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Lions and Tigers in India

Rage2277 Offline
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#91
( This post was last modified: 11-16-2018, 04:18 PM by Rage2277 )

i think tigers can survive in grassland, scrubland & desert habitats just as well as lions..anywhere lions can survive tigers can and vice versa if there is suitable prey they should do fine @Rishi 
"ssshhh...listen to the rain"...
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India Rishi Offline
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#92
( This post was last modified: 11-16-2018, 09:57 PM by Rishi )

(11-16-2018, 04:17 PM)Rage2277 Wrote: i think tigers can survive in grassland, scrubland & desert habitats just as well as lions..anywhere lions can survive tigers can and vice versa if there is suitable prey they should do fine @Rishi 

Given how Caspian tigers habitat was fragmented & limited selectively to riverine valleys, swamps, mountain ranges etc. i severely doubt that. 
Indian tigers didn't make it beyond the western thorn forests either, Ranthambore's tigers aren't even moving into Kailadevi Sanctuary because it's not forested enough ...you should be able to find them in my last post.

Once all of IndoGangetic floodplain looked like Kaziranga & 4000 years of deciphered literature in North India were all lion lion lion lion... & exactly opposite in the tribal culture of Central Indian forests, who barely registered them. (Wrote about it a few posts ago, so not dragging it either.)

Central India, but they occupied the similarly vegetated parts of Central Asia.

*This image is copyright of its original author

On top of they had to compete with each other in the past!
Although they did coexist in bushy scrubs (West) & elephant grass (North), at parts of their ranges, it's only availability of cover in those areas that let tigers hold ground against lions. Whereas lions couldn't really penetrate into the tiger territory.

For example, the following image is less than half the pride, that has one more adult male & several females somewhere else... And that's in Gir, where larger prides break up due to prey size & density, unlike up north with grasslands teeming with buffalos, nilgai, sambars & swamp deers back in the days.

*This image is copyright of its original author

But it's quite easy to survive for tigers in forested hills or dense tall grasslands of valleys. As long as you avoided the main unit & they couldn't effectively oust you but your presence remain a constant threat. You manage to take out one of the pride males & the whole pride might scatter.  People will write songs about them, but you'll outlive them after a royal hunt.

However, in open country tiger's survival chances seem very bleak, the moment lions get on the stage. You'd get pushed around like nomadic lion or smaller prides are. Especially with limited hunting ground & water resources, their presence will be concentrated in certain key areas, which you won't be able to hold on to!
Your 50 kg weight advantage will become a 150kg disadvantage when his brother arrives.

I know it's just a speculative rant, but do think on it practically. I've given it quite some thought & this make the most sense to me.

In case you want to read more about the it:
#387,
"Everything not saved will be lost."

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Finland Shadow Offline
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#93
( This post was last modified: 11-16-2018, 11:57 PM by Shadow )

(11-16-2018, 08:59 PM)Rishi Wrote:
(11-16-2018, 04:17 PM)Rage2277 Wrote: i think tigers can survive in grassland, scrubland & desert habitats just as well as lions..anywhere lions can survive tigers can and vice versa if there is suitable prey they should do fine @Rishi 

Given how Caspian tigers habitat was fragmented & limited selectively to riverine valleys, swamps, mountain ranges etc. i severely doubt that. 
Indian tigers didn't make it beyond the western thorn forests either, Ranthambore's tigers aren't even moving into Kailadevi Sanctuary because it's not forested enough ...you should be able to find them in my last post.

Once all of IndoGangetic floodplain looked like Kaziranga & 4000 years of deciphered literature in North India were all lion lion lion lion... & exactly opposite in the tribal culture of Central Indian forests, who barely registered them. (Wrote about it a few posts ago, so not dragging it either.)

Central India, but they occupied the similarly vegetated parts of Central Asia.

*This image is copyright of its original author

On top of they had to compete with each other in the past!
Although they did coexist in bushy scrubs (West) & elephant grass (North), at parts of their ranges, it's only availability of cover in those areas that let tigers hold ground against lions. Whereas lions couldn't really penetrate into the tiger territory.

For example, the following image is less than half the pride, that has one more adult male & several females somewhere else... And that's in Gir, where larger prides break up due to prey size & density, unlike up north with grasslands teeming with buffalos, nilgai, sambars & swamp deers back in the days.

*This image is copyright of its original author

But it's quite easy to survive for tigers in forested hills or dense tall grasslands of valleys. As long as you avoided the main unit & they couldn't effectively oust you but your presence remain a constant threat. You manage to take out one of the pride males & the whole pride might scatter.  People will write songs about them, but you'll outlive them after a royal hunt.

However, in open country tiger's survival chances seem very bleak, the moment lions get on the stage. You'd get pushed around like nomadic lion or smaller prides are. Especially with limited hunting ground & water resources, their presence will be concentrated in certain key areas, which you won't be able to hold on to!
Your 50 kg weight advantage will become a 150kg disadvantage when his brother arrives.

I know it's just a speculative rant, but do think on it practically. I've given it quite some thought & this make the most sense to me.
I think, that people focus too much about predator vs predator hypotheses. There is no problem in Africa between leopards and lions (and of course same in Asia where are tigers and leopards). Some individuals die time to time, but that´s marginal. Tigers have different kind of coloring than lions and it seems to work better on forest and long grass etc. Lion then again has coloring which works better in open terrain. Also hunting in prides mostly helps. It is obvious, that tiger can´t challenge lion pride or it is eliminated quickly, but I am pretty sure, that it isn´t main reason why tigers aren´t hunting in open terrain so much. When thinking conservation of tigers, lions are not so important issue and vice versa. 

How to avoid confrontations with humans and domestic animals and finding areas with enough prey are main issues. If/when tigers and lions meet, they handle those situations just fine, no need for anyone to worry about it, those confrontations aren´t threat to either species. Same thing with every animal, key is how to protect wild animals from humans, not from each others :)
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Rage2277 Offline
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#94

(11-16-2018, 08:59 PM)Rishi Wrote:
(11-16-2018, 04:17 PM)Rage2277 Wrote: i think tigers can survive in grassland, scrubland & desert habitats just as well as lions..anywhere lions can survive tigers can and vice versa if there is suitable prey they should do fine @Rishi 

Given how Caspian tigers habitat was fragmented & limited selectively to riverine valleys, swamps, mountain ranges etc. i severely doubt that. 
Indian tigers didn't make it beyond the western thorn forests either, Ranthambore's tigers aren't even moving into Kailadevi Sanctuary because it's not forested enough ...you should be able to find them in my last post.

Once all of IndoGangetic floodplain looked like Kaziranga & 4000 years of deciphered literature in North India were all lion lion lion lion... & exactly opposite in the tribal culture of Central Indian forests, who barely registered them. (Wrote about it a few posts ago, so not dragging it either.)

Central India, but they occupied the similarly vegetated parts of Central Asia.

*This image is copyright of its original author

On top of they had to compete with each other in the past!
Although they did coexist in bushy scrubs (West) & elephant grass (North), at parts of their ranges, it's only availability of cover in those areas that let tigers hold ground against lions. Whereas lions couldn't really penetrate into the tiger territory.

For example, the following image is less than half the pride, that has one more adult male & several females somewhere else... And that's in Gir, where larger prides break up due to prey size & density, unlike up north with grasslands teeming with buffalos, nilgai, sambars & swamp deers back in the days.

*This image is copyright of its original author

But it's quite easy to survive for tigers in forested hills or dense tall grasslands of valleys. As long as you avoided the main unit & they couldn't effectively oust you but your presence remain a constant threat. You manage to take out one of the pride males & the whole pride might scatter.  People will write songs about them, but you'll outlive them after a royal hunt.

However, in open country tiger's survival chances seem very bleak, the moment lions get on the stage. You'd get pushed around like nomadic lion or smaller prides are. Especially with limited hunting ground & water resources, their presence will be concentrated in certain key areas, which you won't be able to hold on to!
Your 50 kg weight advantage will become a 150kg disadvantage when his brother arrives.

I know it's just a speculative rant, but do think on it practically. I've given it quite some thought & this make the most sense to me.

In case you want to read more about the it:
#387,

i agree with you on what their interaction must have been like where they coexisted but i was saying tigers can live in those types of areas and would thrive like lions do..just a matter of there being enough suitable prey for them,heck i can see lions doing well in yellowstone hunting the big herds of bison and elk and btw isn't sultan a dominant male in kailidevi sanctuary he has cubs with a tigress there
"ssshhh...listen to the rain"...
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India Rishi Offline
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#95
( This post was last modified: 11-21-2018, 08:02 AM by Rishi )

(11-16-2018, 09:49 PM)Shadow Wrote: I think, that people focus too much about predator vs predator hypotheses. There is no problem in Africa between leopards and lions. Some individuals die time to time, but that´s marginal...

I don't think you've understood the context. The initally posts on this are in the previous page.

Leopards don't share the same niche, but lions & tigers definitely did have an overlap, both socially & ecologically.
The two species may have been each other's limiting factor in Asia. In nature predators elbow out each other all the time. We are taking about those terms of coexistance.

We know they probably did coexist at places of India...

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author

Quote:Tigers have different kind of coloring than lions and it seems to work better on forest and long grass etc. Lion then again has coloring which works better in open terrain. Also hunting in prides mostly helps. It is obvious, that tiger can´t challenge lion pride or it is eliminated quickly, but I am pretty sure, that it isn´t main reason why tigers aren´t hunting in open terrain so much. 
(@Shadow post edited)
C'mon, that's stuff they write in children's books... the ground reality is quite different. Indian grasslands are not the same as African ones. Tigers blend in them way better that one might think, they intact do most of their hunting in grassland patches.

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author

Same for the lions. The dry forests & scrubs of the west hides the just as good as the tigers, sometimes even better.

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author

Quote:When thinking conservation of tigers, lions are not so important issue and vice versa.

How to avoid confrontations with humans and domestic animals and finding areas with enough prey are main issues. If/when tigers and lions meet, they handle those situations just fine, no need for anyone to worry about it, those confrontations aren´t threat to either species. Same thing with every animal, key is how to protect wild animals from humans, not from each others :)

Not talking about the human or conservation aspect here. Lions have a clear advantage in today's scenario & need to become for India's grassland what tigers are for the forests.
Those too are in the previous page...
"Everything not saved will be lost."

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Finland Shadow Offline
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#96
( This post was last modified: 11-17-2018, 01:37 AM by Shadow )

(11-17-2018, 12:09 AM)Rishi Wrote:
(11-16-2018, 09:49 PM)Shadow Wrote: I think, that people focus too much about predator vs predator hypotheses. There is no problem in Africa between leopards and lions. Some individuals die time to time, but that´s marginal...

I don't think you've understood the context. The initally posts on this are in the previous page.

Leopards don't share the same niche, but lions & tigers definitely did have an overlap, both socially & ecologically.
The two species may have been each other's limiting factor in Asia. In nature predators elbow out each other all the time. We are taking about those terms of coexistance.

We know they probably did coexist at places of India...

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author

Quote:Tigers have different kind of coloring than lions and it seems to work better on forest and long grass etc. Lion then again has coloring which works better in open terrain. Also hunting in prides mostly helps. It is obvious, that tiger can´t challenge lion pride or it is eliminated quickly, but I am pretty sure, that it isn´t main reason why tigers aren´t hunting in open terrain so much. 

C'mon, that's children's books stuff... Indian grasslands are not the same as African ones. Tigers blend in them way better that one might think, they intact do most of their hunting in grassland patches.

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author

Same for the lions. The dry forests & scrubs of the west hides the just as good as the tigers, sometimes even better.

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author

Quote:When thinking conservation of tigers, lions are not so important issue and vice versa.

How to avoid confrontations with humans and domestic animals and finding areas with enough prey are main issues. If/when tigers and lions meet, they handle those situations just fine, no need for anyone to worry about it, those confrontations aren´t threat to either species. Same thing with every animal, key is how to protect wild animals from humans, not from each others :)

Not talking about the human or conservation aspect here. Lions have a clear advantage in today's scenario & need to become for India's grassland what tigers are for the forests.
Those too are in the previous page...
I commented somewhat quickly and didn´t look so closely. Just... should I say shaking a little bit, because so many times these discussions go to predator vs predator kind of discussions and that is quite minor thing after all when we are looking situations with these animals. These animals have co-existed in Asia and hopefully do that again. Do they limit each others, why not in some level, but still that is quite natural, when one is adapted mostly to open areas and another to covered terrain.

Coloring is children´s book stuff, but so are most discussions about these tiger-lion discussions anyway. What comes to grass, it is not so much about color of grass, but how tall it is. Children´s book stuff too :) Anyway it is natural, that some territories are taken mostly by some species, but when talking about co-existence of these species, it is quite hard to find anything other really relevant, than human interference. If and hopefully when these species meet again in wildlife, there can be some fights, but it is what it is. Both animals are more than capable to kill each others, no matter if it is 1-1 or pride against 1. Of course when there is pride of lions, tiger has no other chance to survive, but flee.

Maybe I have just seen too many threads like "tiger vs lion" and am a little bit allergic to see those, that I can admit :) But when there are limited areas to use for national parks etc. I hope, that in India there could be found space so, that lions and tigers could co-exist at least in some parts as those have been there in the past.
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India Sanju Offline
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#97
( This post was last modified: 01-18-2019, 07:14 AM by Rishi )


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United States smedz Offline
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I'd love to see a National park with both Lions and tigers. As long as there is enough prey and has both forest and grassland, they should be able to coexist peacefully most of the time.
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India Sanju Offline
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( This post was last modified: 01-30-2019, 09:11 PM by Sanju )

(01-30-2019, 06:00 AM)smedz Wrote: I'd love to see a National park with both Lions and tigers. As long as there is enough prey and has both forest and grassland, they should be able to coexist peacefully most of the time.
@smedz
crazily agreed!!!! Even they have less prey and suitable vegetation, they will migrate to suitable areas in which they find comfortable with their necessities. They are very intelligent and avoid killing themselves in unnecessary fights with similar sized predators of different kind in the wild.

There are territories between Lions.
There are territories between Tigers..
But, there are no territories between lions and tigers or Tigers and leopards or Leopards and lions or Leopards and cheetahs or Leopards and Dholes or Dholes and Sloth bears what ever you name it... because they don't belong to same race so that they cannot communicate, mate and fight in the wild.

For a lion anything other than a lion is another organism or animal categorized as threat/prey/competitor/ none of these I mean the thing which they never encountered before in their life for example, a human sighting for a lion during a safari, so man comes under none of these...

THERE are no friends and enemies like things in the animal world.
Think how humans feel about a chimp as an "animal" even though both are closely related.
When Need turns to Greed, our Extinction happens.
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India Sanju Offline
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( This post was last modified: 02-11-2019, 01:59 PM by Sanju )

In land of Asiatic lions, are tigers making a comeback?
By Deepika S | Updated: Monday, February 11, 2019, 10:40 [IST]

*This image is copyright of its original author

Ahmedabad, Feb 11: More than two decades after a tiger was last sighted in the state, the Royal Bengal Tiger seems to have made a comeback in Gujarat.

A local government school teacher Mahesh Mahera on Sunday claimed he saw a tiger crossing a road near Boriya village in Mahisagar, over 120 kilometres from Ahmedabad, on February 6 and clicked its picture on his mobile phone and shared it with friends on social media platforms.

The photo soon went viral and alerted the state's forest department on the unlikely presence of a tiger in the area.

Quote:Tigers were found in abundance in Gujarat from Valsad to Banaskantha till the 1950s, but they completely vanished from the state by 1997.


*This image is copyright of its original author

Valsad

*This image is copyright of its original author

Banaskantha

Hunt on to nab the big cat
Acting on Mahera's claims, the forest department set up two camera traps and deployed staff to confirm the big cat's presence, a senior official said.

"The photo of the tiger has gone viral and we can't yet say if it is fake. Since a citizen has claimed this, we have begun scanning the area. We have placed two camera traps and the number will be increased," Principal Chief Conservator of Forest (Wildlife) Akshay Saxena said.

Also Read | Rare male tiger kills prospective mate in first meeting at London Zoo [https://www.oneindia.com/international/rare-male-tiger-kills-prospective-mate-in-first-meeting-at-londdon-zoo-2849317.html]

"Our staff is trying to locate pug marks and scat (excreta). There is no evidence yet of the tiger in the area," he added.


Quote:"Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh are 100 kilometres away. It is surprising if a big cat arrived here without anyone getting to know. We are trying to check and confirm what direct or indirect evidence there could be," Saxena said.


Mahera claimed he spotted the tiger when he was returning from school on February 6 evening. "Around 5:15 pm on February 6, I was passing through the area in a four-wheeler when I spotted a tiger emerging from one side of the road and crossing over to the other side. I stopped the car and I clicked its picture. It clearly shows it is a tiger," he said.

Gujarat reluctant to
swap its Lions with Tigers

Observing that Gujarat was the only state in the western region not having any tigers, then the Union Environment Minister Jairam Ramesh had suggested that the state should explore the possibility of reintroducing tigers.

However, Gujarat is averse to the idea of exchanging Asiatic lions with tigers.

Desperate to hold on to its monopoly on the last Asiatic lion habitat in the world, Gujarat has been refusing to share its "pride" with Madhya Pradesh or any other state.

As per the National Tiger Conservation Authority, tigers are found in the wild in 18 Indian states, Gujarat not being among them.

When Gujarat faced flack for 23 Asiatic Lions death
Last year in September Gujarat forest department was at the receiving end of a lot of flak because 23 Asiatic lions had died in the Gir forest owing to a canine distemper virus (CDV) epidemic.

Madhya Pradesh government has been fighting with the Gujarat government for shifting of lions to its state as a second home for the wild cats. However, the order hasn't been implemented by the latter since the judgement was passed in 2013.

Read more at: https://www.oneindia.com/india/in-land-of-asiatic-lions-are-tigers-making-a-comeback-2849684.html
When Need turns to Greed, our Extinction happens.
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India Sanju Offline
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( This post was last modified: 02-11-2019, 02:00 PM by Sanju )

Total Nation gave a chance for the National Animal to make a comeback and now became one of the leading icons of conservation. Can't the Gujarat "govt" give "one and only" one opportunity by putting aside their greed to the former National animal to claim their range back and to survive on earth for a little bit longer like Tiger?
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"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
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"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
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India Sanju Offline
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( This post was last modified: 02-15-2019, 08:20 AM by Sanju )

Yes, @Pckts they may meet in near future very very soon! I said may because, there is only 1 tiger in Gujarat officially (can be more unnoticed and unidentified every moment coz humans are not gods but some locals may witness them sometimes). If more tigers are there not spotted by FD but can be witnessed by locals and FD assume that these uneducated villagers might have confusing tiger with leopard. But most of the times villagers can be correct but forest dept don't believe in them. No one knows how many tigers are in Gujarat.

*This image is copyright of its original author

If we put aside assumptions. Precisely based on evidence and officially found only one tiger present in Gujarat for "now" and this journey from Ratapani to Mahisagar can't be done by every tiger, mostly by males coz the nomad males search for mate and migrate long distances. So its very unlikely that a "tigress" will come from Maha or Raj or MP to the same Gujarat's border forests so that they can breed to start a population. So, only chance is to relocate a tigress from different reserve. or else, Tigers can't meet Lions even though Lions go on expanding their range even further and further in all possible directions..

So in Kuno they may meet after some decades "if" relocation happens or in Gujarat or if a tigress is relocated to the current tiger located Boriya, Lunawada forest area of Mahisagar district division or both. The only chance of tiger to make a "permanent" residence in Gujarat for tigers is to reintroduce this ujjain tiger (actually ratapani tiger) and a tigress in a near by "protected reserve with enough prey base" or to build a new reserve for tigers with sufficient prey base.

Or both Kuno Lion reserve and Gujarat Tiger Reserve can happen to make or facilitate Lion-Tiger meet possible again in the wild if every thing goes right with govt and locals.

Orelse, the chances are slim they both meet in the wild. Remember it should happen as fast as possible coz clock is running for "Gir Lions". Any moment, they can be "pufffff".
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( This post was last modified: 03-18-2019, 09:10 AM by Sanju )

I was long thinking, whether to reply in this aspect or not. Anyway, Here I am.

For some people here...

If a liger was raised by lions, in the wild, could it be a successful member in a pride of lions?


*This image is copyright of its original author

Ketan Pande

Very few people know this.
First of all, there are almost 1/1000000 chances (almost impossible) of Liger getting born in wild? And there is an amazing reason behind it, and it will make you respect nature more.

Well, many people don’t know that in India, at the Gir Forest, a wild tiger was spotted, making it the only place (state) in the world where tiger, lion and leopard co-exist for some time.

*This image is copyright of its original author

So,

If a young lion in Gir forest who is abandoned by pride, encounters and lives with a tigress, and everything goes smooth between them, will they mate, and will liger be born?

The answer is simple,
Quote: Wrote:NOOOOOOO!!

And that’s where Mother Nature comes into the picture. Both of them belongs to different lineages in Panthera. Lions don't even breed with Leopards who are the closest living relatives to them.

If lion, tiger could breed when they coexisted in the past, then seeing Leopon and Lipard is common in Africa or Gir as Leopard is the closest relative to Lion.

Very few people know that there are 7 Barriers of Nature that prevent "interspecies" crossing.

So here are these 7 Barriers or "Unconditional Instincts" of nature which will "only" promote species to breed with themselves in the wild: (An man won't like to **** a chimp even they are closely related species, even becomes picky to chose mate in his own race). Every species has their own sexual dimorphism and their own methods of choosing mates in their own species. Some have special adaptations and rituals for that.

1. Behaviour barrier

Both animals have different behaviour, while one prefers solitary life and other prefers living in pride. This mismatch of behaviour will reduce the mating to a greater extent.

2. Mating Barrier

Suppose, an exception occurs, and both tigress and lion become friends. But, a sexual ritual mismatch will not make both of them breed. The possibility will be reduced,

3. Sex-organs Barrier:

Still, an exception occurs and both them think of mating with each other, then sex-organs mismatch will avoid the successful breeding.

4. Biological Barrier:

Now, if a case where both tigress and lion surpass above barriers and mate. Then the semen will not match with ovaries and chromosomal recombination abnormalities occurrence is high, sometimes chromosome number doesn't match. Thus, seizing the successful breeding.

5. Development Barrier:

If all the above barriers are somehow crossed, then the development of fetus will not take place.

6. Misidentification Barrier:

Still, a fetus comes into the picture, then the mother body will not be able to identify the fetus, as it is abnormal. Thus, mothers body will not provide nutrition to the fetus and it will die.’

7. Communication Barrier:

Both are different species, and have quite different Vocalizations/Body language and Scent or Odour which prevents inter-species communication or territorial behavior.

8. Immunity barrier:

Suppose in the extremely rare situation somehow a liger is born, then the body will be confused as it will not complete of any of the parents. Thus, it will have low immunity, and it will die at a young age due to aberrations in genetic or somatically in morphology or physiology. And, if a liger still reaches adulthood, then it will be sexually inactive (sterile) as it will have different penis and semen. Thus, the offspring of liger will never be born and bloodline of hybrid ends.

P.S. These are all for wild animals, don't compare this with Captive Animal Hybrids or Breeding.

And let me tell you,

In wild, it’s next to impossible to cross top 3 barriers. Thus, liger was/will never be born, so it’s unnecessary to think about its interaction with the lion pride.

The Liger that you see in captivity is made successful via genetic recombination and other manipulations to make it successful for various benefits in attracting tourist attention.

So for now, let’s assume that it's impossible.

But nature has always surprised us, so one day we might see an exception and that’s why I said at the start that there are 1/1000000 chances of its success.

Even it happened, the offspring won't survive long...

This is not only for these two animals. These are basic and fundamental principles for any living organism or species to be like a species not hybrid, if all animals can hybridize then no animal looks same as other, every animal will be unique and can't reproduce after and it will be the end of life on earth but that didn't happen. Our world is natural world with "species" not Pokemon world with Pokemons and Hybrids.

Dawin's finches for example, considering Geospiza genus, all species in the genus are endemic to the Galápagos Islands. Together with related genera, they are collectively known as Darwin's finches.

There are extant 9 SPECIES. Geospiza conirostris, Geospiza difficilis, Geospiza septentrionalis, Geospiza acutirostris, Geospiza fortis, Geospiza fuliginosa, Geospiza magnirostris, Geospiza scandens and Geospiza propinqua. All are endemic and live in Galápagos Islands. But there are no hybrids, they don't interbreed.


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When Need turns to Greed, our Extinction happens.
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