brothers of the same age than the others. That is the male that took over the Blackdam pride.
The 2 Avoca Males fathered 5 young Males in the Avoca pride of which 2 disappeared and the other 3 moved into Manyeleti and Sabi Sands.
Note: Those two 2 males from the Avoca pride disappeared, In fact, Are the 2 S.Avoca males... And the Giraffe males (are the old Ross males) Ziggi Hugo used to know them as the old Giraffe males. They have started to being known as the old Ross males when they have took-over the Ross pride in Klaserie
Thank you for the detailed info. If I understand correctly, the Avoca/Giraffe coalition consisted of three separate coalitions with the first coalition being the two males born in the Giraffe pride in 2007 who became known as the Avoca males, the second coalition being the four males born in the Giraffe pride in 2009 and the third being the lone Giraffe male born in 2009.
In your subsequent posts about the four 2009 Giraffe males, you mentioned a lion named Brutus. Which lion is that?
12-10-2020, 10:18 AM( This post was last modified: 12-10-2020, 10:29 AM by Tr1x24 )
(12-10-2020, 06:47 AM)sundarbans Wrote: Thank you for the detailed info. If I understand correctly, the Avoca/Giraffe coalition consisted of three separate coalitions with the first coalition being the two males born in the Giraffe pride in 2007 who became known as the Avoca males, the second coalition being the four males born in the Giraffe pride in 2009 and the third being the lone Giraffe male born in 2009.
In your subsequent posts about the four 2009 Giraffe males, you mentioned a lion named Brutus. Which lion is that?
Third/7th was born in 2011, and he was not part of that coalition..
12-10-2020, 07:14 PM( This post was last modified: 12-10-2020, 07:23 PM by T I N O )
(12-10-2020, 06:47 AM)sundarbans Wrote:
(12-09-2020, 03:12 AM)TinoArmando Wrote:
(12-09-2020, 01:18 AM)sundarbans Wrote: There is always a lot of mention of the Avoca/Giraffe males in these threads. And they seem to have been a successful coalition with many of their offspring going on to breed successfully. Can anyone give me more details about the coalition? How many were they? When and where did they reign? And why are they called "Avoca/Giraffe"? Are any of them alive?
The Giraffe pride used to be a big pride with 3 bigger older males and 2 Sub males. The pride eventually split up with 4 lionesses and 9 cubs that formed the Avoca pride. They mainly moved around 5 properties in the south west of Timbavati. The Wiggil property, Klaserie Reserve and Thorneybush reserve was still fenced out at the time. Around 2006 the older males were not there anymore and 3 new males took over the 2 prides. They were the Original 3 Giraffe pride Males.
Klaserie Reserve that was fenced had the 2 Ross males with the Ross pride. Hunting took place in both reserves at the time and some point 1 Giraffe male disappeared or moved off from the other two males. The Two Ross Males were hunted and the fence between the reserves were dropped just after that time. The Ross pride were without males. The Giraffe males saw the gap and added the Ross pride to their territory. The commercial lodge in the area started naming them the Ross males and others in the area followed suit. Hence my point that these males were the Giraffe males and not the Ross males. The Giraffe males fathered the current males called the Ross Males that is currently moving around Ngala, Orpen, Northern Maneyleti and south west Timbavati. The same Giraffe Males fathered the Rockfig Male that was around Rockfig Lodge in Timbavati and moved later into Kruger Park and was seen around Bobbejaankrans, Mudzanzeni and Talamati area. They also father some other males with Avoca pride that disappeared around ages 2 and 3. The Giraffe Males also had 7 Sub males with the Giraffe pride. The 2 older males from the seven become the New Avoca Males. 2 Males went north and I did not see them again. The other 3 Males moved south and occasionally with the 2 Avoca males. That is where the people started talking about the Avoca/Giraffe coalition.
The second last offspring of the old Giraffe Male was the Young Giraffe male that moved into Thornybush through a hole that was made in the fence a few weeks before the fence got removed. He was not brothers of the same age than the others. That is the male that took over the Blackdam pride.
The 2 Avoca Males fathered 5 young Males in the Avoca pride of which 2 disappeared and the other 3 moved into Manyeleti and Sabi Sands.
Note: Those two 2 males from the Avoca pride disappeared, In fact, Are the 2 S.Avoca males... And the Giraffe males (are the old Ross males) Ziggi Hugo used to know them as the old Giraffe males. They have started to being known as the old Ross males when they have took-over the Ross pride in Klaserie
Thank you for the detailed info. If I understand correctly, the Avoca/Giraffe coalition consisted of three separate coalitions with the first coalition being the two males born in the Giraffe pride in 2007 who became known as the Avoca males, the second coalition being the four males born in the Giraffe pride in 2009 and the third being the lone Giraffe male born in 2009.
In your subsequent posts about the four 2009 Giraffe males, you mentioned a lion named Brutus. Which lion is that?
Brutus was born in 2007, Brutus and his brother took-over the Avoca pride in 2013 and sired the 5 Avoca males and some lionesses which still are in the Avoca pride.
When they took-over the Avoca pride, the Avoca/Giraffe coalition was being to known in the Timbavati and Manyeleti.
The Avoca/Giraffe coalition consisted in six males.
There was 1 youngest male who don't formed part of the coalition. That youngest male was born in 2011 went into Thornybush, Pushing out the Blackdam male and became dominant of the Black dam pride since then.
Unfortunately, The Giraffe male (Born in 2011) is missing since months ago, He went into a private property known as Sandringham dam where existed cases of poaching.
12-11-2020, 08:18 PM( This post was last modified: 12-11-2020, 08:23 PM by Tr1x24 )
Focus & Intent...
One of the 2 Skorro males on the trot, chasing after the Birmingham pride at Ngala Private Game Reserve
Photo credit: Dylan Davies
Timbavati
August 2013
Info Credits: Lions of Timbavati (FB)
*This image is copyright of its original author
Thats Skorro on the picture, that means that he had an brother and that they where born in Skorro pride afterall.. Also as we taught, they prob where briefly dominant over Birmingham pride around 2014, maybe his brother got killed by Avoca/Giraffes??
Who would be dominant males of Skorro pride around 2009 when they where prob born?
Old Birmingham males or old Skybeds right?
Old Birminghams would male sense, that would explain similarity in looks between Bboys and young Skorro and now his sons Mbiris and Nharus..
But also on this picture Skorro looks like a Skybeds a bit..
Very interesting info, i always taught that Skorro was unknown male who showed up with Sizanani in 2015, but it seems that he has a lot of history before in that area..
(12-11-2020, 08:18 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote: Focus & Intent...
One of the 2 Skorro males on the trot, chasing after the Birmingham pride at Ngala Private Game Reserve
Photo credit: Dylan Davies
Timbavati
August 2013
Info Credits: Lions of Timbavati (FB)
*This image is copyright of its original author
Thats Skorro on the picture, that means that he had an brother and that they where born in Skorro pride afterall.. Also as we taught, they prob where briefly dominant over Birmingham pride around 2014, maybe his brother got killed by Avoca/Giraffes??
Who would be dominant males of Skorro pride around 2009 when they where prob born?
Old Birmingham males or old Skybeds right?
Old Birminghams would male sense, that would explain similarity in looks between Bboys and young Skorro and now his sons Mbiris and Nharus..
But also on this picture Skorro looks like a Skybeds a bit..
Very interesting info, i always taught that Skorro was unknown male who showed up with Sizanani in 2015, but it seems that he has a lot of history before in that area..
That's a cool picture.
Lions of Timbavati FB page posted more images of both Skorro males together on Ngala.
Do you know how the Old Birmingham males took over the Birmingham pride from Skybeds? I’ve never ready any history on that.
The Skybed> Birmingham lineage have such distinct features, just like the Old Ross>Giraffes> Avoca have a very distinct look. Two of the most successful bloodlines in area.
(12-11-2020, 08:53 PM)Gijima Wrote: Do you know how the Old Birmingham males took over the Birmingham pride from Skybeds? I’ve never ready any history on that.
The Skybed> Birmingham lineage have such distinct features, just like the Old Ross>Giraffes> Avoca have a very distinct look. Two of the most successful bloodlines in area.
No i dont know, its hard to find any info about that area from the past..
What a fantastic old photo of Skorro the Thanda impi male
One of the two Skorro males back on Ngala Private Game Reserve
Photo credit: Nathalie Fortier
Ngala
September 2012
Info Credits: Lions of Timbavati (FB)
