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Intelligence of the big cats...

Finland Shadow Offline
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#61
( This post was last modified: 01-01-2019, 08:14 PM by Shadow )

(01-01-2019, 05:07 AM)paul cooper Wrote: All of these lions are in zoos.

Cabara female lion. On her first trial she didnt open the box. 3 and a half minutes. Dexterity score was low.
Second trial, she didnt open the box. 3 minutes and 13 seconds. Third trial, she didnt open the box. 4 and a half minutes. Fourth trial, she didnt open the box. 28 seconds.

Cattali male lion. On his first trial he didnt open the box. 4 minutes. Dexterity score was low. On his second trial he didnt open the box. 5 minutes and 18 seconds. Third trial he didnt open the box. 31 seconds. Fourth trial he didnt open the box. One minute and 20 seconds.

Baby female lion. On her first trial she didnt open the box. 774 seconds. 12 minutes. Low Dexterity score. On her second trial she didnt open the box. One minute and 28 seconds. Third trial she didnt open the box. 20 seconds.


Natal female lion. On her first trial she didnt open the box. 701 seconds. Low dexterity score. On her second trial she didnt open the box. 3 minutes. Fourth trial she didnt open the box. 108 seconds. one minute and a half.

Tomo male lion. His first and second trial he got it. First trial has high dexterity score. Both trials took over 300 seconds. His third trial he didnt open the box. He was there for 462 seconds.

Not the same results Borrego got.

Do you have some documentation about these tests to share? I would like to see myself too original documents, those are always interesting to read.
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Czech Republic Amnon242 Offline
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( This post was last modified: 01-02-2019, 04:29 AM by Amnon242 )

(01-01-2019, 05:14 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(01-01-2019, 12:49 PM)GuateGojira Wrote: I am interested in the inteligence of the big cats. I can provide information about the tiger, other can provide about lions and we can make a comparison.

Size of the brain is important, there is no discussion, but also is important to see how that size impact the inteligence and how the animals develop they skills in they different habitats. After all, we must remember that most of the animal acts are managed by basic instincts and in some situations they can change to special adaptations regarding the habitat and in the last place, the individual behaviours. I remember that Richard Perry says that "there is no such thing as the tiger, as all the tigers are individuals". I think that the study that you are discussing (I have not read it, yet) lacks this point of view.

Even between humans, the inteligence is something very subjective and depends of the situation and the specimen. I remember an old debate about wolves vs Komodo dragons and I was sure that the wolf, been a large and social mammal will win with no problem, but other experts on reptiles showed that the varanids are also very inteligent.

I think that I will participate in this debate, but for time issues I think that I will post until the next Sunday, you know job issues.

Greetings to all and try to be peaceful and objective in your posts folks.

Heh, it is interesting to get good information. But what comes to size of the brains, that is far from clear thing. Alone it, that the birds manage to do many quite complex tests among many other things proves that, that size is not as important as many other things. There is a lot of information and studies about it. 

Then again what comes to Borrego, it is easy to talk bad about her and her studies. But then everyone should hear what she tells herself, that she has just begun her research and she herself say, that more research is needed. What is interesting is, that now there is someone(s) who are doing studies and developing more tests and test methods hopefully so, that we get more information. I see that as a good thing, not bad.

What comes to tigers and lions in comparison, who cares if it would happen to be so, that lions would happen to be smarter in some way? Would that make tigers suddenly losers for someone? And if another way, so what? I am always amused in a way, if I notice emotional approach to some matter and then a lot of effort to undermine something just because kind of terrified, that we might get a result, which would be "wrong".

Focus here should be, imo, to bring in as much good information as possible. If talking about some tests, which are proving this or that, then just sources here so that everyone can read and watch and make their own opinions. They can be different kinds in this kind of matter with different people, but main thing is, that all can see what information there is. This is not about weights, body fat or measurements of bones and skulls, so it can be difficult to find a situation where conclusions are so clear, that everyone would have to agree in front of overwhelming evidence. So main focus should be in tolerance and avoiding emotional debates.

I have never kept some big cat as superior compared to others, because I haven´t found enough reliable information to back up such claim. I find approach from Borrego interesting, because she opens up quite a lot how she makes her research and gives interviews like here she did. I don´t see her science weak, but as she say herself, she has just begun and a lot of work to do.

If she finds out, that in her tests lions are better, I don´t see any reason why it couldn´t happen, but I hope, that also in future we can see test footage. If she finds out, that tigers do better, then same thing. It is a little bit difficult to make big estimations about her tests, because only a few were shown in documentaries. I was was looking some parts of her tests and also thinked, that "was that all there?", "really and why didn´t they do like this or like that?". Then again she says, that there were hundreds of tests, so what we saw was not all. 

One interesting part in her tests was that group dynamic and how it changed, when male lions came along. It didn´t make it always easy and females seemed to take suddenly a step backwards when more nervous than with other females :) Hyenas were for sure better in working as a group. Another interesting thing was tests with lions in South Africa, those lions obviously have good conditions or then not too many generations in captivity. I mean they seemed to have strong hunting instinct there. What I briefly checked, captivity has effects in big cats and one thing going off is certain hunting instinct and skills. 

But we will see, let the best cat win Wink  But if we have to settle with result, that impossible to find clear winner, that is not so dangerous Grin We can still all maybe learn something new about these animals and that is at least for me the most valuable thing.
"But what comes to size of the brains, that is far from clear thing. Alone it, that the birds manage to do many quite complex tests among many other things proves that, that size is not as important as many other things. There is a lot of information and studies about it."

Hm, as far as i know there is a moderate correlation between brain size and intelligence (as least if you compare related species). The influence of brain size should not be overestimated, but also not underestimated. 

"What comes to tigers and lions in comparison, who cares if it would happen to be so, that lions would happen to be smarter in some way? Would that make tigers suddenly losers for someone? And if another way, so what? I am always amused in a way, if I notice emotional approach to some matter and then a lot of effort to undermine something just because kind of terrified, that we might get a result, which would be "wrong". 

Well, most of us are somewhat biased and we take this theme as a sort of duel between our favourite animals (you too). And its therefore quite understandable that we have tendencies to highlight what is in our favor and to discard the opposite. And this applies to both sides (you too). And for example it is ok to appreciate the study, but it is also legitimate to reject it. And I think its not fair to indicate that this critique is something emotional, motivated by some kind of fear. I suggest not to implant our own thoughts into the minds of other people :-)    

"So main focus should be in tolerance and avoiding emotional debates." vs. "And I don´t mind, that you find it amusing, I find this whole conversation in same way :)"

Thank you for your exemplary approach to communication :-)  
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United States paul cooper Offline
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#63

(01-01-2019, 05:23 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(01-01-2019, 05:07 AM)paul cooper Wrote: All of these lions are in zoos.

Cabara female lion. On her first trial she didnt open the box. 3 and a half minutes. Dexterity score was low.
Second trial, she didnt open the box. 3 minutes and 13 seconds. Third trial, she didnt open the box. 4 and a half minutes. Fourth trial, she didnt open the box. 28 seconds.

Cattali male lion. On his first trial he didnt open the box. 4 minutes. Dexterity score was low. On his second trial he didnt open the box. 5 minutes and 18 seconds. Third trial he didnt open the box. 31 seconds. Fourth trial he didnt open the box. One minute and 20 seconds.

Baby female lion. On her first trial she didnt open the box. 774 seconds. 12 minutes. Low Dexterity score. On her second trial she didnt open the box. One minute and 28 seconds. Third trial she didnt open the box. 20 seconds.


Natal female lion. On her first trial she didnt open the box. 701 seconds. Low dexterity score. On her second trial she didnt open the box. 3 minutes. Fourth trial she didnt open the box. 108 seconds. one minute and a half.

Tomo male lion. His first and second trial he got it. First trial has high dexterity score. Both trials took over 300 seconds. His third trial he didnt open the box. He was there for 462 seconds.

Not the same results Borrego got.

Do you have some documentation about these tests to share? I would like to see myself too original documents, those are always interesting to read.

https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/suppl/....sd01.xlsx
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Finland Shadow Offline
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(01-02-2019, 04:28 AM)Amnon242 Wrote:
(01-01-2019, 05:14 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(01-01-2019, 12:49 PM)GuateGojira Wrote: I am interested in the inteligence of the big cats. I can provide information about the tiger, other can provide about lions and we can make a comparison.

Size of the brain is important, there is no discussion, but also is important to see how that size impact the inteligence and how the animals develop they skills in they different habitats. After all, we must remember that most of the animal acts are managed by basic instincts and in some situations they can change to special adaptations regarding the habitat and in the last place, the individual behaviours. I remember that Richard Perry says that "there is no such thing as the tiger, as all the tigers are individuals". I think that the study that you are discussing (I have not read it, yet) lacks this point of view.

Even between humans, the inteligence is something very subjective and depends of the situation and the specimen. I remember an old debate about wolves vs Komodo dragons and I was sure that the wolf, been a large and social mammal will win with no problem, but other experts on reptiles showed that the varanids are also very inteligent.

I think that I will participate in this debate, but for time issues I think that I will post until the next Sunday, you know job issues.

Greetings to all and try to be peaceful and objective in your posts folks.

Heh, it is interesting to get good information. But what comes to size of the brains, that is far from clear thing. Alone it, that the birds manage to do many quite complex tests among many other things proves that, that size is not as important as many other things. There is a lot of information and studies about it. 

Then again what comes to Borrego, it is easy to talk bad about her and her studies. But then everyone should hear what she tells herself, that she has just begun her research and she herself say, that more research is needed. What is interesting is, that now there is someone(s) who are doing studies and developing more tests and test methods hopefully so, that we get more information. I see that as a good thing, not bad.

What comes to tigers and lions in comparison, who cares if it would happen to be so, that lions would happen to be smarter in some way? Would that make tigers suddenly losers for someone? And if another way, so what? I am always amused in a way, if I notice emotional approach to some matter and then a lot of effort to undermine something just because kind of terrified, that we might get a result, which would be "wrong".

Focus here should be, imo, to bring in as much good information as possible. If talking about some tests, which are proving this or that, then just sources here so that everyone can read and watch and make their own opinions. They can be different kinds in this kind of matter with different people, but main thing is, that all can see what information there is. This is not about weights, body fat or measurements of bones and skulls, so it can be difficult to find a situation where conclusions are so clear, that everyone would have to agree in front of overwhelming evidence. So main focus should be in tolerance and avoiding emotional debates.

I have never kept some big cat as superior compared to others, because I haven´t found enough reliable information to back up such claim. I find approach from Borrego interesting, because she opens up quite a lot how she makes her research and gives interviews like here she did. I don´t see her science weak, but as she say herself, she has just begun and a lot of work to do.

If she finds out, that in her tests lions are better, I don´t see any reason why it couldn´t happen, but I hope, that also in future we can see test footage. If she finds out, that tigers do better, then same thing. It is a little bit difficult to make big estimations about her tests, because only a few were shown in documentaries. I was was looking some parts of her tests and also thinked, that "was that all there?", "really and why didn´t they do like this or like that?". Then again she says, that there were hundreds of tests, so what we saw was not all. 

One interesting part in her tests was that group dynamic and how it changed, when male lions came along. It didn´t make it always easy and females seemed to take suddenly a step backwards when more nervous than with other females :) Hyenas were for sure better in working as a group. Another interesting thing was tests with lions in South Africa, those lions obviously have good conditions or then not too many generations in captivity. I mean they seemed to have strong hunting instinct there. What I briefly checked, captivity has effects in big cats and one thing going off is certain hunting instinct and skills. 

But we will see, let the best cat win Wink  But if we have to settle with result, that impossible to find clear winner, that is not so dangerous Grin We can still all maybe learn something new about these animals and that is at least for me the most valuable thing.
"But what comes to size of the brains, that is far from clear thing. Alone it, that the birds manage to do many quite complex tests among many other things proves that, that size is not as important as many other things. There is a lot of information and studies about it."

Hm, as far as i know there is a moderate correlation between brain size and intelligence (as least if you compare related species). The influence of brain size should not be overestimated, but also not underestimated. 

"What comes to tigers and lions in comparison, who cares if it would happen to be so, that lions would happen to be smarter in some way? Would that make tigers suddenly losers for someone? And if another way, so what? I am always amused in a way, if I notice emotional approach to some matter and then a lot of effort to undermine something just because kind of terrified, that we might get a result, which would be "wrong". 

Well, most of us are somewhat biased and we take this theme as a sort of duel between our favourite animals (you too). And its therefore quite understandable that we have tendencies to highlight what is in our favor and to discard the opposite. And this applies to both sides (you too). And for example it is ok to appreciate the study, but it is also legitimate to reject it. And I think its not fair to indicate that this critique is something emotional, motivated by some kind of fear. I suggest not to implant our own thoughts into the minds of other people :-)    

"So main focus should be in tolerance and avoiding emotional debates." vs. "And I don´t mind, that you find it amusing, I find this whole conversation in same way :)"

Thank you for your exemplary approach to communication :-)  

Of course brain size isn´t irrelevant. But it is not only thing there and as you say, it can´t be underestimated or overestimated. 

And what comes to biased, I really couldn´t care less what results we get. For me it is indifferent which big cat or animal is most intelligent or is any. But it is true, that sometimes I have fun too in conversations like this, no denying in that. Tigers for instance are one of my favorite animals by far. But if I see something, which looks like to be biased, of course I ask questions, if something can be proved or is it just some myth which can´t be confirmed in any reasonable way. In this conversation we are in situation, where not too much can be proven to one direction or another, of course it is ok to like or dislike something, no problem :) 

I mentioned emotional, because that happens too even in this forum time to time. 

And you are welcome what comes to exemplary approach to communication, I just followed the lead Wink

Anyway I hope, that people put here sources for information and we all can see original texts.
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Finland Shadow Offline
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#65

(01-02-2019, 04:39 AM)paul cooper Wrote:
(01-01-2019, 05:23 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(01-01-2019, 05:07 AM)paul cooper Wrote: All of these lions are in zoos.

Cabara female lion. On her first trial she didnt open the box. 3 and a half minutes. Dexterity score was low.
Second trial, she didnt open the box. 3 minutes and 13 seconds. Third trial, she didnt open the box. 4 and a half minutes. Fourth trial, she didnt open the box. 28 seconds.

Cattali male lion. On his first trial he didnt open the box. 4 minutes. Dexterity score was low. On his second trial he didnt open the box. 5 minutes and 18 seconds. Third trial he didnt open the box. 31 seconds. Fourth trial he didnt open the box. One minute and 20 seconds.

Baby female lion. On her first trial she didnt open the box. 774 seconds. 12 minutes. Low Dexterity score. On her second trial she didnt open the box. One minute and 28 seconds. Third trial she didnt open the box. 20 seconds.


Natal female lion. On her first trial she didnt open the box. 701 seconds. Low dexterity score. On her second trial she didnt open the box. 3 minutes. Fourth trial she didnt open the box. 108 seconds. one minute and a half.

Tomo male lion. His first and second trial he got it. First trial has high dexterity score. Both trials took over 300 seconds. His third trial he didnt open the box. He was there for 462 seconds.

Not the same results Borrego got.

Do you have some documentation about these tests to share? I would like to see myself too original documents, those are always interesting to read.

https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/suppl/....sd01.xlsx

Thanks Paul, I look that closer soon. And if I have provoked a little, don´t take it too seriously, bad habit of mine sometimes :)
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Finland Shadow Offline
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#66

(01-02-2019, 04:39 AM)paul cooper Wrote:
(01-01-2019, 05:23 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(01-01-2019, 05:07 AM)paul cooper Wrote: All of these lions are in zoos.

Cabara female lion. On her first trial she didnt open the box. 3 and a half minutes. Dexterity score was low.
Second trial, she didnt open the box. 3 minutes and 13 seconds. Third trial, she didnt open the box. 4 and a half minutes. Fourth trial, she didnt open the box. 28 seconds.

Cattali male lion. On his first trial he didnt open the box. 4 minutes. Dexterity score was low. On his second trial he didnt open the box. 5 minutes and 18 seconds. Third trial he didnt open the box. 31 seconds. Fourth trial he didnt open the box. One minute and 20 seconds.

Baby female lion. On her first trial she didnt open the box. 774 seconds. 12 minutes. Low Dexterity score. On her second trial she didnt open the box. One minute and 28 seconds. Third trial she didnt open the box. 20 seconds.


Natal female lion. On her first trial she didnt open the box. 701 seconds. Low dexterity score. On her second trial she didnt open the box. 3 minutes. Fourth trial she didnt open the box. 108 seconds. one minute and a half.

Tomo male lion. His first and second trial he got it. First trial has high dexterity score. Both trials took over 300 seconds. His third trial he didnt open the box. He was there for 462 seconds.

Not the same results Borrego got.

Do you have some documentation about these tests to share? I would like to see myself too original documents, those are always interesting to read.

https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/suppl/....sd01.xlsx

From what research that excel file is? I didn´t find any names of zoologists or anything else to help finding that.
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United States paul cooper Offline
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This is the study. Proving social animals are not more intelligent than solitary.
http://dx.doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1505913113

About the big cat rescue video, the animals not motivated in opening the boxes starts bringing doubts about the study. Like the study i just sent you, it shows the amount of time the animal was opening the box. I would like to see that for Borregos study. Like i said, this proves the whole experiment is flawed. Thats not really measuring intelligence.
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Finland Shadow Offline
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(01-02-2019, 05:20 AM)paul cooper Wrote: This is the study. Proving social animals are not more intelligent than solitary.
http://dx.doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1505913113

About the big cat rescue video, the animals not motivated in opening the boxes starts bringing doubts about the study. Like the study i just sent you, it shows the amount of time the animal was opening the box. I would like to see that for Borregos study. Like i said, this proves the whole experiment is flawed. Thats not really measuring intelligence.

Well, I want to know more about things before I say too much to one or another direction. Time will tell if she can provide information, which is broadly agreed or not. But interesting subject what she now is studying. I guess, that in some time soon we get also that Borrego-Dowling report public.
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Finland Shadow Offline
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I looked briefly that study and excel. Interesting naturally. When looking at excel, now we have new contenders, bobcat/lynx and snow leopards :) Not forgetting that genius Jaguar there Wink

But interesting to see these studies. It would be very interesting to see these different researchers meeting somewhere and discussing/debating too.
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Czech Republic Amnon242 Offline
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#70

(01-02-2019, 04:45 AM)Shadow Wrote:
(01-02-2019, 04:28 AM)Amnon242 Wrote:
(01-01-2019, 05:14 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(01-01-2019, 12:49 PM)GuateGojira Wrote: I am interested in the inteligence of the big cats. I can provide information about the tiger, other can provide about lions and we can make a comparison.

Size of the brain is important, there is no discussion, but also is important to see how that size impact the inteligence and how the animals develop they skills in they different habitats. After all, we must remember that most of the animal acts are managed by basic instincts and in some situations they can change to special adaptations regarding the habitat and in the last place, the individual behaviours. I remember that Richard Perry says that "there is no such thing as the tiger, as all the tigers are individuals". I think that the study that you are discussing (I have not read it, yet) lacks this point of view.

Even between humans, the inteligence is something very subjective and depends of the situation and the specimen. I remember an old debate about wolves vs Komodo dragons and I was sure that the wolf, been a large and social mammal will win with no problem, but other experts on reptiles showed that the varanids are also very inteligent.

I think that I will participate in this debate, but for time issues I think that I will post until the next Sunday, you know job issues.

Greetings to all and try to be peaceful and objective in your posts folks.

Heh, it is interesting to get good information. But what comes to size of the brains, that is far from clear thing. Alone it, that the birds manage to do many quite complex tests among many other things proves that, that size is not as important as many other things. There is a lot of information and studies about it. 

Then again what comes to Borrego, it is easy to talk bad about her and her studies. But then everyone should hear what she tells herself, that she has just begun her research and she herself say, that more research is needed. What is interesting is, that now there is someone(s) who are doing studies and developing more tests and test methods hopefully so, that we get more information. I see that as a good thing, not bad.

What comes to tigers and lions in comparison, who cares if it would happen to be so, that lions would happen to be smarter in some way? Would that make tigers suddenly losers for someone? And if another way, so what? I am always amused in a way, if I notice emotional approach to some matter and then a lot of effort to undermine something just because kind of terrified, that we might get a result, which would be "wrong".

Focus here should be, imo, to bring in as much good information as possible. If talking about some tests, which are proving this or that, then just sources here so that everyone can read and watch and make their own opinions. They can be different kinds in this kind of matter with different people, but main thing is, that all can see what information there is. This is not about weights, body fat or measurements of bones and skulls, so it can be difficult to find a situation where conclusions are so clear, that everyone would have to agree in front of overwhelming evidence. So main focus should be in tolerance and avoiding emotional debates.

I have never kept some big cat as superior compared to others, because I haven´t found enough reliable information to back up such claim. I find approach from Borrego interesting, because she opens up quite a lot how she makes her research and gives interviews like here she did. I don´t see her science weak, but as she say herself, she has just begun and a lot of work to do.

If she finds out, that in her tests lions are better, I don´t see any reason why it couldn´t happen, but I hope, that also in future we can see test footage. If she finds out, that tigers do better, then same thing. It is a little bit difficult to make big estimations about her tests, because only a few were shown in documentaries. I was was looking some parts of her tests and also thinked, that "was that all there?", "really and why didn´t they do like this or like that?". Then again she says, that there were hundreds of tests, so what we saw was not all. 

One interesting part in her tests was that group dynamic and how it changed, when male lions came along. It didn´t make it always easy and females seemed to take suddenly a step backwards when more nervous than with other females :) Hyenas were for sure better in working as a group. Another interesting thing was tests with lions in South Africa, those lions obviously have good conditions or then not too many generations in captivity. I mean they seemed to have strong hunting instinct there. What I briefly checked, captivity has effects in big cats and one thing going off is certain hunting instinct and skills. 

But we will see, let the best cat win Wink  But if we have to settle with result, that impossible to find clear winner, that is not so dangerous Grin We can still all maybe learn something new about these animals and that is at least for me the most valuable thing.
"But what comes to size of the brains, that is far from clear thing. Alone it, that the birds manage to do many quite complex tests among many other things proves that, that size is not as important as many other things. There is a lot of information and studies about it."

Hm, as far as i know there is a moderate correlation between brain size and intelligence (as least if you compare related species). The influence of brain size should not be overestimated, but also not underestimated. 

"What comes to tigers and lions in comparison, who cares if it would happen to be so, that lions would happen to be smarter in some way? Would that make tigers suddenly losers for someone? And if another way, so what? I am always amused in a way, if I notice emotional approach to some matter and then a lot of effort to undermine something just because kind of terrified, that we might get a result, which would be "wrong". 

Well, most of us are somewhat biased and we take this theme as a sort of duel between our favourite animals (you too). And its therefore quite understandable that we have tendencies to highlight what is in our favor and to discard the opposite. And this applies to both sides (you too). And for example it is ok to appreciate the study, but it is also legitimate to reject it. And I think its not fair to indicate that this critique is something emotional, motivated by some kind of fear. I suggest not to implant our own thoughts into the minds of other people :-)    

"So main focus should be in tolerance and avoiding emotional debates." vs. "And I don´t mind, that you find it amusing, I find this whole conversation in same way :)"

Thank you for your exemplary approach to communication :-)  

Of course brain size isn´t irrelevant. But it is not only thing there and as you say, it can´t be underestimated or overestimated. 

And what comes to biased, I really couldn´t care less what results we get. For me it is indifferent which big cat or animal is most intelligent or is any. But it is true, that sometimes I have fun too in conversations like this, no denying in that. Tigers for instance are one of my favorite animals by far. But if I see something, which looks like to be biased, of course I ask questions, if something can be proved or is it just some myth which can´t be confirmed in any reasonable way. In this conversation we are in situation, where not too much can be proven to one direction or another, of course it is ok to like or dislike something, no problem :) 

I mentioned emotional, because that happens too even in this forum time to time. 

And you are welcome what comes to exemplary approach to communication, I just followed the lead Wink

Anyway I hope, that people put here sources for information and we all can see original texts.

Well, thats your statement :-). And everybody is free to judge whether or not you use some manipulation in your posts :-)
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Czech Republic Amnon242 Offline
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#71

(01-02-2019, 05:20 AM)paul cooper Wrote: This is the study. Proving social animals are not more intelligent than solitary.
http://dx.doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1505913113

About the big cat rescue video, the animals not motivated in opening the boxes starts bringing doubts about the study. Like the study i just sent you, it shows the amount of time the animal was opening the box. I would like to see that for Borregos study. Like i said, this proves the whole experiment is flawed. Thats not really measuring intelligence.

Lack of motivation is one of the reasons why I dont take these experiments too seriously. Anyway I belive that mental abilities of animals are so complex that such experiments (invented by a mind of a human) have low evidential value even if they are done with motivated animals. And BTW I personaly give higher value to opinions of those who are in close and frequent contact with animals...as in assessing mental abilities of people - I would rather go with the opinion of those who know them personally rather than with their results in solving some puzzle.   

Anyway I think there is safe to say that in certain areas lions definitely do better (like in counting or coopoeration). But tigers could be better for example when it comes to orientation in more complex environment...and so on...
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Finland Shadow Offline
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(01-18-2019, 11:49 PM)Amnon242 Wrote:
(01-02-2019, 04:45 AM)Shadow Wrote:
(01-02-2019, 04:28 AM)Amnon242 Wrote:
(01-01-2019, 05:14 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(01-01-2019, 12:49 PM)GuateGojira Wrote: I am interested in the inteligence of the big cats. I can provide information about the tiger, other can provide about lions and we can make a comparison.

Size of the brain is important, there is no discussion, but also is important to see how that size impact the inteligence and how the animals develop they skills in they different habitats. After all, we must remember that most of the animal acts are managed by basic instincts and in some situations they can change to special adaptations regarding the habitat and in the last place, the individual behaviours. I remember that Richard Perry says that "there is no such thing as the tiger, as all the tigers are individuals". I think that the study that you are discussing (I have not read it, yet) lacks this point of view.

Even between humans, the inteligence is something very subjective and depends of the situation and the specimen. I remember an old debate about wolves vs Komodo dragons and I was sure that the wolf, been a large and social mammal will win with no problem, but other experts on reptiles showed that the varanids are also very inteligent.

I think that I will participate in this debate, but for time issues I think that I will post until the next Sunday, you know job issues.

Greetings to all and try to be peaceful and objective in your posts folks.

Heh, it is interesting to get good information. But what comes to size of the brains, that is far from clear thing. Alone it, that the birds manage to do many quite complex tests among many other things proves that, that size is not as important as many other things. There is a lot of information and studies about it. 

Then again what comes to Borrego, it is easy to talk bad about her and her studies. But then everyone should hear what she tells herself, that she has just begun her research and she herself say, that more research is needed. What is interesting is, that now there is someone(s) who are doing studies and developing more tests and test methods hopefully so, that we get more information. I see that as a good thing, not bad.

What comes to tigers and lions in comparison, who cares if it would happen to be so, that lions would happen to be smarter in some way? Would that make tigers suddenly losers for someone? And if another way, so what? I am always amused in a way, if I notice emotional approach to some matter and then a lot of effort to undermine something just because kind of terrified, that we might get a result, which would be "wrong".

Focus here should be, imo, to bring in as much good information as possible. If talking about some tests, which are proving this or that, then just sources here so that everyone can read and watch and make their own opinions. They can be different kinds in this kind of matter with different people, but main thing is, that all can see what information there is. This is not about weights, body fat or measurements of bones and skulls, so it can be difficult to find a situation where conclusions are so clear, that everyone would have to agree in front of overwhelming evidence. So main focus should be in tolerance and avoiding emotional debates.

I have never kept some big cat as superior compared to others, because I haven´t found enough reliable information to back up such claim. I find approach from Borrego interesting, because she opens up quite a lot how she makes her research and gives interviews like here she did. I don´t see her science weak, but as she say herself, she has just begun and a lot of work to do.

If she finds out, that in her tests lions are better, I don´t see any reason why it couldn´t happen, but I hope, that also in future we can see test footage. If she finds out, that tigers do better, then same thing. It is a little bit difficult to make big estimations about her tests, because only a few were shown in documentaries. I was was looking some parts of her tests and also thinked, that "was that all there?", "really and why didn´t they do like this or like that?". Then again she says, that there were hundreds of tests, so what we saw was not all. 

One interesting part in her tests was that group dynamic and how it changed, when male lions came along. It didn´t make it always easy and females seemed to take suddenly a step backwards when more nervous than with other females :) Hyenas were for sure better in working as a group. Another interesting thing was tests with lions in South Africa, those lions obviously have good conditions or then not too many generations in captivity. I mean they seemed to have strong hunting instinct there. What I briefly checked, captivity has effects in big cats and one thing going off is certain hunting instinct and skills. 

But we will see, let the best cat win Wink  But if we have to settle with result, that impossible to find clear winner, that is not so dangerous Grin We can still all maybe learn something new about these animals and that is at least for me the most valuable thing.
"But what comes to size of the brains, that is far from clear thing. Alone it, that the birds manage to do many quite complex tests among many other things proves that, that size is not as important as many other things. There is a lot of information and studies about it."

Hm, as far as i know there is a moderate correlation between brain size and intelligence (as least if you compare related species). The influence of brain size should not be overestimated, but also not underestimated. 

"What comes to tigers and lions in comparison, who cares if it would happen to be so, that lions would happen to be smarter in some way? Would that make tigers suddenly losers for someone? And if another way, so what? I am always amused in a way, if I notice emotional approach to some matter and then a lot of effort to undermine something just because kind of terrified, that we might get a result, which would be "wrong". 

Well, most of us are somewhat biased and we take this theme as a sort of duel between our favourite animals (you too). And its therefore quite understandable that we have tendencies to highlight what is in our favor and to discard the opposite. And this applies to both sides (you too). And for example it is ok to appreciate the study, but it is also legitimate to reject it. And I think its not fair to indicate that this critique is something emotional, motivated by some kind of fear. I suggest not to implant our own thoughts into the minds of other people :-)    

"So main focus should be in tolerance and avoiding emotional debates." vs. "And I don´t mind, that you find it amusing, I find this whole conversation in same way :)"

Thank you for your exemplary approach to communication :-)  

Of course brain size isn´t irrelevant. But it is not only thing there and as you say, it can´t be underestimated or overestimated. 

And what comes to biased, I really couldn´t care less what results we get. For me it is indifferent which big cat or animal is most intelligent or is any. But it is true, that sometimes I have fun too in conversations like this, no denying in that. Tigers for instance are one of my favorite animals by far. But if I see something, which looks like to be biased, of course I ask questions, if something can be proved or is it just some myth which can´t be confirmed in any reasonable way. In this conversation we are in situation, where not too much can be proven to one direction or another, of course it is ok to like or dislike something, no problem :) 

I mentioned emotional, because that happens too even in this forum time to time. 

And you are welcome what comes to exemplary approach to communication, I just followed the lead Wink

Anyway I hope, that people put here sources for information and we all can see original texts.

Well, thats your statement :-). And everybody is free to judge whether or not you use some manipulation in your posts :-)
Of course, that is why it is important to put all sources for everyone to see. I have seen opinions like "tigers are 16% more intelligent than lions, because their brain volume is 16% bigger Grin It is always funny to see how people try to make complicated matters to look like simple Grin As said before, intelligence of animals is interesting thing and it is quite difficult to say too much before there is more research.
Reply

Czech Republic Amnon242 Offline
Tiger Enthusiast
***
#73

(01-19-2019, 12:37 AM)Shadow Wrote:
(01-18-2019, 11:49 PM)Amnon242 Wrote:
(01-02-2019, 04:45 AM)Shadow Wrote:
(01-02-2019, 04:28 AM)Amnon242 Wrote:
(01-01-2019, 05:14 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(01-01-2019, 12:49 PM)GuateGojira Wrote: I am interested in the inteligence of the big cats. I can provide information about the tiger, other can provide about lions and we can make a comparison.

Size of the brain is important, there is no discussion, but also is important to see how that size impact the inteligence and how the animals develop they skills in they different habitats. After all, we must remember that most of the animal acts are managed by basic instincts and in some situations they can change to special adaptations regarding the habitat and in the last place, the individual behaviours. I remember that Richard Perry says that "there is no such thing as the tiger, as all the tigers are individuals". I think that the study that you are discussing (I have not read it, yet) lacks this point of view.

Even between humans, the inteligence is something very subjective and depends of the situation and the specimen. I remember an old debate about wolves vs Komodo dragons and I was sure that the wolf, been a large and social mammal will win with no problem, but other experts on reptiles showed that the varanids are also very inteligent.

I think that I will participate in this debate, but for time issues I think that I will post until the next Sunday, you know job issues.

Greetings to all and try to be peaceful and objective in your posts folks.

Heh, it is interesting to get good information. But what comes to size of the brains, that is far from clear thing. Alone it, that the birds manage to do many quite complex tests among many other things proves that, that size is not as important as many other things. There is a lot of information and studies about it. 

Then again what comes to Borrego, it is easy to talk bad about her and her studies. But then everyone should hear what she tells herself, that she has just begun her research and she herself say, that more research is needed. What is interesting is, that now there is someone(s) who are doing studies and developing more tests and test methods hopefully so, that we get more information. I see that as a good thing, not bad.

What comes to tigers and lions in comparison, who cares if it would happen to be so, that lions would happen to be smarter in some way? Would that make tigers suddenly losers for someone? And if another way, so what? I am always amused in a way, if I notice emotional approach to some matter and then a lot of effort to undermine something just because kind of terrified, that we might get a result, which would be "wrong".

Focus here should be, imo, to bring in as much good information as possible. If talking about some tests, which are proving this or that, then just sources here so that everyone can read and watch and make their own opinions. They can be different kinds in this kind of matter with different people, but main thing is, that all can see what information there is. This is not about weights, body fat or measurements of bones and skulls, so it can be difficult to find a situation where conclusions are so clear, that everyone would have to agree in front of overwhelming evidence. So main focus should be in tolerance and avoiding emotional debates.

I have never kept some big cat as superior compared to others, because I haven´t found enough reliable information to back up such claim. I find approach from Borrego interesting, because she opens up quite a lot how she makes her research and gives interviews like here she did. I don´t see her science weak, but as she say herself, she has just begun and a lot of work to do.

If she finds out, that in her tests lions are better, I don´t see any reason why it couldn´t happen, but I hope, that also in future we can see test footage. If she finds out, that tigers do better, then same thing. It is a little bit difficult to make big estimations about her tests, because only a few were shown in documentaries. I was was looking some parts of her tests and also thinked, that "was that all there?", "really and why didn´t they do like this or like that?". Then again she says, that there were hundreds of tests, so what we saw was not all. 

One interesting part in her tests was that group dynamic and how it changed, when male lions came along. It didn´t make it always easy and females seemed to take suddenly a step backwards when more nervous than with other females :) Hyenas were for sure better in working as a group. Another interesting thing was tests with lions in South Africa, those lions obviously have good conditions or then not too many generations in captivity. I mean they seemed to have strong hunting instinct there. What I briefly checked, captivity has effects in big cats and one thing going off is certain hunting instinct and skills. 

But we will see, let the best cat win Wink  But if we have to settle with result, that impossible to find clear winner, that is not so dangerous Grin We can still all maybe learn something new about these animals and that is at least for me the most valuable thing.
"But what comes to size of the brains, that is far from clear thing. Alone it, that the birds manage to do many quite complex tests among many other things proves that, that size is not as important as many other things. There is a lot of information and studies about it."

Hm, as far as i know there is a moderate correlation between brain size and intelligence (as least if you compare related species). The influence of brain size should not be overestimated, but also not underestimated. 

"What comes to tigers and lions in comparison, who cares if it would happen to be so, that lions would happen to be smarter in some way? Would that make tigers suddenly losers for someone? And if another way, so what? I am always amused in a way, if I notice emotional approach to some matter and then a lot of effort to undermine something just because kind of terrified, that we might get a result, which would be "wrong". 

Well, most of us are somewhat biased and we take this theme as a sort of duel between our favourite animals (you too). And its therefore quite understandable that we have tendencies to highlight what is in our favor and to discard the opposite. And this applies to both sides (you too). And for example it is ok to appreciate the study, but it is also legitimate to reject it. And I think its not fair to indicate that this critique is something emotional, motivated by some kind of fear. I suggest not to implant our own thoughts into the minds of other people :-)    

"So main focus should be in tolerance and avoiding emotional debates." vs. "And I don´t mind, that you find it amusing, I find this whole conversation in same way :)"

Thank you for your exemplary approach to communication :-)  

Of course brain size isn´t irrelevant. But it is not only thing there and as you say, it can´t be underestimated or overestimated. 

And what comes to biased, I really couldn´t care less what results we get. For me it is indifferent which big cat or animal is most intelligent or is any. But it is true, that sometimes I have fun too in conversations like this, no denying in that. Tigers for instance are one of my favorite animals by far. But if I see something, which looks like to be biased, of course I ask questions, if something can be proved or is it just some myth which can´t be confirmed in any reasonable way. In this conversation we are in situation, where not too much can be proven to one direction or another, of course it is ok to like or dislike something, no problem :) 

I mentioned emotional, because that happens too even in this forum time to time. 

And you are welcome what comes to exemplary approach to communication, I just followed the lead Wink

Anyway I hope, that people put here sources for information and we all can see original texts.

Well, thats your statement :-). And everybody is free to judge whether or not you use some manipulation in your posts :-)
Of course, that is why it is important to put all sources for everyone to see. I have seen opinions like "tigers are 16% more intelligent than lions, because their brain volume is 16% bigger Grin It is always funny to see how people try to make complicated matters to look like simple Grin As said before, intelligence of animals is interesting thing and it is quite difficult to say too much before there is more research.

" I have seen opinions like "tigers are 16% more intelligent than lions, because their brain volume is 16% bigger" 

Source? :-) 

BTW I´m afraid you didnt understand the real meaning of my post (70), but that doesnt matter...  
Reply

Finland Shadow Offline
Moderator
*****
Moderators
#74

(01-19-2019, 01:50 AM)Amnon242 Wrote:
(01-19-2019, 12:37 AM)Shadow Wrote:
(01-18-2019, 11:49 PM)Amnon242 Wrote:
(01-02-2019, 04:45 AM)Shadow Wrote:
(01-02-2019, 04:28 AM)Amnon242 Wrote:
(01-01-2019, 05:14 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(01-01-2019, 12:49 PM)GuateGojira Wrote: I am interested in the inteligence of the big cats. I can provide information about the tiger, other can provide about lions and we can make a comparison.

Size of the brain is important, there is no discussion, but also is important to see how that size impact the inteligence and how the animals develop they skills in they different habitats. After all, we must remember that most of the animal acts are managed by basic instincts and in some situations they can change to special adaptations regarding the habitat and in the last place, the individual behaviours. I remember that Richard Perry says that "there is no such thing as the tiger, as all the tigers are individuals". I think that the study that you are discussing (I have not read it, yet) lacks this point of view.

Even between humans, the inteligence is something very subjective and depends of the situation and the specimen. I remember an old debate about wolves vs Komodo dragons and I was sure that the wolf, been a large and social mammal will win with no problem, but other experts on reptiles showed that the varanids are also very inteligent.

I think that I will participate in this debate, but for time issues I think that I will post until the next Sunday, you know job issues.

Greetings to all and try to be peaceful and objective in your posts folks.

Heh, it is interesting to get good information. But what comes to size of the brains, that is far from clear thing. Alone it, that the birds manage to do many quite complex tests among many other things proves that, that size is not as important as many other things. There is a lot of information and studies about it. 

Then again what comes to Borrego, it is easy to talk bad about her and her studies. But then everyone should hear what she tells herself, that she has just begun her research and she herself say, that more research is needed. What is interesting is, that now there is someone(s) who are doing studies and developing more tests and test methods hopefully so, that we get more information. I see that as a good thing, not bad.

What comes to tigers and lions in comparison, who cares if it would happen to be so, that lions would happen to be smarter in some way? Would that make tigers suddenly losers for someone? And if another way, so what? I am always amused in a way, if I notice emotional approach to some matter and then a lot of effort to undermine something just because kind of terrified, that we might get a result, which would be "wrong".

Focus here should be, imo, to bring in as much good information as possible. If talking about some tests, which are proving this or that, then just sources here so that everyone can read and watch and make their own opinions. They can be different kinds in this kind of matter with different people, but main thing is, that all can see what information there is. This is not about weights, body fat or measurements of bones and skulls, so it can be difficult to find a situation where conclusions are so clear, that everyone would have to agree in front of overwhelming evidence. So main focus should be in tolerance and avoiding emotional debates.

I have never kept some big cat as superior compared to others, because I haven´t found enough reliable information to back up such claim. I find approach from Borrego interesting, because she opens up quite a lot how she makes her research and gives interviews like here she did. I don´t see her science weak, but as she say herself, she has just begun and a lot of work to do.

If she finds out, that in her tests lions are better, I don´t see any reason why it couldn´t happen, but I hope, that also in future we can see test footage. If she finds out, that tigers do better, then same thing. It is a little bit difficult to make big estimations about her tests, because only a few were shown in documentaries. I was was looking some parts of her tests and also thinked, that "was that all there?", "really and why didn´t they do like this or like that?". Then again she says, that there were hundreds of tests, so what we saw was not all. 

One interesting part in her tests was that group dynamic and how it changed, when male lions came along. It didn´t make it always easy and females seemed to take suddenly a step backwards when more nervous than with other females :) Hyenas were for sure better in working as a group. Another interesting thing was tests with lions in South Africa, those lions obviously have good conditions or then not too many generations in captivity. I mean they seemed to have strong hunting instinct there. What I briefly checked, captivity has effects in big cats and one thing going off is certain hunting instinct and skills. 

But we will see, let the best cat win Wink  But if we have to settle with result, that impossible to find clear winner, that is not so dangerous Grin We can still all maybe learn something new about these animals and that is at least for me the most valuable thing.
"But what comes to size of the brains, that is far from clear thing. Alone it, that the birds manage to do many quite complex tests among many other things proves that, that size is not as important as many other things. There is a lot of information and studies about it."

Hm, as far as i know there is a moderate correlation between brain size and intelligence (as least if you compare related species). The influence of brain size should not be overestimated, but also not underestimated. 

"What comes to tigers and lions in comparison, who cares if it would happen to be so, that lions would happen to be smarter in some way? Would that make tigers suddenly losers for someone? And if another way, so what? I am always amused in a way, if I notice emotional approach to some matter and then a lot of effort to undermine something just because kind of terrified, that we might get a result, which would be "wrong". 

Well, most of us are somewhat biased and we take this theme as a sort of duel between our favourite animals (you too). And its therefore quite understandable that we have tendencies to highlight what is in our favor and to discard the opposite. And this applies to both sides (you too). And for example it is ok to appreciate the study, but it is also legitimate to reject it. And I think its not fair to indicate that this critique is something emotional, motivated by some kind of fear. I suggest not to implant our own thoughts into the minds of other people :-)    

"So main focus should be in tolerance and avoiding emotional debates." vs. "And I don´t mind, that you find it amusing, I find this whole conversation in same way :)"

Thank you for your exemplary approach to communication :-)  

Of course brain size isn´t irrelevant. But it is not only thing there and as you say, it can´t be underestimated or overestimated. 

And what comes to biased, I really couldn´t care less what results we get. For me it is indifferent which big cat or animal is most intelligent or is any. But it is true, that sometimes I have fun too in conversations like this, no denying in that. Tigers for instance are one of my favorite animals by far. But if I see something, which looks like to be biased, of course I ask questions, if something can be proved or is it just some myth which can´t be confirmed in any reasonable way. In this conversation we are in situation, where not too much can be proven to one direction or another, of course it is ok to like or dislike something, no problem :) 

I mentioned emotional, because that happens too even in this forum time to time. 

And you are welcome what comes to exemplary approach to communication, I just followed the lead Wink

Anyway I hope, that people put here sources for information and we all can see original texts.

Well, thats your statement :-). And everybody is free to judge whether or not you use some manipulation in your posts :-)
Of course, that is why it is important to put all sources for everyone to see. I have seen opinions like "tigers are 16% more intelligent than lions, because their brain volume is 16% bigger Grin It is always funny to see how people try to make complicated matters to look like simple Grin As said before, intelligence of animals is interesting thing and it is quite difficult to say too much before there is more research.

" I have seen opinions like "tigers are 16% more intelligent than lions, because their brain volume is 16% bigger" 

Source? :-) 

BTW I´m afraid you didnt understand the real meaning of my post (70), but that doesnt matter...  

Source was a distant memory from many threads, which have given me good laughs :) And I am happy, that it is just distance memory Grin

And we are all sometimes afraid, but it is not so dangerous Wink Just part of life.
Reply

Czech Republic Amnon242 Offline
Tiger Enthusiast
***
#75

(01-19-2019, 02:02 AM)Shadow Wrote:
(01-19-2019, 01:50 AM)Amnon242 Wrote:
(01-19-2019, 12:37 AM)Shadow Wrote:
(01-18-2019, 11:49 PM)Amnon242 Wrote:
(01-02-2019, 04:45 AM)Shadow Wrote:
(01-02-2019, 04:28 AM)Amnon242 Wrote:
(01-01-2019, 05:14 PM)Shadow Wrote:
(01-01-2019, 12:49 PM)GuateGojira Wrote: I am interested in the inteligence of the big cats. I can provide information about the tiger, other can provide about lions and we can make a comparison.

Size of the brain is important, there is no discussion, but also is important to see how that size impact the inteligence and how the animals develop they skills in they different habitats. After all, we must remember that most of the animal acts are managed by basic instincts and in some situations they can change to special adaptations regarding the habitat and in the last place, the individual behaviours. I remember that Richard Perry says that "there is no such thing as the tiger, as all the tigers are individuals". I think that the study that you are discussing (I have not read it, yet) lacks this point of view.

Even between humans, the inteligence is something very subjective and depends of the situation and the specimen. I remember an old debate about wolves vs Komodo dragons and I was sure that the wolf, been a large and social mammal will win with no problem, but other experts on reptiles showed that the varanids are also very inteligent.

I think that I will participate in this debate, but for time issues I think that I will post until the next Sunday, you know job issues.

Greetings to all and try to be peaceful and objective in your posts folks.

Heh, it is interesting to get good information. But what comes to size of the brains, that is far from clear thing. Alone it, that the birds manage to do many quite complex tests among many other things proves that, that size is not as important as many other things. There is a lot of information and studies about it. 

Then again what comes to Borrego, it is easy to talk bad about her and her studies. But then everyone should hear what she tells herself, that she has just begun her research and she herself say, that more research is needed. What is interesting is, that now there is someone(s) who are doing studies and developing more tests and test methods hopefully so, that we get more information. I see that as a good thing, not bad.

What comes to tigers and lions in comparison, who cares if it would happen to be so, that lions would happen to be smarter in some way? Would that make tigers suddenly losers for someone? And if another way, so what? I am always amused in a way, if I notice emotional approach to some matter and then a lot of effort to undermine something just because kind of terrified, that we might get a result, which would be "wrong".

Focus here should be, imo, to bring in as much good information as possible. If talking about some tests, which are proving this or that, then just sources here so that everyone can read and watch and make their own opinions. They can be different kinds in this kind of matter with different people, but main thing is, that all can see what information there is. This is not about weights, body fat or measurements of bones and skulls, so it can be difficult to find a situation where conclusions are so clear, that everyone would have to agree in front of overwhelming evidence. So main focus should be in tolerance and avoiding emotional debates.

I have never kept some big cat as superior compared to others, because I haven´t found enough reliable information to back up such claim. I find approach from Borrego interesting, because she opens up quite a lot how she makes her research and gives interviews like here she did. I don´t see her science weak, but as she say herself, she has just begun and a lot of work to do.

If she finds out, that in her tests lions are better, I don´t see any reason why it couldn´t happen, but I hope, that also in future we can see test footage. If she finds out, that tigers do better, then same thing. It is a little bit difficult to make big estimations about her tests, because only a few were shown in documentaries. I was was looking some parts of her tests and also thinked, that "was that all there?", "really and why didn´t they do like this or like that?". Then again she says, that there were hundreds of tests, so what we saw was not all. 

One interesting part in her tests was that group dynamic and how it changed, when male lions came along. It didn´t make it always easy and females seemed to take suddenly a step backwards when more nervous than with other females :) Hyenas were for sure better in working as a group. Another interesting thing was tests with lions in South Africa, those lions obviously have good conditions or then not too many generations in captivity. I mean they seemed to have strong hunting instinct there. What I briefly checked, captivity has effects in big cats and one thing going off is certain hunting instinct and skills. 

But we will see, let the best cat win Wink  But if we have to settle with result, that impossible to find clear winner, that is not so dangerous Grin We can still all maybe learn something new about these animals and that is at least for me the most valuable thing.
"But what comes to size of the brains, that is far from clear thing. Alone it, that the birds manage to do many quite complex tests among many other things proves that, that size is not as important as many other things. There is a lot of information and studies about it."

Hm, as far as i know there is a moderate correlation between brain size and intelligence (as least if you compare related species). The influence of brain size should not be overestimated, but also not underestimated. 

"What comes to tigers and lions in comparison, who cares if it would happen to be so, that lions would happen to be smarter in some way? Would that make tigers suddenly losers for someone? And if another way, so what? I am always amused in a way, if I notice emotional approach to some matter and then a lot of effort to undermine something just because kind of terrified, that we might get a result, which would be "wrong". 

Well, most of us are somewhat biased and we take this theme as a sort of duel between our favourite animals (you too). And its therefore quite understandable that we have tendencies to highlight what is in our favor and to discard the opposite. And this applies to both sides (you too). And for example it is ok to appreciate the study, but it is also legitimate to reject it. And I think its not fair to indicate that this critique is something emotional, motivated by some kind of fear. I suggest not to implant our own thoughts into the minds of other people :-)    

"So main focus should be in tolerance and avoiding emotional debates." vs. "And I don´t mind, that you find it amusing, I find this whole conversation in same way :)"

Thank you for your exemplary approach to communication :-)  

Of course brain size isn´t irrelevant. But it is not only thing there and as you say, it can´t be underestimated or overestimated. 

And what comes to biased, I really couldn´t care less what results we get. For me it is indifferent which big cat or animal is most intelligent or is any. But it is true, that sometimes I have fun too in conversations like this, no denying in that. Tigers for instance are one of my favorite animals by far. But if I see something, which looks like to be biased, of course I ask questions, if something can be proved or is it just some myth which can´t be confirmed in any reasonable way. In this conversation we are in situation, where not too much can be proven to one direction or another, of course it is ok to like or dislike something, no problem :) 

I mentioned emotional, because that happens too even in this forum time to time. 

And you are welcome what comes to exemplary approach to communication, I just followed the lead Wink

Anyway I hope, that people put here sources for information and we all can see original texts.

Well, thats your statement :-). And everybody is free to judge whether or not you use some manipulation in your posts :-)
Of course, that is why it is important to put all sources for everyone to see. I have seen opinions like "tigers are 16% more intelligent than lions, because their brain volume is 16% bigger Grin It is always funny to see how people try to make complicated matters to look like simple Grin As said before, intelligence of animals is interesting thing and it is quite difficult to say too much before there is more research.

" I have seen opinions like "tigers are 16% more intelligent than lions, because their brain volume is 16% bigger" 

Source? :-) 

BTW I´m afraid you didnt understand the real meaning of my post (70), but that doesnt matter...  

Source was a distant memory from many threads, which have given me good laughs :) And I am happy, that it is just distance memory Grin

And we are all sometimes afraid, but it is not so dangerous Wink Just part of life.
"that is why it is important to put all sources for everyone to see" vs. "Source was a distant memory from many threads" 

Yes, of course... :-) 
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