There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
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Jaguars of Brazil - Dynamics,Lifestyle,Datas,Studies,Reports

Brazil Dark Jaguar Offline
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(04-02-2021, 07:40 AM)Balam Wrote: @Dark Jaguar Recreio was such an interesting male, too bad we don't have much footage of him. I confused him initially on that video with Maxime some timee back, though I'm sure he was bigger.

Indeed he was, this video of Recreio is from 2010, too bad we won't get any fresh news of him, but footage wise I think we still can find some videos or pics of him around the internet if we're lucky enough, we just gotta search by the time he was shown the most, in case of Recreio 2010-2011 but still it won't be an easy task. yeah Jopoi looks like him and some rosettes of both looks the same and are placed in almost the same parts of the body however they're placed in slightly different areas, there's one spot on top of the body of both that looks almost the same haha.

I still laugh with that name though and I still wonder who named him like that, here it means ''break time for children at school to have snacks and play'' its called ''Recreio'', maybe he was first spotted by some kid near the Jofre Velho School at ''Recreio time'' lol.


Sizewise he was probably bigger at younger age just like Fantasma who I think was larger on his prime, shame we only saw him at old age which was still pretty big but imagine him on his prime.

Anyways Speaking of sizes I was wondering when the captures and recaptures of jaguars overall will start.
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Balam Offline
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(04-02-2021, 08:29 AM)Dark Jaguar Wrote:
(04-02-2021, 07:40 AM)Balam Wrote: @Dark Jaguar Recreio was such an interesting male, too bad we don't have much footage of him. I confused him initially on that video with Maxime some timee back, though I'm sure he was bigger.

Indeed he was, this video of Recreio is from 2010, too bad we won't get any fresh news of him, but footage wise I think we still can find some videos or pics of him around the internet if we're lucky enough, we just gotta search by the time he was shown the most, in case of Recreio 2010-2011 but still it won't be an easy task. yeah Jopoi looks like him and some rosettes of both looks the same and are placed in almost the same parts of the body however they're placed in slightly different areas, there's one spot on top of the body of both that looks almost the same haha.

I still laugh with that name though and I still wonder who named him like that, here it means ''break time for children at school to have snacks and play'' its called ''Recreio'', maybe he was first spotted by some kid near the Jofre Velho School at ''Recreio time'' lol.  


Sizewise he was probably bigger at younger age just like Fantasma who I think was larger on his prime, shame we only saw him at old age which was still pretty big but imagine him on his prime.

Anyways Speaking of sizes I was wondering when the captures and recaptures of jaguars overall will start.


Here's another extremely short clip of Recreio mating, I don't understand why they only take these barely visible videos





I don't know if we'll ever see him back or if he is even alive yet. I know that Tito was seen last year but the end of it in the premises of a Panthera farm though, likely Jofre Velho, so hopefully we'll get footage of him at some point.
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(04-02-2021, 03:03 PM)Balam Wrote:
(04-02-2021, 08:29 AM)Dark Jaguar Wrote:
(04-02-2021, 07:40 AM)Balam Wrote: @Dark Jaguar Recreio was such an interesting male, too bad we don't have much footage of him. I confused him initially on that video with Maxime some timee back, though I'm sure he was bigger.

Indeed he was, this video of Recreio is from 2010, too bad we won't get any fresh news of him, but footage wise I think we still can find some videos or pics of him around the internet if we're lucky enough, we just gotta search by the time he was shown the most, in case of Recreio 2010-2011 but still it won't be an easy task. yeah Jopoi looks like him and some rosettes of both looks the same and are placed in almost the same parts of the body however they're placed in slightly different areas, there's one spot on top of the body of both that looks almost the same haha.

I still laugh with that name though and I still wonder who named him like that, here it means ''break time for children at school to have snacks and play'' its called ''Recreio'', maybe he was first spotted by some kid near the Jofre Velho School at ''Recreio time'' lol.  


Sizewise he was probably bigger at younger age just like Fantasma who I think was larger on his prime, shame we only saw him at old age which was still pretty big but imagine him on his prime.

Anyways Speaking of sizes I was wondering when the captures and recaptures of jaguars overall will start.


Here's another extremely short clip of Recreio mating, I don't understand why they only take these barely visible videos





I don't know if we'll ever see him back or if he is even alive yet. I know that Tito was seen last year but the end of it in the premises of a Panthera farm though, likely Jofre Velho, so hopefully we'll get footage of him at some point.

I don't think we'll see Recreio again, its very unlikely but if he reappears he would look just like Spencer, very very old, but to me he is already gone, you can just compare that video he is chilling with a prime male, the difference in age screams, now you say this about ''maybe you'll never get info of Recreio'' just imagine how I feel about one of the most impressive males I've ever seen, Hector male. I'd have to go back to 2007-2008-2009 to try to get something of Hector, I think he is from the same generation as Recreio, Wilson, Poyi, Lopez... Rafael Hoogesteijn told me back then they could only estimate Hector's size just like Pirata (Mick). When Rafael said about capture and Hector on the same phrase I even thought Hector could be M02 but Rafael said he wasn't captured. At least my thoughts still holds ground on him being larger than those ''mere'' 130 kg.

I think Tito could be seen again since the last time he was seen was last year, if thats the case he could likely appear at least for a last time.

About Recreio's video thats it and I think there must be more of him out there but most of the quality isn't that good for it being 10 yo.


Here's a footage by Helicopter of Poyi male in 2010 (he looks really bulky), likely near a ranch in Porto Jofre, you can also note the footage Quality.


*This image is copyright of its original author



And I agree that its bad these short clips of just a few secs, even the interaction of Recreio with the Giant Otters it seems the conflict was already happening before the cameraman started filming akin to the fight of Mancha-Preta and Colombiano which was a shame start filming only at end, each of these jags behaviors gotta be fully registered and its a shame most gets cut.



Lastly I gotta ask you to keep an eye if Abigail will drop a profile document of Hector, I'm dying to know more about him, if she posts him, let me know, you can even tag me in case you post anything about Hector.
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Balam Offline
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(04-02-2021, 05:12 PM)Dark Jaguar Wrote:
(04-02-2021, 03:03 PM)Balam Wrote:
(04-02-2021, 08:29 AM)Dark Jaguar Wrote:
(04-02-2021, 07:40 AM)Balam Wrote: @Dark Jaguar Recreio was such an interesting male, too bad we don't have much footage of him. I confused him initially on that video with Maxime some timee back, though I'm sure he was bigger.

Indeed he was, this video of Recreio is from 2010, too bad we won't get any fresh news of him, but footage wise I think we still can find some videos or pics of him around the internet if we're lucky enough, we just gotta search by the time he was shown the most, in case of Recreio 2010-2011 but still it won't be an easy task. yeah Jopoi looks like him and some rosettes of both looks the same and are placed in almost the same parts of the body however they're placed in slightly different areas, there's one spot on top of the body of both that looks almost the same haha.

I still laugh with that name though and I still wonder who named him like that, here it means ''break time for children at school to have snacks and play'' its called ''Recreio'', maybe he was first spotted by some kid near the Jofre Velho School at ''Recreio time'' lol.  


Sizewise he was probably bigger at younger age just like Fantasma who I think was larger on his prime, shame we only saw him at old age which was still pretty big but imagine him on his prime.

Anyways Speaking of sizes I was wondering when the captures and recaptures of jaguars overall will start.


Here's another extremely short clip of Recreio mating, I don't understand why they only take these barely visible videos





I don't know if we'll ever see him back or if he is even alive yet. I know that Tito was seen last year but the end of it in the premises of a Panthera farm though, likely Jofre Velho, so hopefully we'll get footage of him at some point.

I don't think we'll see Recreio again, its very unlikely but if he reappears he would look just like Spencer, very very old, but to me he is already gone, you can just compare that video he is chilling with a prime male, the difference in age screams, now you say this about ''maybe you'll never get info of Recreio'' just imagine how I feel about one of the most impressive males I've ever seen, Hector male. I'd have to go back to 2007-2008-2009 to try to get something of Hector, I think he is from the same generation as Recreio, Wilson, Poyi, Lopez... Rafael Hoogesteijn told me back then they could only estimate Hector's size just like Pirata (Mick). When Rafael said about capture and Hector on the same phrase I even thought Hector could be M02 but Rafael said he wasn't captured. At least my thoughts still holds ground on him being larger than those ''mere'' 130 kg.

I think Tito could be seen again since the last time he was seen was last year, if thats the case he could likely appear at least for a last time.

About Recreio's video thats it and I think there must be more of him out there but most of the quality isn't that good for it being 10 yo.


Here's a footage by Helicopter of Poyi male in 2010 (he looks really bulky), likely near a ranch in Porto Jofre, you can also note the footage Quality.


*This image is copyright of its original author



And I agree that its bad these short clips of just a few secs, even the interaction of Recreio with the Giant Otters it seems the conflict was already happening before the cameraman started filming akin to the fight of Mancha-Preta and Colombiano which was a shame start filming only at end, each of these jags behaviors gotta be fully registered and its a shame most gets cut.



Lastly I gotta ask you to keep an eye if Abigail will drop a profile document of Hector, I'm dying to know more about him, if she posts him, let me know, you can even tag me in case you post anything about Hector.

What size did Rafael estimate Hector at? IMO he was 130-135 kg, Mick was likely around that size too, although Mick was not too particularly stocky, just very barrel-shaped through his mind section. Poyi was a tank, he reminds me of M15 or Andy with his build.

About Hector's profile, the only thing she has of him is that photo I shared with you before, but you can always DM her to see if she has more info. The last time we were trying to ID the male I last posted from the Cuiba river but didn't have luck, he's not on the guide.

I'm more so curious now about seeing footage from the new generation in the area. Currently everything is flooded and it makes jaguar being very difficult for tourists, but I'm dying to see more Ubirata and Xingu who are the two young males that she described as Edno-sized while not being in their prime.
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(04-02-2021, 07:53 PM)Balam Wrote:
(04-02-2021, 05:12 PM)Dark Jaguar Wrote:
(04-02-2021, 03:03 PM)Balam Wrote:
(04-02-2021, 08:29 AM)Dark Jaguar Wrote:
(04-02-2021, 07:40 AM)Balam Wrote: @Dark Jaguar Recreio was such an interesting male, too bad we don't have much footage of him. I confused him initially on that video with Maxime some timee back, though I'm sure he was bigger.

Indeed he was, this video of Recreio is from 2010, too bad we won't get any fresh news of him, but footage wise I think we still can find some videos or pics of him around the internet if we're lucky enough, we just gotta search by the time he was shown the most, in case of Recreio 2010-2011 but still it won't be an easy task. yeah Jopoi looks like him and some rosettes of both looks the same and are placed in almost the same parts of the body however they're placed in slightly different areas, there's one spot on top of the body of both that looks almost the same haha.

I still laugh with that name though and I still wonder who named him like that, here it means ''break time for children at school to have snacks and play'' its called ''Recreio'', maybe he was first spotted by some kid near the Jofre Velho School at ''Recreio time'' lol.  


Sizewise he was probably bigger at younger age just like Fantasma who I think was larger on his prime, shame we only saw him at old age which was still pretty big but imagine him on his prime.

Anyways Speaking of sizes I was wondering when the captures and recaptures of jaguars overall will start.


Here's another extremely short clip of Recreio mating, I don't understand why they only take these barely visible videos





I don't know if we'll ever see him back or if he is even alive yet. I know that Tito was seen last year but the end of it in the premises of a Panthera farm though, likely Jofre Velho, so hopefully we'll get footage of him at some point.

I don't think we'll see Recreio again, its very unlikely but if he reappears he would look just like Spencer, very very old, but to me he is already gone, you can just compare that video he is chilling with a prime male, the difference in age screams, now you say this about ''maybe you'll never get info of Recreio'' just imagine how I feel about one of the most impressive males I've ever seen, Hector male. I'd have to go back to 2007-2008-2009 to try to get something of Hector, I think he is from the same generation as Recreio, Wilson, Poyi, Lopez... Rafael Hoogesteijn told me back then they could only estimate Hector's size just like Pirata (Mick). When Rafael said about capture and Hector on the same phrase I even thought Hector could be M02 but Rafael said he wasn't captured. At least my thoughts still holds ground on him being larger than those ''mere'' 130 kg.

I think Tito could be seen again since the last time he was seen was last year, if thats the case he could likely appear at least for a last time.

About Recreio's video thats it and I think there must be more of him out there but most of the quality isn't that good for it being 10 yo.


Here's a footage by Helicopter of Poyi male in 2010 (he looks really bulky), likely near a ranch in Porto Jofre, you can also note the footage Quality.


*This image is copyright of its original author



And I agree that its bad these short clips of just a few secs, even the interaction of Recreio with the Giant Otters it seems the conflict was already happening before the cameraman started filming akin to the fight of Mancha-Preta and Colombiano which was a shame start filming only at end, each of these jags behaviors gotta be fully registered and its a shame most gets cut.



Lastly I gotta ask you to keep an eye if Abigail will drop a profile document of Hector, I'm dying to know more about him, if she posts him, let me know, you can even tag me in case you post anything about Hector.

What size did Rafael estimate Hector at? IMO he was 130-135 kg, Mick was likely around that size too, although Mick was not too particularly stocky, just very barrel-shaped through his mind section. Poyi was a tank, he reminds me of M15 or Andy with his build.

About Hector's profile, the only thing she has of him is that photo I shared with you before, but you can always DM her to see if she has more info. The last time we were trying to ID the male I last posted from the Cuiba river but didn't have luck, he's not on the guide.

I'm more so curious now about seeing footage from the new generation in the area. Currently everything is flooded and it makes jaguar being very difficult for tourists, but I'm dying to see more Ubirata and Xingu who are the two young males that she described as Edno-sized while not being in their prime.

No, Rafael didn't give his estimation but when he sent me a pic he took of Pirata he said Pirata could be 140 kg but I think Hector could be 140 kg too IMO.



Yes, you read my mind, Poyi reminded me alot of Guru (M15) as well as Wilson.



You mentioned about ''flooded'' I just remembered what the North american researcher Douglas Bryan Trent who studies Pantanal for over 30 years mentioned in an interview of TV.

''One thing that I see here is very different is the fact of the flood season and dry season is that during flooded season big part of the jaguars leave the region but when the dry season returns the jaguars return and what my research shows is that big part of them are new, different jaguars, each year there's different jaguars and I don't see a jaguar of last year this year for example.''

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoDZw1xvHao

So there may appear new jaguars when the dry season returns.



He ID jaguars too in the North Pantanal from Cáceres to Pacu Gordo and he even ID Giant otters which their neck spots are always unique and he registered group sex of giant otters too.


*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author




Cáceres is located towards west Poconé north Pantanal separated by the Paraguay river.  


In the moment the studies coordinated by Douglas got 81 jaguars and 48 giant otters IDed.

Like in Porto Jofre and Mamirauá reserve, Cáceres also got high density of jaguars.


Jags Identified by Douglas.


*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author








Here's a pregnant female from that area recently filmed by the TV team accompanied by Douglas on boat, she seems gasping, looks like she's gonna give birth at any time.


*This image is copyright of its original author






Cáceres also covers the Ecological Station of Taiamã area where Jairzão, Anderson Silva, Caiman, Picolé, Selema and other jaguars that were captured by CENAP/ICMBio live.

Cáceres is also the area where 2 jaguar attacks on humans happened I posted here the cases on scientific papers sometime ago including the one of the skull bite to its victim.


*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author





I am looking forward about the new individuals that shall appear when the dry season returns, I just wish I knew more about individuals from Cárceres.



About these new Jaguars they seem promising and Xando & Bororo too.

I also wanna see more of Ubiratã and Rabinowitz male.


Speaking of new generation there's also Joujou male from Serra do Amolar - Central Pantanal, I am trying to keep my eyes on him, he was released back in the wild weighing 87 kg and on his first monitoring week he manage to predate on a capybara. I wanna gather much more in Central Pantanal of Serra do Amola so Joujou's recapture is very likely as Gediendson left his collar a bit loose as he'll pack mass so the collar wouldn't drop off. The other area of Central I wanna gather more is of course Acurizal in Central Pantanal which was one of the areas where Dr Crawshaw and Dr Schaller studied jaguars in Pantanal.
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JAGUAR CONSERVATION IN BRAZIL  

https://www.tepagency.com/jaguar-conservation-in-brazil

Credits of all photos: David Higgs/TEPA


Note: The author mentioned the names of all jaguars in this article except the captured male on the pick up truck so I managed to ID him and I added his name between parentheses, other than that the rest is all the author's words.




Fera, a 3½-yr-old female jaguar (one of twins rescued as orphans and re-wilded by the Onçafari Project at the Caiman Ecological Refuge in Brazil’s Pantanal) bursts onto a grassy bank after swimming across a lagoon whilst stalking a group of capybara (a giant South American relative of the guinea pig).


*This image is copyright of its original author



Shadowy, shy and mysterious, scientists consider the South American jaguar the ‘Ninja’ of the world’s 3 largest big cats species. Its secretive nature has enabled it to survive despite almost 300 years of persecution and conflict with cattle and livestock farmers.

During the last 50 years, as destruction and fragmentation has reduced its natural habitat by more than 50%, jaguar numbers have shrunk over its former historic range, that once extended from the southern United States to Argentina.

Because of its elusive nature no-one currently has reliable population data. Expert estimates vary from as many as 30,000 to less than 16,000.




Nusa (left), a formidable female jaguar rests beside a lagoon with her 10-month-old cub, Juju, in the cool of an overhanging bank.


*This image is copyright of its original author




A delighted 10-month-old jaguar cub, plunges into a lagoon with her prize, a coati (a relative of the raccoon). Her mother has caught it specially and given it to her cub to practice her hunting skills.


*This image is copyright of its original author






A territorial dispute between two female jaguars, the formidable Nusa (standing) and Isa. Nusa has a 10-month old cub to feed and Isa has tried to steal her kill. Nusa gives a masterclass in total dominance, dancing around Isa without landing a single blow but lets her know in no uncertain terms what might happen if Isa dares make the same mistake again. At times she broke off from the conflict to grab and rip down branches from overhead, possibly to demonstrate her superior strength or a sign of her anger and frustration.


*This image is copyright of its original author



In a ‘world first’ Project Onçafari has applied wildlife ‘habituation’ techniques, first pioneered to great effect with big cats in Africa, so that Caiman's jaguars are no longer disturbed or afraid of tourist vehicles.






Vet, Joares May Jr, and Onçafari field biologist Carlos Fragoso transport sedated a 107 kg male jaguar ( Apache ) on the tailgate of a pickup truck to a safe location to attach a VHF collar for tracking and gather bio-data for further studies.


*This image is copyright of its original author






Onçafari Project coordinator, Lilian Rampim and field biologist Leonardo (Léo) Sartorello measure the massive canines of a 107 kg male jaguar ( Apache ). Pound for pound jaguars have the greatest bite force of any big cat.


*This image is copyright of its original author





Nusa (right), and a 4½-year-old female jaguar, with her 10 month-old cub, Juju. Tonight she has killed a young Nelore bull. Nusa kills quickly and efficiently, biting through the back of the skull or neck vertebrae.


*This image is copyright of its original author





Cachaço, a 4-year-old male, glares at the camera as he reclaims his half-eaten capybara kill.


*This image is copyright of its original author





At Caiman Ecological Refuge a large female capybara walks along the lagoon shore totally unaware that a few metres away a female jaguar is watching her every move and ready to pounce. The jaguar’s mottled coat makes her almost invisible against a background of dried leaves.


*This image is copyright of its original author





At Caiman Ecological Refuge  a Nelore bull comes to drink from a pool, unaware that a jaguar is lurking metres away in a roadside culvert. On Estância Caiman, a 53,000ha ranch running around 35,000 head of cattle in Brazil’s Pantanal, jaguars kill more than 200 cows (<0.6%) annually. Once, such predation would have been met with swift reprisal. Since the founding of the Onçafari Project, Caiman is now a beacon for jaguar conservation in the Pantanal, one of the main farming regions of Brazil, demonstrating that tolerance and the potential for wildlife tourism more than compensates for this formidable predator’s penchant for fresh beef.


*This image is copyright of its original author



120kg Brutus, a hulking male jaguar, emerging from a lagoon. Jaguars love water and are superb swimmers. Though Brutus is massive, he is by no means the biggest or toughest cat on the block.  It is believed that the largest jaguars in the world are found in Brazil's Pantanal region.


*This image is copyright of its original author







Brutus, a massive 120kg jaguar, at full charge.  In fights he has lost part of his tail and ear and sports a freshly split lip.


*This image is copyright of its original author
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(03-01-2021, 01:13 AM)Dark Jaguar Wrote: Mick on a Mission.





Mick on Another Mission.

As he leaves the water he quickly lowers his body to the ground on a quick paced stealth mode very focused if there's any other presence in the area.




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Juru vs Geoff

credits: Frank Mulliez

*This image is copyright of its original author
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@peter @Balam @Pckts and other members.



INTRAESPECIFIC MORTALITY CASE OF JAGUARS.


Last night there was an amazing live of Onçafari with 2 great and humble onçafari's biologists Diogo Lucatelli and Lilian Ramplim which both answered my questions.


*This image is copyright of its original author



Unfortunately when I arrived it was nearly the end but I was able to catch some nice information on jaguars interactions and behavior.


My first question was about something that is in my mind for years, the mysterious case about the death of Garoa female (daughter of Chuva female) as I already knew she died on a brutal conflict with other jaguars but with no many details.

Through the live the Presenter woman (in Blue shirt) asked my question to Lilian who had already noticed my question as I dropped it, she responded and found it interesting such a detailed question and she said not many people there make questions pointing out Jaguars names and certain rare cases of many years ago.

About the case she said it was in around 2014-2016, Garoa was feeding on a carcass and then 2 jaguars showed up and messed with Garoa who was all by herself on the carcass, Lilian pointed out that the 2 individuals happened to be Sombra male and Esperança female, they engaged on a brutal fight which resulted on the death of Garoa, so answering my question Sombra and Esperança killed Garoa, her dead body was found by the team with multiples scratches marks over her body, canine marks over the trachea and they collected her body and Garoa's skull is being used for environmental education for children and they're always mentioning Garoa and her skull to the students.

Now that I know the full story I am really intrigued, Garoa went through alot in her short life and she did not deserve what happened to her, as a cub she was many times left alone while her mother Chuva was mating with either Brazuka or Fantasma males and Garoa (still a cub) was nowhere to be seen, even Onçafari was worried and mentioned she was missing for far too long and its not safe for a cub of Garoa's age to be on a vunerable situation like that as male jaguars can kill cubs. Garoa didn't have any cubs and the only male I've seen her with as an adult was the mighty Xavier, she could've been seen with other males but only Lilian, Diogo or the project's president Mario Haberfeld can tell. Lastly she wasn't killed via skull bite as neither Lilian nor Onçafari's page didn't mention anything on this regard nor did they mentioned any sort of damage on her skull and from what's been said the results of their examination on the corpse showed injures ''only'' all over her body. These jaguars dynamics are crazy as nature takes its course.

Garoa's death case described in onçafari's english page in the link bellow.

https://oncafari.org/en/animal/garoa-en/


*This image is copyright of its original author





Garoa's skull

photo: Victor Moriyama


*This image is copyright of its original author




For those who don't know who are the individuals involved.

Garoa female ( 83 kg )


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


Garoa's Pugmarks


*This image is copyright of its original author




Young Garoa's first capture in 2013, Back then she was with an estimated age of 15 months, she weighed 61 kg and looked very healthy.


*This image is copyright of its original author




*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author




Here are the Culprits of Garoa's death.


Esperança female ( 81.8 kg )


*This image is copyright of its original author



Sombra male ( 124 kg )


*This image is copyright of its original author



Here you can see a sighting of both Sombra and Esperança together.


*This image is copyright of its original author




Jaguar compared to Leopards.

Yes, someone made this question and Lilian was very direct on saying they are more different to each other than many people think she said they are veeery distant relatives, jaguars are much larger than leopards with the latter having to be lighter for an arboreal life and in addition to that they need long tails for mobility on climbing trees fast, so leopards are built on a size level of the pumas found in pantanal who are quite thin.

then Lilian pass the answer for Diogo who's been to Africa and he had seen leopards, lions, hyenas... Diogo adds the different status both cats got with leopards in Africa having big competition and having to worried about lions and hyenas to not take away its kill whereas jaguars in America are on top being registered spending a long time about 5 km away from its carcass before getting back to it.



Lilian also mentioned about the fact they thought Nusa was not best suited female jaguar for being a mother as she took a while to be one but Nusa surprised them all as she hid her cub from everyone for 5 months.



Fight of Puma vs Jaguar

someone asked if they've ever seen a fight between puma and jaguar and both biologists said no, Lilian said the Puma will avoid the jaguar as its much smaller, however Diogo mentioned one of his collegues from North Pantanal have registered a fight in Porto Jofre between Puma and Jaguar but by the moment he was gonna continue the presenter kinda derailed the topic a little bit and the conversation kinda turned into a slightly other direction unfortunately.

We know there are Pumas in Porto Jofre as its mentioned and shown via camera traps on my post #296 so a fight between the two sounds interesting in those areas.



Teorema vs Puma and Fantasma

The live was coming to an end and my last question was being ignored by the presenter woman 4 times already and at the very end when the presenter woman was about to read the last question (which obviously wasn't mine repeated for the 5th time) Lilian kinda interupted the presenter woman before she reads someone else's question and Lilian went straight to my message saying its a very interesting one and read it out loud real fast to give time enough to answer it haha The presenter woman went mute lol.

My question was if theres another similar record to Garoa's case or a fight to the death between jaguars that took place at Fazenda Caiman.

She said no, Garoa was the only case on this regard they saw occuring there so far but she mentioned Troncha's death as she believes it was by natural causes due to old age, Troncha was already an extremely old female and all sights of old age were noticed when they found her dead body and by the position of it.

Troncha female's bones.


*This image is copyright of its original author




Then Lilian passed the answer for Diogo to finally confirm it and she asked him if he recalls anything related to Garoa's case, that was when things got really exciting.

Diogo said no, a case similar to Garoa's could've happened elsewhere but he remembers when there was a Puma feeding on a carcass and not too far there was a large female jaguar named Teorema also feeding on the carcass, all of a sudden Teorema started to growl and esturrou (vocalized) loudly to the Puma who moved out but on the other hand that sound Teorema made drew the attention of another jaguar that was passing by not too far from there, as Diogo mentioned suddently a male jaguar came out of nowhere running real fast towards the carcass of Teorema, the male was Fantasma and he had a tough fight against Teorema over the carcass and he got beat up real badly by Teorema and then he left, it surprised everyone, in addition to Diogo's sighting statement Lilian mentioned she recalls Fantasma leaving that place with ugly wound over his face, she said Teorema lacerated his face and chased him away.

Really cool to hear Fantasma's interactions from Diogo Lucatelli though as despite of him being a biologist he is also instructor for almost 9 years at Onçafari, he trains the new members to become successful guides, preparing them to lead safaris, telling them about the importance of the radio collar, and much more. Diogo saw Fantasma male so many times back in the days in 2012 and 2013 which was the last year Fantasma was seen by Onçafari team. I'd like to hear more of Fantasma from Diogo as well as the Puma vs Jaguar conflict in Porto Jofre.

And finally about Teorema..... what a beast, afterall she was a tank of a female. She weighed 95 kg. She is the mother of Nusa female and Pitágoras male.

Teorema beating him and driving him away from her carcass after a moment of the old male coming running confidently towards her to take over the carcass is really impressive, it just shows that a threatened female jaguar's power cannot be underestimated and even though Fantasma might have lost interest we can't take away Teorema's impressive ferociousness to defend her kill in the tough fight as both biologists described. Maybe the old male wasn't going all out but Whatever reason Fantasma decided to retreat it was a consequence of Teorema's attitude, and what an attitude. Lastly I hope the Puma as it left it managed to drag its carcass away before this whole conflict started.


Puma with carcass at Fazenda Caiman.


*This image is copyright of its original author




Fantasma male

credits: Diogo Lucatelli


*This image is copyright of its original author




95 kg Teorema female


*This image is copyright of its original author


She's a beast


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author




95 kg Teorema when captured in 2013


*This image is copyright of its original author





Teorema arriving at her calf carcass and taking it back from Garoa female which was feeding on it while Teorema was away on another case, then Garoa took down a big female Pecari about 100 meters away from Teorema who kept feeding on the calf.


*This image is copyright of its original author


Teorema


*This image is copyright of its original author




I am glad to finally know what really happened to Garoa's death, Sombra and Esperança killing her was insane and intriguing.
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Balam Offline
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(04-07-2021, 04:33 AM)Dark Jaguar Wrote: @peter @Balam @Pckts and other members.



INTRAESPECIFIC MORTALITY CASE OF JAGUARS.


Last night there was an amazing live of Onçafari with 2 great and humble onçafari's biologists Diogo Lucatelli and Lilian Ramplim which both answered my questions.


*This image is copyright of its original author



Unfortunately when I arrived it was nearly the end but I was able to catch some nice information on jaguars interactions and behavior.


My first question was about something that is in my mind for years, the mysterious case about the death of Garoa female (daughter of Chuva female) as I already knew she died on a brutal conflict with other jaguars but with no many details.

Through the live the Presenter woman (in Blue shirt) asked my question to Lilian who had already noticed my question as I dropped it, she responded and found it interesting such a detailed question and she said not many people there make questions pointing out Jaguars names and certain rare cases of many years ago.

About the case she said it was in around 2014-2016, Garoa was feeding on a carcass and then 2 jaguars showed up and messed with Garoa who was all by herself on the carcass, Lilian pointed out that the 2 individuals happened to be Sombra male and Esperança female, they engaged on a brutal fight which resulted on the death of Garoa, so answering my question Sombra and Esperança killed Garoa, her dead body was found by the team with multiples scratches marks over her body, canine marks over the trachea and they collected her body and Garoa's skull is being used for environmental education for children and they're always mentioning Garoa and her skull to the students.

Now that I know the full story I am really intrigued, Garoa went through alot in her short life and she did not deserve what happened to her, as a cub she was many times left alone while her mother Chuva was mating with either Brazuka or Fantasma males and Garoa (still a cub) was nowhere to be seen, even Onçafari was worried and mentioned she was missing for far too long and its not safe for a cub of Garoa's age to be on a vunerable situation like that as male jaguars can kill cubs. Garoa didn't have any cubs and the only male I've seen her with as an adult was the mighty Xavier, she could've been seen with other males but only Lilian, Diogo or the project's president Mario Haberfeld can tell. Lastly she wasn't killed via skull bite as neither Lilian nor Onçafari's page didn't mention anything on this regard nor did they mentioned any sort of damage on her skull and from what's been said the results of their examination on the corpse showed injures ''only'' all over her body. These jaguars dynamics are crazy as nature takes its course.

Garoa's death case described in onçafari's english page in the link bellow.

https://oncafari.org/en/animal/garoa-en/


*This image is copyright of its original author





Garoa's skull

photo: Victor Moriyama


*This image is copyright of its original author




For those who don't know who are the individuals involved.

Garoa female ( 83 kg )


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


Garoa's Pugmarks


*This image is copyright of its original author




Young Garoa's first capture in 2013, Back then she was with an estimated age of 15 months, she weighed 61 kg and looked very healthy.


*This image is copyright of its original author




*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author




Here are the Culprits of Garoa's death.


Esperança female ( 81.8 kg )


*This image is copyright of its original author



Sombra male ( 124 kg )


*This image is copyright of its original author



Here you can see a sighting of both Sombra and Esperança together.


*This image is copyright of its original author




Jaguar compared to Leopards.

Yes, someone made this question and Lilian was very direct on saying they are more different to each other than many people think she said they are veeery distant relatives, jaguars are much larger than leopards with the latter having to be lighter for an arboreal life and in addition to that they need long tails for mobility on climbing trees fast, so leopards are built on a size level of the pumas found in pantanal who are quite thin.

then Lilian pass the answer for Diogo who's been to Africa and he had seen leopards, lions, hyenas... Diogo adds the different status both cats got with leopards in Africa having big competition and having to worried about lions and hyenas to not take away its kill whereas jaguars in America are on top being registered spending a long time about 5 km away from its carcass before getting back to it.



Lilian also mentioned about the fact they thought Nusa was not best suited female jaguar for being a mother as she took a while to be one but Nusa surprised them all as she hid her cub from everyone for 5 months.



Fight of Puma vs Jaguar

someone asked if they've ever seen a fight between puma and jaguar and both biologists said no, Lilian said the Puma will avoid the jaguar as its much smaller, however Diogo mentioned one of his collegues from North Pantanal have registered a fight in Porto Jofre between Puma and Jaguar but by the moment he was gonna continue the presenter kinda derailed the topic a little bit and the conversation kinda turned into a slightly other direction unfortunately.

We know there are Pumas in Porto Jofre as its mentioned and shown via camera traps on my post #296 so a fight between the two sounds interesting in those areas.



Teorema vs Puma and Fantasma

The live was coming to an end and my last question was being ignored by the presenter woman 4 times already and at the very end when the presenter woman was about to read the last question (which obviously wasn't mine repeated for the 5th time) Lilian kinda interupted the presenter woman before she reads someone else's question and Lilian went straight to my message saying its a very interesting one and read it out loud real fast to give time enough to answer it haha The presenter woman went mute lol.

My question was if theres another similar record to Garoa's case or a fight to the death between jaguars that took place at Fazenda Caiman.

She said no, Garoa was the only case on this regard they saw occuring there so far but she mentioned Troncha's death as she believes it was by natural causes due to old age, Troncha was already an extremely old female and all sights of old age were noticed when they found her dead body and by the position of it.

Troncha female's bones.


*This image is copyright of its original author




Then Lilian passed the answer for Diogo to finally confirm it and she asked him if he recalls anything related to Garoa's case, that was when things got really exciting.

Diogo said no, a case similar to Garoa's could've happened elsewhere but he remembers when there was a Puma feeding on a carcass and not too far there was a large female jaguar named Teorema also feeding on the carcass, all of a sudden Teorema started to growl and esturrou (vocalized) loudly to the Puma who moved out but on the other hand that sound Teorema made drew the attention of another jaguar that was passing by not too far from there, as Diogo mentioned suddently a male jaguar came out of nowhere running real fast towards the carcass of Teorema, the male was Fantasma and he had a tough fight against Teorema over the carcass and he got beat up real badly by Teorema and then he left, it surprised everyone, in addition to Diogo's sighting statement Lilian mentioned she recalls Fantasma leaving that place with ugly wound over his face, she said Teorema lacerated his face and chased him away.

Really cool to hear Fantasma's interactions from Diogo Lucatelli though as despite of him being a biologist he is also instructor for almost 9 years at Onçafari, he trains the new members to become successful guides, preparing them to lead safaris, telling them about the importance of the radio collar, and much more. Diogo saw Fantasma male so many times back in the days in 2012 and 2013 which was the last year Fantasma was seen by Onçafari team. I'd like to hear more of Fantasma from Diogo as well as the Puma vs Jaguar conflict in Porto Jofre.

And finally about Teorema..... what a beast, afterall she was a tank of a female. She weighed 95 kg. She is the mother of Nusa female and Pitágoras male.

Teorema beating him and driving him away from her carcass after a moment of the old male coming running confidently towards her to take over the carcass is really impressive, it just shows that a threatened female jaguar's power cannot be underestimated and even though Fantasma might have lost interest we can't take away Teorema's impressive ferociousness to defend her kill in the tough fight as both biologists described. Maybe the old male wasn't going all out but Whatever reason Fantasma decided to retreat it was a consequence of Teorema's attitude, and what an attitude. Lastly I hope the Puma as it left it managed to drag its carcass away before this whole conflict started.


Puma with carcass at Fazenda Caiman.


*This image is copyright of its original author




Fantasma male

credits: Diogo Lucatelli


*This image is copyright of its original author




95 kg Teorema female


*This image is copyright of its original author


She's a beast


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author




95 kg Teorema when captured in 2013


*This image is copyright of its original author





Teorema arriving at her calf carcass and taking it back from Garoa female which was feeding on it while Teorema was away on another case, then Garoa took down a big female Pecari about 100 meters away from Teorema who kept feeding on the calf.


*This image is copyright of its original author


Teorema


*This image is copyright of its original author




I am glad to finally know what really happened to Garoa's death, Sombra and Esperança killing her was insane and intriguing.

There is just so much to unpack here I don't know where to being.

First, I completely agree with you on your description of the Oncafari team as humble, they truly are open to the people and get very excited when enthusiasts like us mention the jaguars by name and show us the knowledge we have of them. They've told me that before several times.

Then it's the Garoa situation, there's still SO much to dive into when it comes to jaguar ecology that people simply are clueless about. After lions, jaguars are undoubtedly the most social pantherine. @epaiva mentioned some time ago about a coalition of males that ruled over Hato Piñero in Venezuela and would team up to defeat adversaries and retain control of their territory. We also know of Katu and Iko's coalition which lasted years despite them not being related by blood.

In the case of Hope and Sombra, my guess is that they were frequent mates, and that meant that they would unify forces to establish dominance. What sucks is that Garoa did not deserve to go through that. Jaguars are so smart and they show such a complex social system that we can see through tracking them how their personalities are and how hard some of them happen to have it in their lives. Garoa was in the wrong place and at the wrong time.

I don't know if Peter knows anything about tigers uniting forces to kill their adversaries, but this phenomenon seems to be so far unique between jaguars and lions among the pantherine felids.

The case of Teorema defeating Fantasma is also extremely interesting, it reminded me of Machili who also sent a few big male tigers limping the other way when she was defending herself or her territory, and we know for a fact that Fantasma was a huge jaguar which Londolozi trackers said to be the size of the tailless lioness, one of the largest lionesses seen at Sabi Sands. I don't have the exact minute with me but I recall there being small footage of Fantasma fighting a female in this documentary, it might've been Teorema:





This also puts in perspective the strength of female jaguars.

In regards to the interactions with cougars, we know for a fact that areas in the Pantanal that are high in jaguar concentration also have lower concentrations of mtn lions per km2. In Paul Denahe's latest book on the northern Pantanal it is also mentioned how cougar densities at Jofre are extremely low. This is also seen in Africa and Asia, areas that have a high number of tigers and lions will house smaller numbers of leopards. Apex carnivores will kill subordinate carnivores if they get the chance, so the former avoid high-risk areas where they may be prone to run into bigger and stronger competition.

Interestingly, Hato la Aurora seems to house really high densities of cougars as well as jaguars as dozens of cougars have been registered in the area according to Nelson Barragan. If this is true then it begs the question as to why they wouldn't avoid that particular jaguar-rich area as well, perhaps abundant prey and prey partitioning?

Edu recently told me that the Oncafari team has only been able to capture one cougar throughout the entire trapping campaigns, this is because their densities are once again really low in high-density jaguar areas. They captured one male who weighed 64 kg (significantly more than Almeida's heaviest of 58 kg), though he did mention he was skeptical of that weight as it was gathered with a mechanical and not a digital scale. It's his opinion that Atlantic Forest cougars may be larger than Pantanal ones as in order to avoid clashes with jaguars cougars in the Pantanal will hunt the smaller prey such as armadillos and coatis, to leave the bigger game to jaguars. That being said, I'm bringing back this size comparison between a very large male cougar and a female I have not been able to ID from Caiman where it can be noted that the tom cougar actually had a larger frame and was taller at the shoulders. If you can help me ID her then we can look up her weight as she was collared and then maybe give an estimation on the cougar's size:


*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author



In regards to the leopard question, I just love how actual biologists don't have the patience or time to go around in circles with this comparison like fanboys on other platforms do. The facts are simple, jaguars and leopards are very different from each other both in their morphology and ecology. They have different behavioral patterns and the size discrepancy between the two is very well defined and marked. Not the same thing at all.

Lastly, let's try to see if we can get our hands on Troncha's skull measurements, we can then compare her to Almeida's record female as I'm sure she would've been bigger. @Pckts maybe you can ask Edu and see if he has that info?
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Brazil Dark Jaguar Offline
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(04-07-2021, 05:43 AM)Balam Wrote:
(04-07-2021, 04:33 AM)Dark Jaguar Wrote: @peter @Balam @Pckts and other members.



INTRAESPECIFIC MORTALITY CASE OF JAGUARS.


Last night there was an amazing live of Onçafari with 2 great and humble onçafari's biologists Diogo Lucatelli and Lilian Ramplim which both answered my questions.


*This image is copyright of its original author



Unfortunately when I arrived it was nearly the end but I was able to catch some nice information on jaguars interactions and behavior.


My first question was about something that is in my mind for years, the mysterious case about the death of Garoa female (daughter of Chuva female) as I already knew she died on a brutal conflict with other jaguars but with no many details.

Through the live the Presenter woman (in Blue shirt) asked my question to Lilian who had already noticed my question as I dropped it, she responded and found it interesting such a detailed question and she said not many people there make questions pointing out Jaguars names and certain rare cases of many years ago.

About the case she said it was in around 2014-2016, Garoa was feeding on a carcass and then 2 jaguars showed up and messed with Garoa who was all by herself on the carcass, Lilian pointed out that the 2 individuals happened to be Sombra male and Esperança female, they engaged on a brutal fight which resulted on the death of Garoa, so answering my question Sombra and Esperança killed Garoa, her dead body was found by the team with multiples scratches marks over her body, canine marks over the trachea and they collected her body and Garoa's skull is being used for environmental education for children and they're always mentioning Garoa and her skull to the students.

Now that I know the full story I am really intrigued, Garoa went through alot in her short life and she did not deserve what happened to her, as a cub she was many times left alone while her mother Chuva was mating with either Brazuka or Fantasma males and Garoa (still a cub) was nowhere to be seen, even Onçafari was worried and mentioned she was missing for far too long and its not safe for a cub of Garoa's age to be on a vunerable situation like that as male jaguars can kill cubs. Garoa didn't have any cubs and the only male I've seen her with as an adult was the mighty Xavier, she could've been seen with other males but only Lilian, Diogo or the project's president Mario Haberfeld can tell. Lastly she wasn't killed via skull bite as neither Lilian nor Onçafari's page didn't mention anything on this regard nor did they mentioned any sort of damage on her skull and from what's been said the results of their examination on the corpse showed injures ''only'' all over her body. These jaguars dynamics are crazy as nature takes its course.

Garoa's death case described in onçafari's english page in the link bellow.

https://oncafari.org/en/animal/garoa-en/


*This image is copyright of its original author





Garoa's skull

photo: Victor Moriyama


*This image is copyright of its original author




For those who don't know who are the individuals involved.

Garoa female ( 83 kg )


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


Garoa's Pugmarks


*This image is copyright of its original author




Young Garoa's first capture in 2013, Back then she was with an estimated age of 15 months, she weighed 61 kg and looked very healthy.


*This image is copyright of its original author




*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author




Here are the Culprits of Garoa's death.


Esperança female ( 81.8 kg )


*This image is copyright of its original author



Sombra male ( 124 kg )


*This image is copyright of its original author



Here you can see a sighting of both Sombra and Esperança together.


*This image is copyright of its original author




Jaguar compared to Leopards.

Yes, someone made this question and Lilian was very direct on saying they are more different to each other than many people think she said they are veeery distant relatives, jaguars are much larger than leopards with the latter having to be lighter for an arboreal life and in addition to that they need long tails for mobility on climbing trees fast, so leopards are built on a size level of the pumas found in pantanal who are quite thin.

then Lilian pass the answer for Diogo who's been to Africa and he had seen leopards, lions, hyenas... Diogo adds the different status both cats got with leopards in Africa having big competition and having to worried about lions and hyenas to not take away its kill whereas jaguars in America are on top being registered spending a long time about 5 km away from its carcass before getting back to it.



Lilian also mentioned about the fact they thought Nusa was not best suited female jaguar for being a mother as she took a while to be one but Nusa surprised them all as she hid her cub from everyone for 5 months.



Fight of Puma vs Jaguar

someone asked if they've ever seen a fight between puma and jaguar and both biologists said no, Lilian said the Puma will avoid the jaguar as its much smaller, however Diogo mentioned one of his collegues from North Pantanal have registered a fight in Porto Jofre between Puma and Jaguar but by the moment he was gonna continue the presenter kinda derailed the topic a little bit and the conversation kinda turned into a slightly other direction unfortunately.

We know there are Pumas in Porto Jofre as its mentioned and shown via camera traps on my post #296 so a fight between the two sounds interesting in those areas.



Teorema vs Puma and Fantasma

The live was coming to an end and my last question was being ignored by the presenter woman 4 times already and at the very end when the presenter woman was about to read the last question (which obviously wasn't mine repeated for the 5th time) Lilian kinda interupted the presenter woman before she reads someone else's question and Lilian went straight to my message saying its a very interesting one and read it out loud real fast to give time enough to answer it haha The presenter woman went mute lol.

My question was if theres another similar record to Garoa's case or a fight to the death between jaguars that took place at Fazenda Caiman.

She said no, Garoa was the only case on this regard they saw occuring there so far but she mentioned Troncha's death as she believes it was by natural causes due to old age, Troncha was already an extremely old female and all sights of old age were noticed when they found her dead body and by the position of it.

Troncha female's bones.


*This image is copyright of its original author




Then Lilian passed the answer for Diogo to finally confirm it and she asked him if he recalls anything related to Garoa's case, that was when things got really exciting.

Diogo said no, a case similar to Garoa's could've happened elsewhere but he remembers when there was a Puma feeding on a carcass and not too far there was a large female jaguar named Teorema also feeding on the carcass, all of a sudden Teorema started to growl and esturrou (vocalized) loudly to the Puma who moved out but on the other hand that sound Teorema made drew the attention of another jaguar that was passing by not too far from there, as Diogo mentioned suddently a male jaguar came out of nowhere running real fast towards the carcass of Teorema, the male was Fantasma and he had a tough fight against Teorema over the carcass and he got beat up real badly by Teorema and then he left, it surprised everyone, in addition to Diogo's sighting statement Lilian mentioned she recalls Fantasma leaving that place with ugly wound over his face, she said Teorema lacerated his face and chased him away.

Really cool to hear Fantasma's interactions from Diogo Lucatelli though as despite of him being a biologist he is also instructor for almost 9 years at Onçafari, he trains the new members to become successful guides, preparing them to lead safaris, telling them about the importance of the radio collar, and much more. Diogo saw Fantasma male so many times back in the days in 2012 and 2013 which was the last year Fantasma was seen by Onçafari team. I'd like to hear more of Fantasma from Diogo as well as the Puma vs Jaguar conflict in Porto Jofre.

And finally about Teorema..... what a beast, afterall she was a tank of a female. She weighed 95 kg. She is the mother of Nusa female and Pitágoras male.

Teorema beating him and driving him away from her carcass after a moment of the old male coming running confidently towards her to take over the carcass is really impressive, it just shows that a threatened female jaguar's power cannot be underestimated and even though Fantasma might have lost interest we can't take away Teorema's impressive ferociousness to defend her kill in the tough fight as both biologists described. Maybe the old male wasn't going all out but Whatever reason Fantasma decided to retreat it was a consequence of Teorema's attitude, and what an attitude. Lastly I hope the Puma as it left it managed to drag its carcass away before this whole conflict started.


Puma with carcass at Fazenda Caiman.


*This image is copyright of its original author




Fantasma male

credits: Diogo Lucatelli


*This image is copyright of its original author




95 kg Teorema female


*This image is copyright of its original author


She's a beast


*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author




95 kg Teorema when captured in 2013


*This image is copyright of its original author





Teorema arriving at her calf carcass and taking it back from Garoa female which was feeding on it while Teorema was away on another case, then Garoa took down a big female Pecari about 100 meters away from Teorema who kept feeding on the calf.


*This image is copyright of its original author


Teorema


*This image is copyright of its original author




I am glad to finally know what really happened to Garoa's death, Sombra and Esperança killing her was insane and intriguing.

There is just so much to unpack here I don't know where to being.

First, I completely agree with you on your description of the Oncafari team as humble, they truly are open to the people and get very excited when enthusiasts like us mention the jaguars by name and show us the knowledge we have of them. They've told me that before several times.

Then it's the Garoa situation, there's still SO much to dive into when it comes to jaguar ecology that people simply are clueless about. After lions, jaguars are undoubtedly the most social pantherine. @epaiva mentioned some time ago about a coalition of males that ruled over Hato Piñero in Venezuela and would team up to defeat adversaries and retain control of their territory. We also know of Katu and Iko's coalition which lasted years despite them not being related by blood.

In the case of Hope and Sombra, my guess is that they were frequent mates, and that meant that they would unify forces to establish dominance. What sucks is that Garoa did not deserve to go through that. Jaguars are so smart and they show such a complex social system that we can see through tracking them how their personalities are and how hard some of them happen to have it in their lives. Garoa was in the wrong place and at the wrong time.

I don't know if Peter knows anything about tigers uniting forces to kill their adversaries, but this phenomenon seems to be so far unique between jaguars and lions among the pantherine felids.

The case of Teorema defeating Fantasma is also extremely interesting, it reminded me of Machili who also sent a few big male tigers limping the other way when she was defending herself or her territory, and we know for a fact that Fantasma was a huge jaguar which Londolozi trackers said to be the size of the tailless lioness, one of the largest lionesses seen at Sabi Sands. I don't have the exact minute with me but I recall there being small footage of Fantasma fighting a female in this documentary, it might've been Teorema:





This also puts in perspective the strength of female jaguars.

In regards to the interactions with cougars, we know for a fact that areas in the Pantanal that are high in jaguar concentration also have lower concentrations of mtn lions per km2. In Paul Denahe's latest book on the northern Pantanal it is also mentioned how cougar densities at Jofre are extremely low. This is also seen in Africa and Asia, areas that have a high number of tigers and lions will house smaller numbers of leopards. Apex carnivores will kill subordinate carnivores if they get the chance, so the former avoid high-risk areas where they may be prone to run into bigger and stronger competition.

Interestingly, Hato la Aurora seems to house really high densities of cougars as well as jaguars as dozens of cougars have been registered in the area according to Nelson Barragan. If this is true then it begs the question as to why they wouldn't avoid that particular jaguar-rich area as well, perhaps abundant prey and prey partitioning?

Edu recently told me that the Oncafari team has only been able to capture one cougar throughout the entire trapping campaigns, this is because their densities are once again really low in high-density jaguar areas. They captured one male who weighed 64 kg (significantly more than Almeida's heaviest of 58 kg), though he did mention he was skeptical of that weight as it was gathered with a mechanical and not a digital scale. It's his opinion that Atlantic Forest cougars may be larger than Pantanal ones as in order to avoid clashes with jaguars cougars in the Pantanal will hunt the smaller prey such as armadillos and coatis, to leave the bigger game to jaguars. That being said, I'm bringing back this size comparison between a very large male cougar and a female I have not been able to ID from Caiman where it can be noted that the tom cougar actually had a larger frame and was taller at the shoulders. If you can help me ID her then we can look up her weight as she was collared and then maybe give an estimation on the cougar's size:


*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author



In regards to the leopard question, I just love how actual biologists don't have the patience or time to go around in circles with this comparison like fanboys on other platforms do. The facts are simple, jaguars and leopards are very different from each other both in their morphology and ecology. They have different behavioral patterns and the size discrepancy between the two is very well defined and marked. Not the same thing at all.

Lastly, let's try to see if we can get our hands on Troncha's skull measurements, we can then compare her to Almeida's record female as I'm sure she would've been bigger. @Pckts maybe you can ask Edu and see if he has that info?

yeah They see questions like that and they get excited, I could see the excitement on Lilian and Diogo as they talked about Fantasma, Garoa, Teorema cases, they can truly express that experience.

Its crazy how IOP is so shut to the enthusiasts, Leandro and IOP won't make the enthusiasts lives easy to get Cerrado jags from PNE infos, this is ridiculous and the weird thing is that IOP is so freaking popular here to the point I saw people mentioning IOP in the Onçafari live, if they would do something together, but I was more focused on getting my questions answered than hearing this answer.

Also I commented something on instagram about the modern average weight of pantanal males being between 105-110 kg and with records of jaguars above 140 kg and guess who gave a like to my comment ???    Onçafari Project hehe.



About the interaction cases I already mentioned in a discussion a while ago in this exact same thread that there are fights interactions of more than 2 jaguars at same time in highly density areas, it happens.

The case of this coalition of males in Venezuela is quite interesting and I wasn't aware of it and it is another example to prove what I said back then combined with Garoa's case.

This coalition of males in Venezuela reminds me what Dr Crawshaw said in the Bafo de Onça live I posted here, he said you can see associations of even coalitions of 2-3 males that walk together in a period, hunting, one vocalizing calling out the other to share the carcass and this seems more common than we used to imagine.

I just don't get why in modern literature jaguars are still said to be ''solitary cats''.

And despite having the bond of Cage and Peter as you mentioned, we also got the bond of Recreio and that prime male on the video of both males just chilling on each other's company in Porto Jofre.

anyways I'd like to hear more about this coalition from Venezuela, sounds rather interesting.



The Garoa case killed by Esperança and Sombra it just displays how a mating pair can be unpredicable behavior wise, their hormones are on fire and they gotta be left alone, I recall reading the Epitaph of the Jaguar by Dr Crawshaw and Dr Schaller together at Acurizal Central Pantanal, they registered a mating pair of jaguars that both ambushed a giant anteater, killed it and didn't even feed on the giant anteater kill, it seems they killed it ''just for fun''.

And I absolutely agree on that Garoa was sadly at wrong place, in the wrong time.



Regarding the strength of females I agree with you, most of times when it comes to jags topics most of the times people just mention males but females kinda get overshadowed but I think their strength can absolutely surprise us, they are just impressively stocky female cats.

Here is a female from Caatinga in Serra da Capivara where you'll see the smallest jags (yet very powerful) and yet you can see robustness on her built and muscular neck, hind legs and more.


*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author





About the Pumas I gotta tell thats impressive for even a few of them being registered at Porto Jofre where it is a highly density jags territory its pretty impressive and regarding ''them showing up at different times of the day'' I am gonna leave Alan Rabinowitz words about interaction of Pumas and Jaguars despite mentioning jaguars dominate more the areas there's something interesting he said I will write down bellow. here's what he says.

''These animals these cats have very soficticated means of communication, they can talk, they can communicate with each other just like we do, theres a whole language there, and both cats knows where each other are and they know when one is in the area if its a male of female, there's a sophisticated system of marking behavior with feces, with urine, with scrapes. so Overall what I found in the field is that I have heard and seen in Bolivia is that jags and pumas live together overlapping often occur in the same jungle or landscape but they're never in the same area at same time and we have cases of local people seeing both cats running into one another on a main road and theres some vocalizations and inevitably the puma have gone off.''

Minute 23:49 of the video bellow.






So even knowing there are so many jags in Porto Jofre Pumas still sticking around there despite being a few is still really badass to me.



About the density compared on the same level as jaguars Pantanal wise maybe the wetlands is not a region Pumas feels as confortable as jags do, jaguars got part of their preys in the waters where is perfectly suitable in the pantanal more for jags than for pumas. Thats what I think.




Thanks for reminding me the conflict of Fantasma in that documentary. I still didnt have time to watch it completely.


Here's the short part of the fight of Fantasma vs Teorema, when Fantasma got beat up.


*This image is copyright of its original author




Remember that video of conflict of 3 female jags I posted in a discussion a while ago?? It was actually 4 female jags on a conflict the individuals involved were Natureza, Garoa, Esperança, Chuva.

Ineterestingly Esperança is mother of Natureza and Chuva is mother of Garoa.


*This image is copyright of its original author






About the female from the camera trap thats Suricata, she's daughter of Esperança and weighed 62 kg and I think she can be very well compared to that male Puma.
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Netherlands peter Offline
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( This post was last modified: 04-08-2021, 05:16 AM by peter )

DARK JAGUAR & BALAM

Read the posts on intraspecific aggression more than once. Thanks to you, this thread has developed into one of the best. Important, as jaguars could use a bit of airplay. Great work. Also say thank you to those involved in field research.
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Balam Offline
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(04-08-2021, 05:12 AM)peter Wrote: DARK JAGUAR & BALAM

Read the posts on intraspecific aggression more than once. Thanks to you, this thread has developed into one of the best. Important, as jaguars could use a bit of airplay. Great work. Also say thank you to those involved in field research.

Thanks Peter, I forgot to tag you in this post but we received first-hand information on Joker's capture, IMO he's the largest jaguar captured by biologists, and would be interesting to get your insight based on the picture Lilian from Oncafari kindly gave me.
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Brazil Dark Jaguar Offline
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(04-08-2021, 05:12 AM)peter Wrote: DARK JAGUAR & BALAM

Read the posts on intraspecific aggression more than once. Thanks to you, this thread has developed into one of the best. Important, as jaguars could use a bit of airplay. Great work. Also say thank you to those involved in field research.

Thanks alot for the appreciation and for the words @peter.

The conflict that led Garoa's death was insane as well as the footage of the fight between Fantasma vs Teorema above, you can really see them both seriously going all out at each other. I wish all of us saw the whole footage though.

Anyways there's more jaguar aggression to come. Thanks.
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