There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
(05-30-2021, 11:14 PM)lionuk Wrote: The one of the two Ross males with the Subadult Birmingham Lions
Were there 3 subadult males in that group? I thought, for some reason there were the two, including the white male, and that BYM was with them as well. Is the 3rd male he is referring to as missing BYM? I wouldn't consider him a sub adult any longer, but that will be very concerning if that is who he is referring to as missing, and speculating he might be dead, especially given his history.
Yeah 3, there should be 1 white subadult, 2 tawny sub-adults and then BYM that make up the boys - the other tawny male and BYM are both missing in this clip
I am not sure why, but in my head I had that group consisting of 4 females, 3 brown and one white (one of whom was BYM's sister and one was White Dot), then the three males, one of whom was BYM. Regardless, it seems after the time they had pushing BYM out, in which Fabio really didn't take part in initially, but they have now jointly started making sure they are driven out, and starting at an even younger age. The females are currently helping to feed them, but at some point they need to return to the pride.
Hopefully the three of them, if the one brown sub is still with us, will make a coalition with BYM, his size would be really useful, and there is always strength in numbers. I would rather see him start out as a member of a group, than alone as he was when he bumped into the Mbiris. BYM and the white male seem really close, have for a really long time, and in my opinion the white male seems more of a leader than BYM does currently. All of the bashings BYM took from the Ross males seem to have injured his confidence I do believe, as they would to most any young male. There is always that one male who stands out, who refuses to be broken, like the video of the Crater males pushing out a young male recently, and that young male gave as good as he got, including charging those males when he had enough. He left after a bashing, but he had his head held high when he did.
I know there are countless prides with legendary pasts, including some who are no longer around like the Sparta Pride, but has there ever been a pride of lions who contributed so much to lion dominance, and continuing the bloodline as the Birmingham Pride. When you sit and think of all of the legendary lions to have come from this pride it is quite something.
(06-01-2021, 01:31 AM)Duco Ndona Wrote: I think they are just individual animals doing their best to survive. I've never been much of a fan of the whole lion royal dynasty stick.
I believe you just described Tigers to a T. But lions are, and always have been social animals. They do not tend to operate singularly, almost always sharing their spoils with their pride/coalition members, and even on occassion with other unknown lions. You don't have to believe in the whole lion dynasty schtick, as you put it, but to deny their social nature is a mistake in my opinion.
06-01-2021, 11:43 PM( This post was last modified: 06-02-2021, 02:32 AM by BA0701 )
(06-01-2021, 10:49 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: I am not denying their social structure. I just dont believe that one lion is more interesting just becouse of his or her bloodline.
They are just out there to survive afteral. And not to form nobility and empires.
I don't believe that either, but to deny the impact of an individual bloodline is also a mistake, denying the singular connection so many accomplished animals share. But, we're all free to enjoy these wonderful creatures as we see fit, you obviously enjoy them just as much, if not more, than the rest of us. Enjoy the lions!
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(06-02-2021, 12:29 AM)Tonpa Wrote: It's definitely cool to think about all the prides/coalitions that exist today that have some link back to the Birmingham pride
reminded me of this diagram/picture/thingy I saw on FB
*This image is copyright of its original author
Wow! That is precisely what I was talking about, and still I am amazed by the sheer extent of their reach. Thank you for sharing this, it is incredible to see laid out like this.
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(06-02-2021, 12:29 AM)Tonpa Wrote: It's definitely cool to think about all the prides/coalitions that exist today that have some link back to the Birmingham pride
reminded me of this diagram/picture/thingy I saw on FB
*This image is copyright of its original author
Wow! That is precisely what I was talking about, and still I am amazed by the sheer extent of their reach. Thank you for sharing this, it is incredible to see laid out like this.
The Birmingham pride is also just another fork in the tree map of all the lions in Kruger, so I don't think it's anymore special than any other pride of lions around but I do see your point as well.
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06-02-2021, 06:15 PM( This post was last modified: 06-02-2021, 08:21 PM by BA0701 )
(06-02-2021, 06:00 AM)sik94 Wrote:
(06-02-2021, 12:38 AM)BA0701 Wrote:
(06-02-2021, 12:29 AM)Tonpa Wrote: It's definitely cool to think about all the prides/coalitions that exist today that have some link back to the Birmingham pride
reminded me of this diagram/picture/thingy I saw on FB
*This image is copyright of its original author
Wow! That is precisely what I was talking about, and still I am amazed by the sheer extent of their reach. Thank you for sharing this, it is incredible to see laid out like this.
The Birmingham pride is also just another fork in the tree map of all the lions in Kruger, so I don't think it's anymore special than any other pride of lions around but I do see your point as well.
It may be, which goes to the root of my original question. I was asking what other prides have had as much of an impact on local lion dynamics. If you have any you can name, I'd love to hear about them.
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06-02-2021, 08:49 PM( This post was last modified: 06-02-2021, 08:52 PM by Tr1x24 )
(06-02-2021, 06:15 PM)BA0701 Wrote: It may be, which goes to the root of my original question. I was asking what other prides have had as much of an impact on local lion dynamics. If you have any you can name, I'd love to hear about them.
Siering 2 big male coalition of 5 males in a row ( Matimbas left the pride when 5 Bboys where born) is definetly something not a lot of prides did , and those 2 coalitions being so succesfull in their own way with numerous prides and offspring, lead us to this, that Birmingham pride is one of the most succesfull prides in Kruger (out of known and monitored prides) in regards of spreading their genes.
I think only Jock pride might have something similar, they had 2 generations of many males back in 2008/9 and 2014 which spread their genes around, and young Jocks are still in prime years, they also have 2 males in Mpondos coalition born around 2011/12.. But ofc we dont know whole treeline of Jock pride, unlike Birminghams.
(06-02-2021, 12:29 AM)Tonpa Wrote: It's definitely cool to think about all the prides/coalitions that exist today that have some link back to the Birmingham pride
reminded me of this diagram/picture/thingy I saw on FB
*This image is copyright of its original author
Wow! That is precisely what I was talking about, and still I am amazed by the sheer extent of their reach. Thank you for sharing this, it is incredible to see laid out like this.
The Birmingham pride is also just another fork in the tree map of all the lions in Kruger, so I don't think it's anymore special than any other pride of lions around but I do see your point as well.
It may be, which goes to the root of my original question. I was asking what other prides have had as much of an impact on local lion dynamics. If you have any you can name, I'd love to hear about them.
If one would know entire history of the lion prides then for sure there would be as impressive or more impressive reproduction success. Bassicly each pride is breakaway from the other pride so the deeper you search the more reproductive success you will find. Same way as Nharu pride is part of Birmingham pride lineage, same Birmingham pride is part of lineage of another pride from which Birmingham pride came from and because of that reproductive success wider for that pride. Problem is that we do not know in general, most of lion prides lineages further than few years back.
From the intresting lineages I am aware of I would say:
1. Giraffe pride which includes at least (that is of what I am aware of and definitelly I do not know whole history of that pride): Avoca pride (which breakaway from Giraffe pride) and all the off spring from the prides dominated by males related to Giraffe pride (Avocas/Giraffe males, younger Giraffe male, Rockfig male, Southern and Northern Avocas and Xikukutsu males.
2. Oryginal Tailless Tsalala lionesses from which comes nowdays Tsalala, Mhangni and Kambula prides + potentiall offspring two older Mhangenis could have in Kruger if they succeed. She herself breakaway from Ximughwe pride so as I mentioned above you could add her to Ximunghwe pride as well.
06-02-2021, 08:57 PM( This post was last modified: 06-02-2021, 09:15 PM by BA0701 )
(06-02-2021, 08:49 PM)Tr1x24 Wrote:
(06-02-2021, 06:15 PM)BA0701 Wrote: It may be, which goes to the root of my original question. I was asking what other prides have had as much of an impact on local lion dynamics. If you have any you can name, I'd love to hear about them.
Siering 2 big male coalition of 5 males in a row ( Matimbas left the pride when 5 Bboys where born) is definetly something not a lot of prides did , and those 2 coalitions being so succesfull in their own way with numerous prides and offspring, lead us to this, that Birmingham pride is one of the most succesfull prides in Kruger (out of known and monitored prides) in regards of spreading their genes.
I think only Jock pride might have something similar, they had 2 generations of many males back in 2008/9 and 2014 which spread their genes around, and young Jocks are still in prime years.. But ofc we dont know whole treeline of Jock pride, unlike Birminghams.
There in lies the issue, when you have prides that are in areas that don't recieve the same level of oversight, we end up with data that is very lacking. Going off of available data, the Birmingham pride is one of the more successful prides. It is still very early, but it makes me excited for the future of BYM, the white male, and those other two youngsters.
Clearly speculation, but I am hopeful for their futures to be as bright.
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06-02-2021, 09:11 PM( This post was last modified: 06-02-2021, 09:12 PM by BA0701 )
(06-02-2021, 08:54 PM)Potato Wrote:
(06-02-2021, 06:15 PM)BA0701 Wrote:
(06-02-2021, 06:00 AM)sik94 Wrote:
(06-02-2021, 12:38 AM)BA0701 Wrote:
(06-02-2021, 12:29 AM)Tonpa Wrote: It's definitely cool to think about all the prides/coalitions that exist today that have some link back to the Birmingham pride
reminded me of this diagram/picture/thingy I saw on FB
*This image is copyright of its original author
Wow! That is precisely what I was talking about, and still I am amazed by the sheer extent of their reach. Thank you for sharing this, it is incredible to see laid out like this.
The Birmingham pride is also just another fork in the tree map of all the lions in Kruger, so I don't think it's anymore special than any other pride of lions around but I do see your point as well.
It may be, which goes to the root of my original question. I was asking what other prides have had as much of an impact on local lion dynamics. If you have any you can name, I'd love to hear about them.
If one would know entire history of the lion prides then for sure there would be as impressive or more impressive reproduction success. Bassicly each pride is breakaway from the other pride so the deeper you search the more reproductive success you will find. Same way as Nharu pride is part of Birmingham pride lineage, same Birmingham pride is part of lineage of another pride from which Birmingham pride came from and because of that reproductive success wider for that pride. Problem is that we do not know in general, most of lion prides lineages further than few years back.
From the intresting lineages I am aware of I would say:
1. Giraffe pride which includes at least (that is of what I am aware of and definitelly I do not know whole history of that pride): Avoca pride (which breakaway from Giraffe pride) and all the off spring from the prides dominated by males related to Giraffe pride (Avocas/Giraffe males, younger Giraffe male, Rockfig male, Southern and Northern Avocas and Xikukutsu males.
2. Oryginal Tailless Tsalala lionesses from which comes nowdays Tsalala, Mhangni and Kambula prides + potentiall offspring two older Mhangenis could have in Kruger if they succeed. She herself breakaway from Ximughwe pride so as I mentioned above you could add her to Ximunghwe pride as well.
I could not agree more. While studies of lions have gone on for all my years on this earth, which is a lot, but you hit on one of the biggest issues. We are working within the constraints of available data. Everything comes from something, somewhere, but given the relatively early stages of lion study at this low level, there just isn't enough available data to fill all of those tremendous gaps, at least not yet.
You mention the original Tailess Tsalala Lioness. It is funny, but I literally just read an entire story of her and her daughter, the second Tailless Tsalala Lioness (and possibly the more well known, due to there being more data available), how incredible they were, to have both been at one point the sole remaining lioness of the pride and to rebuild it. Now we see history repeating for a third time in that same pride, incredible. I am going to share that story in the Lion Tales thread, just haven't had time yet, but I will as soon as I am able, because I think it is such an incredible story of survival.
Your post is exactly what I was hoping for, so thank you my friend.
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Birmingham Pride of lions
