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Eyes on or hands on? A discussion of human interference

India sanjay Offline
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Don't you feel if you or someone who quote the above posts just to reply make the thread longer to scroll, unnecessarily though ?
You can just tag him and start replying. Its for everyone not for only you
I hope this help
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Canada Shardul Offline
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@Pckts

How can you even compare T-24 with T42? Once again, you are oversimplifying and mixing things.

First of all, T-24 wasn't a threat to all people per se, he was a threat to people on foot (rangers and villagers). Not tourist vehicles. In fact, he was very calm around tourist vehicles. The first time I saw him, he was sleeping while surrounded by 20 vehicles, absolutely unperturbed. The second time, he was along the side of the road, feeding on a sambar and as the vehicles kept piling on, he abandoned the kill and started resting at a distance (disgusting behavior by the jeep drivers). I now think it's his superficial calm behaviour around tourist vehicles that is driving this misconception. They must be thinking, how can this be a dangerous tiger when he is so calm around us? But thats the thing, tigers mostly attack people on foot. When was the last  time you heard a tourist being attacked in a jeep? 

T-24 attacked people after stalking them with an intention to kill, with a clean bite to the neck, just like he would do to a prey and also ate 2 of them. A tiger acting in self defence will simply make a paw swipe and run away. Tigers are opportunistic killers. A man eating tiger will not pounce on every human it sees, they sometimes go a long period without making any human kill, even if the opportunity is there. Ustad was a temperamental, unpredictable tiger who killed at intervals and so was given a long rope. The rangers and the villagers have lived their lives among wild tigers, they know how to keep a safe distance. Believe me, they do value their own lives.

T-42 OTOH, is the exact opposite. He used to charge at tourist vehicles initially when his area was opened for tourism. He hadn't seen any vehicles before, hence charged. But those were mock charges aimed at drving away the vehicles. He doesn't even do that now. He has never attacked or killed a human, neither on foot, nor in a vehicle. How can you compare him with Ustad is beyond me.
 
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United States Pckts Offline
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( This post was last modified: 07-21-2015, 03:45 AM by Pckts )

Quote:  
 
@Shardul
T-42 and T-24 are very similar cases, both were captured by man and both became aggressive afterwards, both attacked men as well when they were on foot, T42 has attacked men on foot btw, i posted one of the accounts and the images on another page on this forum.  T-42 may have charged vehicles as well but that is simply back to the original point that all big cats have their own personality and behave differently.

I'm not sure what we are debating at this point, I don't really get a feeling where your stance is on this matter.
First it was on the idea that we can't view big cats like madla and hairyfoot then its on jeeps then its on man eaters?
Its hard for me to grasp what I'm debating against you, because I definitely agree with a lot of your points and the ones I don't I have stated my points and evidence behind them.

For instance, your jeep argument http://wildfact.com/forum/topic-male-tig...anthambore
Check it out, I agree completely, just read the read and images i posted.

Here is the account of T42's attack on men
"Of Ranthambhore is notorious for charging and is the famous male that chased a jeep for over a mile.



23rd June, 2013

Asha Ram Berwa s/o Gayarsi Berwa, aged 22 was attacked & mauled by Fateh or T 42 (Male of Qualji), when he was searching for his buffalo near some farm around the Devpura Dam. Currently recuperating in a hospital and out of danger.

A classic case of man-animal conflict. Why don't the authorities take measures to stop cattle grazing in the forest?"

A different instance of T42 attacking
"T42 is scary and one should be wary of him. There have been many instances of his attack and in fact if you read my Qualji post, the driver Reddy's jeep suffered an attack by him in which the metal of the bonnet got ripped. And I wanted to meet him head-on. I might squeeze a chance to go again to Qualji in this trip."

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/travelogue...in-14.html


And the thread page
http://wildfact.com/forum/topic-man-eaters



and lastly, I agree with attacks in side jeeps, they seem to be relatively safe but obviously not completely.



Also, who is this female that is attacking in Ranth and why isn't as publicized?
"Two villagers were attacked by a tigress in Kahndaar Range of Ranthambore. It seems they had ventured in forest despite warnings of presence of big cat in area. It is speculated that tigress T30 is involved in this incident, clear identity has not been established though. 14.05.15"
http://www.tigerwalah.com/latest-from-ranthambore/

Edit: Lets also move this discussion somewhere else so it doesn't interrupt the thread any further.
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United States tigerluver Offline
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( This post was last modified: 07-21-2015, 07:00 AM by tigerluver )

Merged @Shardul and @Pckts . Thank you for the civilized discussion.
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Netherlands peter Offline
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( This post was last modified: 07-22-2015, 01:53 AM by peter )

Agreed.

There's one more thing to do. The aim of a discussion should be a conclusion shared by those who participated. A summary of the facts also would be appreciated. Remember most forum visitors are readers, not posters.
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Canada Shardul Offline
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@Pckts

I don't know why I am not able to explain to you, but this is my last post on this topic as I simply don't have the time and energy for a prolonged back and forth discussion. 

I had an objection to your claiming that human interference (or harrassment or invasion of tiger space or whatever you want to call it) only was to blame for the Ustad episode. I tried to explain you that Ustad killed four people with a clean bite to the neck, which denotes an intention to kill and eat, the classic sign of a man-eater.  Proven by the fact that he ate two of his victims and was going to eat the third one if the body hadn't been retrieved immediately. This is what made t24's case different. Such attacks cannot be blamed on "harrasment" by humans, which you were alluding to. 

You lumped all tiger attacks under one category. You compared t24 with t42 and now another tigress because they attacked some villagers. All tiger attacks on humans aren't the same. When I was talking about attacks, I meant attacks where the tiger intends to eat the human after killing. There has always been a lot of man animal conflict cases in Indian parks simply because of the human pressure. Humans inadvertently venture close to tigers along park boundaries and when this happens, the tiger gets startled and attacks the human in self defence. Such tigers do not view humans as prey, and hence do not deliver a neck bite. Which is the primary reason many such victims manage to survive. And even if the victim dies, the tiger will not be called a man eater, but simply a man killer. Thats why your t24 and t42 comparison was flawed.

This discussion started because you claimed that T-24 was being constantly harrassed by tourists, forest rangers and villagers and hence was forced to turn maneater. To which I responded by saying that tigers can choose to avoid humans and gave the example of hairyfoot. You tried to conter this by mentioning the camera trap image of hairyfoot, which basically proved my point. And then you talked about how much easier it is to track tigers nowadays compared to earlier, as evidenced by the first Tadoba tiger sighting. To me, it is simply because there are more tigers now than before and more humans visiting reserves than before. This debate about whether tigers can avoid humans or not was a separate discussion and off topic here and hence I chose not to continue it further.

Lastly, there is a constant theme to your posts regarding all kinds of man-animal conflict, which goes like this:

human tiger interaction = human harrass tiger = tiger attack/kill human = human fault

I don't agree with this and find it too simplistic, which is what we were debating, or atleast I was.

Hope I have made my stance clear now.
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United States Pckts Offline
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( This post was last modified: 07-22-2015, 10:06 PM by Pckts )

@Shardul

Ok, now I get a clear idea of what you're saying. So like I told you already, the only thing I "lumped" ustad and t42 together with was being tranq'd by humans and then proceeding to attack humans. Thats why the comparision is correct.
We have already had the debate on "man eaters" compared to "man killers" feel free to read it on the "man eaters" thread.
I agree with both classifications, but that was never what was being discussed.

"This discussion started because you claimed that T-24 was being constantly harrassed by tourists, forest rangers and villagers and hence was forced to turn maneater."
I "claimed" none of that, I THINK that the all of those factors a long with being tranq'd incorrectly, waking up mid operation, collared or "harrassed" all help make ustad and T42 agressive towards people.

"Lastly, there is a constant theme to your posts regarding all kinds of man-animal conflict, which goes like this:"
"human tiger interaction = human harrass tiger = tiger attack/kill human = human fault"

"I don't agree with this and find it too simplistic, which is what we were debating, or atleast I was."

You are free to have your opinion, but I'll give mine on the matter.
I don't "blame a human" when a tiger  attacks, I "blame a human" depending on the scenerio. So to try and lump that excuse in to every single tiger attack in history is wrong, but to deny the facts of these specific attacks is also wrong.

Human beings are the only creatures to have "laws" and a sense of intitlement.
Tigers don't live by these "laws" they don't go around destroying our habitat, taking our food, hunting us to extinction, capturing us and using us as entertainment, stealing our children from us and selling them to the highest bidder, taking our bones to cure imaginary medicine and list goes on.

We lived for thousands of years side by side without hunting them close to extinction and conflicts happen, but the idea that we have the right to capture all because they make us unsafe is completely false. If that is the case than all sharks need be removed from the water and any animal needs to be removed from their habitat. There are 7 billion people in this world, there are 3,000 tigers.

One last remark, if a tiger sneaks into a village home, snatches a baby and eats it, is the Tiger to blame?
Yes, but only because its a predator and it is doing what predators do.
Is a human to blame?
Yes, only because it is living in the same place as a predator and to expect the predator to not be a predator is foolish.

But heres the difference, the tiger doesn't get to dictate which humans are removed from Its habitat, but humans get to decide which tigers are removed?
That is where my resentment towards some humans come from.

 

 
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United States Pckts Offline
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http://www.ranthambhoreguides.com/tigers/sundari-2

T-17 | Sundari |


*This image is copyright of its original author

About the tiger

It was a real inherit of Great Machhali- she was very popular tigress from her childhood due to her boldness! That’s why she was never shy to human being whether they are on foot or on vehicles as tourists. She comes from the family of legendary tigress Machhali who ruled the most beautiful area of Ranthambhore Tiger Reserve for more than 10 years. She was one of the three sisters from Machhali’s 5th and last litter (T-17, T-18, and T-19). She was considered a queen of Ranthambhore after Her Mother.
She was born in year 2006 and was raised by her mother Machhali. She was given a perfect training to survive in wild. T-17 started claiming her dominance in lake area in very early age when she was about 18 months old in Dec 2007 while her other two sisters (T-18, and T-19) stayed with the mother, Finally by the summer of 2008, she becomes totally independent, her both sisters took another few months to separate from their mother. In a sequence, she defeated both her sisters, then mother and declared herself the ruler of Ranthambhore fort and lakes area which is the best habitat for the tiger in all over the world.
T-18 was shifted to Sariska on 25/02/2009. T-19 moved towards hilly area of high point and Lahpur. Machhli left for Lakrda, but soon she was forced to leave that area too.
T-17 was radio collared by forest department in June 23, 2008 for 3 years. During that period she had mating with several male tigers like T-25 and T-28 etc, but she could not get pregnant. But meanwhile her sister, T-19 got pregnant and gave 3 cubs. After realizing the problem with her Smt Bina kak then forest minister of Rajasthan ordered for removal of the collar in November 2011 and she mated with T-28 and T-25 in a week time and she got pregnant. Evidently she got pregnant by T-25

*This image is copyright of its original author

After 3.5 month, she delivered her first litter of 3 cubs. Who were first sighted on 29 June 2012 by nature guide, Ram Singh Meena in zone no. 3.

*This image is copyright of its original author

She was looking after them very well but she had a huge threat for her cubs in lake area, that was from her own sisters T-19 and her 20 months old cubs (2 male -1 female). To protect them from the imerging threat to life of cubs, she decided to leave the territory and shifted towards peripheral area and territory of T-25 a male tiger, who was the father of her cubs.
She was seen several times in Kachida, Bhadlav area several times but one day she suddenly disappeared. No one has any idea that what happened to her?
But fortunately her cubs were alive, and about to die due to hunger. Than the responsibility was taken up by forest department to look after them, feed them and keep them alive in wild.
And then a miracle happened, T-25 a male tiger who was probably their father came forward as their guardian and started taking care of them. T-25 had done this to 2 orphaned cubs of - 5, Bina-1 and Bina-2 as well as.Both they are in Sariska now.
Thus the all 3 cubs of T-17 survived and were trained to live in wild by their father. These three cubs now has become sub adults and known such as T-73 (Female cub), T-74 (male cub) and T-75 (male cub).
T-17's disappearance is still a mystery till today.......





Here we see a possible interference with a tigress' ability to be impregnated after being collared.
Is this the case always, No, could this be a possible risk to weigh in before collaring certain individuals, yes.
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
-Oscar Wilde
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United States tigerluver Offline
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If T25 took care of his male cub too in this second litter, the theory that he was protecting potential mates in the past goes out the window. Ranthambore tigers seem special in terms of their social lifestyle. We've had males tolerate other male's cubs and males share territory with their sons. So pleasantly odd.
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United States Pckts Offline
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Check out that site, its very up to date with the most recent sightings of all the Ranthambhore males and females, where they were sighted and when. I'm amazed just how many individuals they have, it must be a huge park.
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
-Oscar Wilde
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United States Pckts Offline
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( This post was last modified: 05-09-2016, 10:55 PM by Pckts )

When we hear about Radio Collaring of tigers - these are the questions that comes to my mind, you may add yours in the comments section.

- Why is it that a study , which even after years of implementation, is not yet complete.

- If some vital information has been collected after years of radio collaring, where and how was it implemented.
Sarosh Lodhi‎
- why collaring is done mostly on adult tigers ( which has already established its territory), rather than on dispersing population.

- where it has been done due to monitoring of cattle kill, how has it prevented it.

- why the Govt should spend Lakhs n Lakhs of rupees on collaring but not increasing compensation in relocation of villages/ castle kill/ human kill, water management, prey base management, etc, all these have direct impact on conservation of this specie.

- does collaring (repeated tranquillising) a tiger, also not result in human movement near tigers thus making him loose their fear.

- why is it debated that a weightless/ flexible (made of soft material) collar. Something around the neck 24/7 will definitely irritate any tiger ( refer case of challenger from Bandhavgarh, also Gabbar from Tadoba who has been loosing territorial fights after collaring.

These are my personal views on the above topic. Collaring is a valid option in very few cases, shouldn't be used rampantly.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/...760507.cms


Great read, check it out.
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
-Oscar Wilde
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United States tigerluver Offline
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The issues with methodology stem with the black and white approach. We see it in our community and even in those in the field. 

In science, one can rarely say something is for certain, which people tend to do. 

Perhaps there should be a deadline of having collar data published. That way everyone can fairly assess whether the costs, the risks, and time was worth the data to not only those interested in behavior, but conservation.
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United States Pckts Offline
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I think to truly come to a conclusion would take years and many individuals. We would have to see a data bank that stemmed generations and individual results would need to be shown against the results the entire group.
I have long said that we don't need radio collaring to save tigers.
We know enough as it is.. Protect their forest, protect their corridors, stop hunting them and keep man/animal conflict to a minimum. But that being said, I certainly think that collaring them is serving the greater good, I think when they have a collar on them it is a deterrent for poachers or killers of their species. It's not fool proof, that's for sure but I think as of now, the impact it has on the species as a whole is something worth explorer. As long as I don't see a large increase in death or sickness from the collaring, I think its worth it to give them a try.
"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
-Oscar Wilde
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United Arab Emirates BorneanTiger Offline
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Bad news: almost 600 species of plants have been lost from the wild in the last 250 years, according to a comprehensive study: https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-48584515


Saint Helena Olive, apparently extinct since 2003, credit: Rebecca Cairn Wicks

*This image is copyright of its original author


One positive, though, was that some plants once though to have been extinct have been rediscovered, such as the Chilean crocus (credit: Richard Wilford):

*This image is copyright of its original author


Hibiscadelphus woodii in Kalalau Valley, Kaua'i, Hawaii, which was deemed extinct in 2016, before being rediscovered in January this year, credit: Ken Wood of the National Tropical Botanical Garden: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/envir...ia-drones/https://www.geek.com/tech/researchers-re...y-1783875/

*This image is copyright of its original author
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United Arab Emirates BorneanTiger Offline
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( This post was last modified: 06-21-2019, 03:48 PM by BorneanTiger )

Did poachers poison the carcasses of 3 elephants to kill 537 vultures (468 white-backed vultures, 17 white-headed vultures, 28 hooded vultures, all critically endangered, and 14 lappet-faced vultures and 10 cape vultures, also endangered) and 2 tawny eagles in northern Botswana, because vultures help rangers to track poaching activity by circling in the sky where there are dead animals?

White-backed vultures: https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/over-500...na-2056740

*This image is copyright of its original author


Cape vulture: https://edition.cnn.com/2019/06/21/afric...-intl-hnk/

*This image is copyright of its original author
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