There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
08-28-2018, 10:18 PM( This post was last modified: 08-28-2018, 10:20 PM by AlexE )
(08-28-2018, 09:56 PM)Pckts Wrote: @AlexE "Google will help you. Only your fakes are "true"..." Burden of proof is on you my friend, you posted that account and made a claim/opinion.
My "fakes" aren't fakes but either opinions based off of my first hand experience or accounts with links attached. I'm fairly confident that most here know that I'm not presenting accounts without the links and due credit given to the person deserving of it.
I thought I’d write this just to clear up some of the relationships between the dominant predators here at Londolozi.
Whilst spotted hyena versus lion conflict is widely documented across Africa, the reality is that different areas and ecosystems vary in both the numbers of the top predators they sustain, as well as the way in which those predators interact with each other.
The commonly held belief is that hyenas travel in packs all the time and are constantly battling lions for the kills the lions have made. This is certainly true in some parts of Africa – although still dependant on fluctuation predator populations – but at Londolozi, the behaviour of the hyenas in particular is not of the type generally seen on the Discovery channel.
Adult hyenas across Africa adopt different strategies to successfully obtain food.
When not at a den-site, hyenas are most likely to be viewed singly here. It is a common question from guests, when viewing a hyena loping along by itself, “Don’t they move in packs?”, but for the hyenas, that would be less than efficient, and the primary reason is the number of leopards on Londolozi. Let’s look at this a bit more closely.
For hyenas to compete with lions over a kill, they need to outnumber them significantly. A common number thrown out is four hyenas needed for every lioness; more if a big male lion is present. Where that number came from I can’t say for sure, although it sounds like a reasonable figure upon which to base the debate. Far more factors are at play than just a simple numbers game, but for arguments sake, lets take the 4:1 ratio as gospel.
Say, then, the Ntsevu Pride killed a buffalo in concert with Matshipiri males. Looking solely at the numbers, you’d need in excess of 30 hyenas to drive the lions away from their kill. Having done so, the clan would then need to share those spoils between thirty of them. There more than likely wouldn’t be quite enough food to go around, and the chances are high that at least some of the clan would be injured in the brawl, possibly even killed.
Serious lion-hyena interaction is not often witnessed on Londolozi. The hyena population finds it prudent to look for food elsewhere, rather than trying to drive lions off their kills. Photograph by James Tyrrell
So the main factors that count against hyenas taking on lions are:
a) They need big numbers.
b) It’s dangerous.
c) They’ll have to share if they manage to commandeer the kill.
All of the above are very valid arguments why it might just be easier for hyenas to look elsewhere for their food if they don’t necessarily have to take on a pride, and fortunately at Londolozi, that elsewhere comes largely in the form of the local leopard population.
The Mashaba female snarls angrily at a marauding hyena that had just stolen the remains of her kill, but she stops short of physically attacking it. Photograph by Amy Attenborough
Leopards, as many people are aware, are solitary predators, relying entirely upon themselves to hunt and obtain food. With no pride to rely on, it stands to reason that any serious injury sustained by one of these cats that hampered its hunting efforts could endanger its life. Leopards are therefore notoriously conflict-averse, preferring to avoid direct physical contact in stand-offs with each other, but in particular with larger and stronger predators like hyenas.
A hyena drags the remains of an impala kill back to its den to feed its cubs. The hyena had in fact killed this impala itself! Photograph by James Tyrrell
When it comes to defending a kill, a leopard will back off over 90% of the time when a hyena is rushing in to claim it, knowing that it is far better to seek out another meal than attempt to fight the hyena away and potentially get hurt. That other 10% is dependent on a number of factors; size of leopard, hunger of leopard, size of hyena etc. One can make a number of predictions based on prior observations but it’s always hard to say with 100% certainty what’s going to happen. I remember watching the old Camp Pan male leopard defend a kudu bull carcass against three huge hyenas. The leopard was long past his prime and in serious need of a meal. He happened upon the kudu bull (who we believe was killed by another male), and considered it worth the risk to try and drive the hyenas away, as he desperately needed some sustenance. He managed it for a while, but the whoops of the clan summoned more individuals, and when they outnumbered the leopard five to one he eventually had to concede defeat and move off.
Although the den-site forms the foundation of a hyena clan, with numerous adult females and cubs inhabiting it, adults still head off in different directions to forage as individuals come nightfall.
Knowing how leopards will generally surrender their kills, hyenas find it most profitable to forage as individuals, because if they happen to come across a leopard with an unhoisted carcass, they will more than likely be able to appropriate it for themselves without too much danger, and they won’t have to share it when they do.
Although multiple hyenas will sometimes converge on the same leopard kill, attracted by the smell, they generally set out for the evening patrol as individuals, which is how we usually encounter them.
Hyena clans are tightly bound social units, demarcating and defending territories much like lion prides. When it comes to finding food on Londolozi however, it’s far better for the hyenas to go it alone.
I'm not against reality. I'm against lies and disinformation. Londolozi, aficageographic, kruger sightings, national geographic does not inspire confidence. I like the amateur videos and another wildlife sources.
08-28-2018, 10:34 PM( This post was last modified: 08-28-2018, 10:37 PM by Pckts )
(08-28-2018, 10:18 PM)AlexE Wrote:
(08-28-2018, 09:56 PM)Pckts Wrote: @AlexE "Google will help you. Only your fakes are "true"..." Burden of proof is on you my friend, you posted that account and made a claim/opinion.
My "fakes" aren't fakes but either opinions based off of my first hand experience or accounts with links attached. I'm fairly confident that most here know that I'm not presenting accounts without the links and due credit given to the person deserving of it.
I thought I’d write this just to clear up some of the relationships between the dominant predators here at Londolozi.
Whilst spotted hyena versus lion conflict is widely documented across Africa, the reality is that different areas and ecosystems vary in both the numbers of the top predators they sustain, as well as the way in which those predators interact with each other.
The commonly held belief is that hyenas travel in packs all the time and are constantly battling lions for the kills the lions have made. This is certainly true in some parts of Africa – although still dependant on fluctuation predator populations – but at Londolozi, the behaviour of the hyenas in particular is not of the type generally seen on the Discovery channel.
Adult hyenas across Africa adopt different strategies to successfully obtain food.
When not at a den-site, hyenas are most likely to be viewed singly here. It is a common question from guests, when viewing a hyena loping along by itself, “Don’t they move in packs?”, but for the hyenas, that would be less than efficient, and the primary reason is the number of leopards on Londolozi. Let’s look at this a bit more closely.
For hyenas to compete with lions over a kill, they need to outnumber them significantly. A common number thrown out is four hyenas needed for every lioness; more if a big male lion is present. Where that number came from I can’t say for sure, although it sounds like a reasonable figure upon which to base the debate. Far more factors are at play than just a simple numbers game, but for arguments sake, lets take the 4:1 ratio as gospel.
Say, then, the Ntsevu Pride killed a buffalo in concert with Matshipiri males. Looking solely at the numbers, you’d need in excess of 30 hyenas to drive the lions away from their kill. Having done so, the clan would then need to share those spoils between thirty of them. There more than likely wouldn’t be quite enough food to go around, and the chances are high that at least some of the clan would be injured in the brawl, possibly even killed.
Serious lion-hyena interaction is not often witnessed on Londolozi. The hyena population finds it prudent to look for food elsewhere, rather than trying to drive lions off their kills. Photograph by James Tyrrell
So the main factors that count against hyenas taking on lions are:
a) They need big numbers.
b) It’s dangerous.
c) They’ll have to share if they manage to commandeer the kill.
All of the above are very valid arguments why it might just be easier for hyenas to look elsewhere for their food if they don’t necessarily have to take on a pride, and fortunately at Londolozi, that elsewhere comes largely in the form of the local leopard population.
The Mashaba female snarls angrily at a marauding hyena that had just stolen the remains of her kill, but she stops short of physically attacking it. Photograph by Amy Attenborough
Leopards, as many people are aware, are solitary predators, relying entirely upon themselves to hunt and obtain food. With no pride to rely on, it stands to reason that any serious injury sustained by one of these cats that hampered its hunting efforts could endanger its life. Leopards are therefore notoriously conflict-averse, preferring to avoid direct physical contact in stand-offs with each other, but in particular with larger and stronger predators like hyenas.
A hyena drags the remains of an impala kill back to its den to feed its cubs. The hyena had in fact killed this impala itself! Photograph by James Tyrrell
When it comes to defending a kill, a leopard will back off over 90% of the time when a hyena is rushing in to claim it, knowing that it is far better to seek out another meal than attempt to fight the hyena away and potentially get hurt. That other 10% is dependent on a number of factors; size of leopard, hunger of leopard, size of hyena etc. One can make a number of predictions based on prior observations but it’s always hard to say with 100% certainty what’s going to happen. I remember watching the old Camp Pan male leopard defend a kudu bull carcass against three huge hyenas. The leopard was long past his prime and in serious need of a meal. He happened upon the kudu bull (who we believe was killed by another male), and considered it worth the risk to try and drive the hyenas away, as he desperately needed some sustenance. He managed it for a while, but the whoops of the clan summoned more individuals, and when they outnumbered the leopard five to one he eventually had to concede defeat and move off.
Although the den-site forms the foundation of a hyena clan, with numerous adult females and cubs inhabiting it, adults still head off in different directions to forage as individuals come nightfall.
Knowing how leopards will generally surrender their kills, hyenas find it most profitable to forage as individuals, because if they happen to come across a leopard with an unhoisted carcass, they will more than likely be able to appropriate it for themselves without too much danger, and they won’t have to share it when they do.
Although multiple hyenas will sometimes converge on the same leopard kill, attracted by the smell, they generally set out for the evening patrol as individuals, which is how we usually encounter them.
Hyena clans are tightly bound social units, demarcating and defending territories much like lion prides. When it comes to finding food on Londolozi however, it’s far better for the hyenas to go it alone.
I'm not against reality. I'm against lies and disinformation. Londolozi, aficageographic, kruger sightings, national geographic does not inspire confidence. I like the amateur videos and another wildlife sources.
If you're against lies and disinformation, wouldn't you take a Londolozi blog written by James Tyrrell, who has first hand experience with African wildlife
His profile below and a link to all his photos
Profile http://blog.londolozi.com/profile/james/
Photos http://store.londolozi.com/gallery/photographer/james
over images with no account or source to back them up and a handwritten quote of a menagerie account that has nothing to do with wildlife interaction nor a source to back it?
08-28-2018, 11:03 PM( This post was last modified: 08-28-2018, 11:06 PM by AlexE )
(08-28-2018, 10:34 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(08-28-2018, 10:18 PM)AlexE Wrote:
(08-28-2018, 09:56 PM)Pckts Wrote: @AlexE "Google will help you. Only your fakes are "true"..." Burden of proof is on you my friend, you posted that account and made a claim/opinion.
My "fakes" aren't fakes but either opinions based off of my first hand experience or accounts with links attached. I'm fairly confident that most here know that I'm not presenting accounts without the links and due credit given to the person deserving of it.
I thought I’d write this just to clear up some of the relationships between the dominant predators here at Londolozi.
Whilst spotted hyena versus lion conflict is widely documented across Africa, the reality is that different areas and ecosystems vary in both the numbers of the top predators they sustain, as well as the way in which those predators interact with each other.
The commonly held belief is that hyenas travel in packs all the time and are constantly battling lions for the kills the lions have made. This is certainly true in some parts of Africa – although still dependant on fluctuation predator populations – but at Londolozi, the behaviour of the hyenas in particular is not of the type generally seen on the Discovery channel.
Adult hyenas across Africa adopt different strategies to successfully obtain food.
When not at a den-site, hyenas are most likely to be viewed singly here. It is a common question from guests, when viewing a hyena loping along by itself, “Don’t they move in packs?”, but for the hyenas, that would be less than efficient, and the primary reason is the number of leopards on Londolozi. Let’s look at this a bit more closely.
For hyenas to compete with lions over a kill, they need to outnumber them significantly. A common number thrown out is four hyenas needed for every lioness; more if a big male lion is present. Where that number came from I can’t say for sure, although it sounds like a reasonable figure upon which to base the debate. Far more factors are at play than just a simple numbers game, but for arguments sake, lets take the 4:1 ratio as gospel.
Say, then, the Ntsevu Pride killed a buffalo in concert with Matshipiri males. Looking solely at the numbers, you’d need in excess of 30 hyenas to drive the lions away from their kill. Having done so, the clan would then need to share those spoils between thirty of them. There more than likely wouldn’t be quite enough food to go around, and the chances are high that at least some of the clan would be injured in the brawl, possibly even killed.
Serious lion-hyena interaction is not often witnessed on Londolozi. The hyena population finds it prudent to look for food elsewhere, rather than trying to drive lions off their kills. Photograph by James Tyrrell
So the main factors that count against hyenas taking on lions are:
a) They need big numbers.
b) It’s dangerous.
c) They’ll have to share if they manage to commandeer the kill.
All of the above are very valid arguments why it might just be easier for hyenas to look elsewhere for their food if they don’t necessarily have to take on a pride, and fortunately at Londolozi, that elsewhere comes largely in the form of the local leopard population.
The Mashaba female snarls angrily at a marauding hyena that had just stolen the remains of her kill, but she stops short of physically attacking it. Photograph by Amy Attenborough
Leopards, as many people are aware, are solitary predators, relying entirely upon themselves to hunt and obtain food. With no pride to rely on, it stands to reason that any serious injury sustained by one of these cats that hampered its hunting efforts could endanger its life. Leopards are therefore notoriously conflict-averse, preferring to avoid direct physical contact in stand-offs with each other, but in particular with larger and stronger predators like hyenas.
A hyena drags the remains of an impala kill back to its den to feed its cubs. The hyena had in fact killed this impala itself! Photograph by James Tyrrell
When it comes to defending a kill, a leopard will back off over 90% of the time when a hyena is rushing in to claim it, knowing that it is far better to seek out another meal than attempt to fight the hyena away and potentially get hurt. That other 10% is dependent on a number of factors; size of leopard, hunger of leopard, size of hyena etc. One can make a number of predictions based on prior observations but it’s always hard to say with 100% certainty what’s going to happen. I remember watching the old Camp Pan male leopard defend a kudu bull carcass against three huge hyenas. The leopard was long past his prime and in serious need of a meal. He happened upon the kudu bull (who we believe was killed by another male), and considered it worth the risk to try and drive the hyenas away, as he desperately needed some sustenance. He managed it for a while, but the whoops of the clan summoned more individuals, and when they outnumbered the leopard five to one he eventually had to concede defeat and move off.
Although the den-site forms the foundation of a hyena clan, with numerous adult females and cubs inhabiting it, adults still head off in different directions to forage as individuals come nightfall.
Knowing how leopards will generally surrender their kills, hyenas find it most profitable to forage as individuals, because if they happen to come across a leopard with an unhoisted carcass, they will more than likely be able to appropriate it for themselves without too much danger, and they won’t have to share it when they do.
Although multiple hyenas will sometimes converge on the same leopard kill, attracted by the smell, they generally set out for the evening patrol as individuals, which is how we usually encounter them.
Hyena clans are tightly bound social units, demarcating and defending territories much like lion prides. When it comes to finding food on Londolozi however, it’s far better for the hyenas to go it alone.
I'm not against reality. I'm against lies and disinformation. Londolozi, aficageographic, kruger sightings, national geographic does not inspire confidence. I like the amateur videos and another wildlife sources.
If you're against lies and disinformation, wouldn't you take a Londolozi blog written by James Tyrrell, who has first hand experience with African wildlife
His profile below and a link to all his photos
Profile http://blog.londolozi.com/profile/james/
Photos http://store.londolozi.com/gallery/photographer/james
over images with no account or source to back them up and a handwritten quote of a menagerie account that has nothing to do with wildlife interaction nor a source to back it?
You will not see prey of leopard who larger than a young impala on londolozi...... It's not all..... I hope you got what i meant.
Democrat Peru, Ind., Feb. 6. A battle to the death, amid the roaring of lions, tigers, jaguars, hyenas and bears, occurred in the rehearing area at one Hagenbeck - Wallace circus winter quarters a few days ago. The combatants were a big Bengal tiger and a young leopard, and the latter still lives, having clawed out the vitals of the larger beast. The conflict lasted fully thirty minutes and was witnessed by thirty men, all of whom were powerless to separate the combatants. The big tiger was the one seen In Hagenbeck's show at the St. Louis exposition and had always been hard to control. The tiger was valued at $1,000. Yesterday, for the first time this winter, the trainer, Philip Casting, attempted a rehearsal. All the animals used In the big act were brought into the arena and all seemed as tame as pets except the tiger. Immediately on reaching the arena the big brute became vicious and attempted to strike the trainer, who forced the animal Into a corner. Casting then went ahead with the rehearsal. As soon as his back was turned the tiger struck the leopard, which sat on a box near by. The smaller animals struck back and then the battle began. Twice the leopard fastened Its teeth In the tiger's neck and was thrown off. Anticipating a fierce struggle, Casting hurried the other animals out of the arena and then gave his attention to the fighting beasts. The tiger sprang at him and he was forced to quit the arena in order to escape with his life. The leopard tried to get away but was not quick enough. The tiger tossed the leopard In the air a couple of times and beat the smaller animal with Its large paws overthe head almost to Insensibility but finally the, smaller animal got its second wind and fought both ferociousness that was remarkable. While being held down the leopard clawed the tiger's breast until there were great wide gashes in the big ani mal, which soon began to weaken. Continuing its clawing, the leopard, finished its enemy by tearing out the tiger's vital organs. Then the leopard, torn and bleeding, fell exhausted beside the dead body of its adversary. The trainer and other attaches of the circus say the growls and howls and howls of the other animals during the battle were terrific and the excitement was intense.
this is our 7 year old african lion that has been a main attraction for our zoo for many years. few days ago a jaguar leaped a fence into the lions enclosure that he never knewed it was a lion enclosure until the lion charged at him. our guest witnessed a battle between the 2 cats that lasted for a few minutes before we were able to separate them. fortunately both cat lived. the lion however, needed medical treatment and will likely loose his right eye due to severe clawing.
08-29-2018, 01:56 AM( This post was last modified: 08-29-2018, 02:11 AM by AlexE )
Leopard almost kills hyena
I very much doubt that hyenas were not killed by leopards for the last 10 years. Or very small amount of leopards in Africa. Very often I see that large good leopards are killed by Americans. Even baboons, jackals, dogs are very rare prey of leopards in Africa. Very doubtful.
And you tell me that your londolozi is normal site/channel?
The following 1 user Likes AlexE's post:1 user Likes AlexE's post • Rishi
08-29-2018, 08:26 PM( This post was last modified: 08-29-2018, 09:03 PM by Rishi )
Many other cases of inter-specific competition involving lions have also been recorded. Along the Lower Sabi Road a lioness was seen chasing a hyaena for almost 100 yards before catching it and proceeding to devour it. The hyaena was pursued for no apparent reason — there being no kill, nor was it worrying the lion. Although hyaenas are often killed by lions when mobbing a feeding pride they are rarely eaten in such situations. Several years ago a cheetah was cornered by two lionesses along the Nahpe Road and severely mauled before it managed to escape.
During the period under discussion lions were reported to have killed 39 hyaenas, 6 leopards, 2 cheetahs, 12 iackals, 2 civet cats, 2 honey badgers, 1 caracal and two crocodiles. Many of these victims were partially eaten.
Since the proclamation in 1898 of the original Sabi Reserve however, only about a dozen cases of man-eating have been recorded in the area that comprises the present Kruger Park.
I would like to find information from credible sources about leopard predation on predators or leopard other predators interaction. Leopard often kills other predators. I liked the information about tiger bear interaction in Russia. It's bad that in Africa there are no good Russian wildlife researchers or another.
The following 1 user Likes AlexE's post:1 user Likes AlexE's post • Rishi
Retired professor in engineering at the North-west University, Peet Van Schalkwyk, was delighted to have come across this sighting at De Laporte Waterhole in Kruger.
*This image is copyright of its original author
Peet told Latetsightings.com “We were watching elephants, zebras, giraffes and impala drinking water at the waterhole from about 11:00 to 13:00. Many vehicles would come and go during that time. We were about to leave when a lady told us that there is a leopard hiding in the bush and he was spooking the impala herds every now and then. He had however been unsuccessful the whole morning."
*This image is copyright of its original author
"We decided to wait and at about 14:00 he finally caught an impala. A number of impala were in the shallow water of a cemented dam. The leopard chased and one impala slipped in the water. The leopard grabbed it by the neck and dragged it towards a tree, but along came a hyena and when it saw the leopard with the impala, it chased the leopard away. The impala was not dead and it got away in the confusion. The hyena rescued the impala by accident!"
WATCH
We were extremely excited and knew that we have witnessed something special. This was a first for us. I witnessed a cheetah kill before but never a leopard kill. It is worth it to wait and spend time at waterholes. My wife Lynn took some pictures while I was videoing. My canon video camera has the function to include 3 seconds of material so that is why I could manage to get the whole incident on tape”.
#470: And the hyena's face was pawed by the leopard it chased away from its false kill...
As for the first video, in front of a young leopard, the dog barked, but the tail constantly between its legs.
Of course, but a defensive swipe on the way out is instinctual, It does little to deter the determined Hyena. Hyena are actually built like battering rams, they are meant to take frontal attacks while they charge in, their skeletal structure and musculature are built for it. It's why you will see Hyena bull rush in compared to a Cat, especially a Leopard which is built to grapple.
The 2nd point, that Dog is lucky to be alive, a feral dog with an injury should have no business in the Jungle, it was lucky the Leopard didn't push the attack but like the Leopard taking a swipe, if an animal can protect itself, it will do so, especially if it has no where to run. But I have little doubt that if the Leopardess wanted to push the issue, you'd have a dead dog.
About #475: what you told is very interesting. The contact between the hyena and the leopard was very short. But despite of this, the leopard had just the time, in a split second, to give just one paw to the hyena's face. And the cut is impressive ! Even if, as you say, the hyena are used to override this.
But I'm agree with you. You're a true animals psychologist !
The following 1 user Likes Spalea's post:1 user Likes Spalea's post • Pckts
Felids Interactions - Interspecific Conflicts
