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France vizions Offline
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#61

(06-29-2014, 08:38 PM)Jubatus Wrote:
(06-29-2014, 04:31 AM)'Apollo' Wrote:
(06-27-2014, 05:39 AM)'Jubatus' Wrote:




Here is a little video of the Mapogo coalition, it shows every individual lion and names it, and also some photos from their rise till their end! 
 


 



So as per the info

Makhulu October 1998-2013
Dreadlocks March 2001-2010
Rasta January 2001-July 9, 2010
Pretty Boy January 2001-2012
Kinky Tail 2002-June 8, 2010
Mr. T 2002-March 16, 2012


Kinky Tail --> Killed by Majingilane males
Dreadlocks --> Killed by Majingilane males
Mr. T --> killed by Selati males

Can you tell me how did Pretty Boy, Rasta and Makhulu died ?
 

 


Hi @Apollo 

Rasta Dissapeared, i Don`t know how he died, unfourtunetly, he was belived to have been killed by a croc in 2007, but it was all just a lie, but how he really died i don`t know.. Makhulu died beceause of his old age last year, he was a 15 year old male lion, and at such an old age he probably had trouble fending for himself... Pretty boy most likely for the same reason, I`m not quite sure if there is more to the story than that... 

Hope it helps :)
 


Hello there.
 
You got confuse with Rasta and Dreadlocks.

Rasta was Pretty Boy's twins and got killed at the mysterious fight at elephant plains the 9 july 2010. We dont know what happened that night, but there was a fight between the Majingilane and the two twins (Rasta and Pretty Boy). Rasta was never seen again, and Pretty Boy reappeared one or two weeks later with a bent spine. Rasta's body was never found.
The other mapogos (Makhulu, Dreadlocks, Mr.T) weren't involved in this fight since they had no signs of battle the days afterwards.

Dreadlocks was the dominant mapogo when Makhulu was becoming to get old (end2008-2009 at 10 years old).  Sadly, he mysteriously disappeared in december 2010 and was never seen again. The general consensus is that he was poached since a leopard disappeared at the same time, and an other lionness got caught in a trap also.

And for Makhulu and Pretty boy, they became nomad after Mr.T's death and probably had problems feeding for themselves. Makhulu was 14 years old at that time, and Pretty Boy despite being younger (12) wasn't in his best shape! The poor buddy survived two 1v4 fight, and didn't have an easy life.

If you have any questions about the mapogos, i could try to answer them.
 
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Norway Pantherinae Offline
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#62

 @vizions no one knows what really happend to Rasta probably killed by the majingilane coalition,

but when it comes to the most dominant, people doesen't really know who was the most dominant! some will say kinky tail and others Mr.T and makhulu. but for sure it's highly debated who was the dominant male! but Makhulu dominated at first because of age and experience advantage, but later both dreadlooks, kinky and Mr.T dominated him. and I have talked and seartch for this information for years! it's a very interesting coallition! The thing we can say is all dominated eachother at different times! But for sure kinky and Mr T was the most aggressive one's!
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France vizions Offline
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#63
( This post was last modified: 07-30-2014, 10:36 PM by vizions )

Pantherinae[/size]

Mr.T and Kinky Tail were no where from dominant compared to the others. They were the two youngest and the two smallest also. When the other four were alive and in shape, they didn't get access to any lionness. That's the reason thoses 2 decided to split from the others, and take pride in the east for themselves. They became the Mlowathi Males for 2 years, before KT was killed and Mr.T rejoined his 4 brothers.  KT never dominate Makhulu.
Then after the disparition of Dreadlocks,Rasta and KT, Mr.T started to become dominant toward the 2 other old Mapogos.
But i agree with you that T and KT were the most agressive one's !

For the other 4, the most dominant ones were Makhulu in first and in second Dreadlocks. Thoses 2 sired most ot the mapogos cubs.  Dreadlocks probably became the most dominant around 2009 when he was in prime(8years) and Makhulu older(11years). Rasta was #3 and Pretty Boy #4 for the most part.
 

 

 
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United States Pckts Offline
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#64

Awesome info Vizions. Nice to see some new information here.

Vizions,
what do you think about this?

 It was almost celebrated when they were finally defeated becasue of the hope of better fathers helping spread new lion genes.
Oh how the excitement of the Mapogo arrival was overrated, based on the social structure outcome to the population dynamics of the lions in the Sabi Sand Wildtuin. Yes they provided formidable viewing and photographic opportunities, undoubtedly serving as a huge attraction to a multitude of guests wishing to view and photograph lions of such infamy, but from a species survival point of view, they have done unmentionable damage to the breeding and survival ecology of the lion species in the Sabi Sand Wildtuin, thereby affecting the total African lion population.
Of the original 62 Lions that were present in the Western Sector when they arrived, there are now only 3 origionals left, all belonging to the Ximungwe pride. The remaining lions are, 1 Lioness from the Ximungwe pride that joined from the Tsalala Pride, 4 Youngsters from these females (total – 8) and 2 Ottawa lionesses, both being Mapogo offspring. The Ottawa pride have 4 small cubs( total – 8 ), which in all likelihood will be killed by the Southern Males (to force the females into early oestrous), as will the Ximungwe pride youngsters we suspect.
Ximungwe Pride – 6 Years and not a single cub ( nil – zero – 0 ) has yet to be raised to maturity. That is a shocking statistic when it comes to the fathering and protection abilities of the territorial coalition, the Mapogo. They were more absorbed with their internal conflicts and dominance status within the coalition that they would kill each other’s cubs, the main culprit co-incidentally being the one killed today, Mr.T.
http://blog.londolozi.com/2012/03/lion-w...of-an-era/


Where they so bothered with eachothers status that they really wouldn't allow a single cub to make it till adulthood?
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France vizions Offline
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#65

It's not a secret that the Mapogos weren't the best father. Their high levels aggression killed off significant amounts of their cubs during inter-coalition disputes.
To raise cubs to maturity (~3 years), you need stability. Internal conflicts and lion warfare doesn't bring it.

Makhulu, PB, Rasta and Dreadlocks controlled the Ximungwe pride, the Othawa pride and the Tsalala pride from 2007 to 2012 approximately. Here's some accounts about cubs being killed. In addition to that, you can add the other type of deaths (hyenas, leopard, buffalo, starvation...). They are probably a lot more accounts, but here are the ones that got reported and that i remember !

1) In 2007, the 5 youngest Mapogos killed the oldest Mapogo's (Makhulu) cubs belonging to the Othawa lionesses.
2) In 2010, KT was killed and Mr.T was forced to run back to his brothers.  A number of cubs had been born into the Ximungwe pride since the takeover but as Mr.T had not been with the other coalition members at the time he did not recognize the cubs as family and instinctively began to wipe them out.
3) The 2011-2012 cubs were killed when the Selatis coalition take over in mars 2012.


KT and T controlled the Styx tribe and the Eyrefiel/Sparta pride from 2009 to 2010 but lost both prides to the Majingilane coalition. All their cubs were killed during this takeover.
 
That's the sad part about the Mapogos. They were such an amazing coalition, but they failed to bring stability to the tribes they controlled. 
 
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United States Pckts Offline
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#66
( This post was last modified: 07-31-2014, 01:13 AM by Pckts )

Just shows the importance of not only a dominate coalition but a dominate member of the coalition.
If the position is up for grabs it seems that other members wont hesitate to kill off "rivals" cubs even from the same coalition.

It also shows the importance of having not too many members because of the jealously that happens when some are not allowed to mate with the females.
I wonder what is the largest coalition size to date?
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Norway Pantherinae Offline
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#67

The majingilane coallition also killed alot of the mapogo cubs! If I'm not wrong the salatis and majingilane has almost spilt the old mapogo territory, with majingilane dominating and forceing the Salatis away now! 

It was only in the start that KT and Mr.T was the least dominate! I have heard! I have asked so many in the sabi sands and read so many documents. Who says different things, but there are clips of mrT dominating PB and Makhulu. But thats when makhulu is young! But if you're sure in you're case then You're probably right! Can I Ask where you have found this information? Nice to have you here @vizions
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France vizions Offline
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#68
( This post was last modified: 07-31-2014, 06:32 AM by vizions )

You are right about the Majingilane. They chased off the Selatis about 2-3 months ago now and killed one of their members. The 2 Selatis survivor now live as nomad between the Majingilane territory and the Matimbas territory (5 males lions).
Majingilane coalition is one of the best working coalition. They always stick together and always outnumber their opponnent. They now hold the whole former Mapogo territory and are even pushing down to the south now towards the Southern pride.

Here's a map:

 
*This image is copyright of its original author


The map is from 2012, somes changes happened since: the KNP lions got chased off by the Sand river males (3). The Majin conquered the Selatis's territory, and the Matimbas are down to 5.

I guess you are talking about this video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8Wa4I6MKzA
Mr.T first chased off Makhulu who clearly wasn't interested in fighting, and then fought with Pretty Boy. Mr.T has a slight advantage in the fight, even tho it's look like a draw but PB wasn't known to be the best "fighter" of the Mapogos. Then again, like you said in your previous post, dominance is a day by day thing and can change quickly (in case of the mapogos colaition).

I read lot of accounts about the lions of the Sabi sand ! I try to follow all the site/rangers reports/facebook pages to get a lot of information since i just love the Sabi Sands lions pride. The Mapogos hooked me into it!

 

 
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Norway Pantherinae Offline
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#69

@vizions 

thanks for the info! Yeah majingilane has always impressed me! Nice looking males aswell, all four together atleast close by eachother the golden maned male is the least dominat and keeps a little distance I have heard! The Salati coalition was never the same as the mapogo or majingilane lions. I have never been that interested in them as I have been with the two other coallitions! 

In that fight mr.T had full control on PB. He knew exactly what he did! Maybe it comes form the extreame fighting experience he has! Makhulu was as you said defensive and did not wanna fight he looks old here aswell! 

Yeah I also was hoocked by the mighty mapogo coallition esspecially Knicky Tail and MR.T they had such interesting personality! Yeah the same as me I have seen so many people writing different things when it comes to the most dominant members! But very often Knicky tail was the dominant of him and Mr.T. But as with all lion coallition they all can dominate just look at the notch boy's aswell Ron will often dominate so will notch. It's very interesting! 

Do you know anyone who has an weight estimate on Makhulu? many described him as the biggest lion they had seen in the Sabi Sands, I have herd as much as 240 kg. 




 
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Norway Pantherinae Offline
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#70

@vizions 

have any idea who this male is? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yIg_gCMLhf0 
Sure looks impressive as hell! Well fed but looks like a large skull. 
 
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Sri Lanka Apollo Offline
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#71
( This post was last modified: 07-31-2014, 08:57 AM by Apollo )

(07-31-2014, 08:09 AM)'Pantherinae' Wrote: @vizions 

have any idea who this male is? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yIg_gCMLhf0 
Sure looks impressive as hell! Well fed but looks like a large skull. 
 

 



Nice looking male.
 
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Norway Pantherinae Offline
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#72

Quote:
*This image is copyright of its original author
'Pckts' pid='3690' dateline='1406748165'
Just shows the importance of not only a dominate coalition but a dominate member of the coalition.
If the position is up for grabs it seems that other members wont hesitate to kill off "rivals" cubs even from the same coalition.

It also shows the importance of having not too many members because of the jealously that happens when some are not allowed to mate with the females.
I wonder what is the largest coalition size to date?
 

I know a very large coalition called the skybed. It had 9 members at one point don't know how many there's left now! Here's 8 of them 




 
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France vizions Offline
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#73
( This post was last modified: 07-31-2014, 05:31 PM by vizions )

As you said Makhulu, in his prime, is known to be the biggest lion of the Sabi sands. I don't think he was ever weighted so we will never know, but 240 kg sounds like the maximum for me. 225-230kg should be my guess.

Here's the result of a study in the KNP:
"An extensive study by Butch Smuts in the adjoining Kruger National Park has given us accurate weights; he found that female lions average 125kg, and males 180kg. The largest male lion that he recorded weighed in at 240kg."

For the video, that's probably Freddy of the KNP coalition(2 males). They were called the Kruger males. They were know to be BIG males, and rangers even told that they were bigger than the Majingilane.

"The two enormous Kruger males display a Flehmen grimace."
http://blog.londolozi.com/2012/07/a-sigh...uth-pride/ 


*This image is copyright of its original author


The most dominant of the coalition, Limper, disappeared around july 2012. He had fights with the two mapogos (Makhulu and PB) but it was probably the Majingilanes who killed him.
Freddy was pushed out of the Southern tribe at the start of 2013 by the Sand river males(3).

 
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Norway Pantherinae Offline
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#74


*This image is copyright of its original author

Yeah I know he was never weighed, I don't think Krüger would dart lions in popular tourist zone's! 
The  here is the studies on lions in Krüger. 



thanks that looks like him! Thank you! He was very good looking! 
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Guatemala GuateGojira Offline
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#75

(07-31-2014, 06:24 PM)'Pantherinae' Wrote:
*This image is copyright of its original author

Yeah I know he was never weighed, I don't think Krüger would dart lions in popular tourist zone's! 
The  here is the studies on lions in Krüger. 



thanks that looks like him! Thank you! He was very good looking! 

 
A few remarks here:
 
1. The real sample was of 14 males, not only 4. This document only copy-paste the data from Nowell & Jackson (1996) and it do it wrong, here is the original source:
 
*This image is copyright of its original author


2. That study was the one of 1976, but in 1980 Smuts published another document with a larger sample and a different average figure, here it is:
 
*This image is copyright of its original author

3. The heaviest male lion recorded in South Africa, by scientists was a male of 225 kg, empty belly but full of fat. Check the previous image.
 
4. The heaviest male from hunting records (apart from the 313 kg giant for Guinness), was a male of 245 kg, which was empty belly. Here is the source:
 

*This image is copyright of its original author

Greetings.
 
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