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Big Cat's Canines and Claws

United States Pckts Offline
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Those cannines....

Matkasur male


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"Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he is not, and a sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is."
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phatio Offline
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( This post was last modified: 03-19-2019, 09:24 PM by phatio )

5 inch fossil canine of a tiger from Java.

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author

@GrizzlyClaws those are the lower canines right? 
i'm curious @GrizzlyClaws or @tigerluver what is the average length of modern lion/tiger's lower canine teeth? how about the upper canine? thanks in advance

but wait, are they real? i mean when i compare them to modern sumatran tiger's canines they looks so enormous. 

*This image is copyright of its original author

anyway i found those images from online seller, sadly no further description available.
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United States tigerluver Offline
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( This post was last modified: 03-19-2019, 09:39 PM by tigerluver )

@phatio , nice find!

From my own data, the average lower canine crown was about 40 mm. The average upper canine crown was about 50 mm. I'd have to check other sources to see if they have anything much different, but I doubt it.

Something does look a bit odd about the roots. Could you please PM more information on the seller/link? I've established a network with some collectors overseas and maybe I'll be able to dig up some more information. Generally the black fossils are from peat, thus aren't much older than 26 kya. Issue is Java has no significant peatlands. I've also never seen a fossil with such preservation from Java. Dark fossils are usually from Bornean mines or Thailand.
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phatio Offline
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@tigerluver you can contact the seller here : https://www.tokopedia.com/270/taring-har...id=3044659
or here https://www.tokopedia.com/270
seems like he also have other fossils like lobster and some elephant tusks
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Canada GrizzlyClaws Offline
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(03-19-2019, 09:01 PM)phatio Wrote: 5 inch fossil canine of a tiger from Java.

*This image is copyright of its original author


*This image is copyright of its original author

@GrizzlyClaws those are the lower canines right? 
i'm curious @GrizzlyClaws or @tigerluver what is the average length of modern lion/tiger's lower canine teeth? how about the upper canine? thanks in advance

but wait, are they real? i mean when i compare them to modern sumatran tiger's canines they looks so enormous. 

*This image is copyright of its original author

anyway i found those images from online seller, sadly no further description available.


It is definitely the lower canine teeth, no doubt. And the upper canine teeth are about 20% longer in most of time.

BTW, the pattern of fossilization of those tiger fossils in Southeast Asia is way different from the Mainland China including Manchuria.

The NEA tiger fossils got smoother texture, while the SEA tiger got coarser texture. Maybe it was caused by the humidity?
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Canada GrizzlyClaws Offline
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(03-19-2019, 09:38 PM)tigerluver Wrote: @phatio , nice find!

From my own data, the average lower canine crown was about 40 mm. The average upper canine crown was about 50 mm. I'd have to check other sources to see if they have anything much different, but I doubt it.

Something does look a bit odd about the roots. Could you please PM more information on the seller/link? I've established a network with some collectors overseas and maybe I'll be able to dig up some more information. Generally the black fossils are from peat, thus aren't much older than 26 kya. Issue is Java has no significant peatlands. I've also never seen a fossil with such preservation from Java. Dark fossils are usually from Bornean mines or Thailand.

The shape of the SEA tiger fossils usually don't look as good as those NEA tiger fossils.

Maybe it was the humidity that caused certain degree of deformation during the course of fossilization.
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United States tigerluver Offline
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@GrizzlyClaws , have you seen a canine with such a pronounced ridge at the crown-root junction before? The contour change from the root to the crown is also a bit odd.
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Canada GrizzlyClaws Offline
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( This post was last modified: 03-20-2019, 08:13 AM by GrizzlyClaws )

(03-20-2019, 07:03 AM)tigerluver Wrote: @GrizzlyClaws , have you seen a canine with such a pronounced ridge at the crown-root junction before? The contour change from the root to the crown is also a bit odd.

The pronounced ridge usually featured among the lion canine teeth, but some tiger canine teeth can also have this feature, just not as often as the lion.

If it was not a counterfeit product with different parts being welded together, it was quite usual that the texture of the root and crown had a significant contrast.


Here is the upper canine tooth of a large Cave lioness, and you can see the texture of the root and crown didn't have the same pattern.


*This image is copyright of its original author
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phatio Offline
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fyi here in indonesia polished stones and bones are very popular items, it gives more value than the original stuff. 
a polished canine of leopard (?)

*This image is copyright of its original author


this one I'm pretty sure belongs clouded leopard

*This image is copyright of its original author

maybe the owner did the same thing to the original fossil  (especially the crown part), if it really is a real one. 
but thats just my guess, i really don't know tbh. as @tigerluver suggest we need to be careful of this finding.

@GrizzlyClaws, so the upper canine sould be around 6 inch long, right? is that normal for modern tiger/lion?
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Canada GrizzlyClaws Offline
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( This post was last modified: 03-20-2019, 11:08 AM by GrizzlyClaws )

(03-20-2019, 10:49 AM)phatio Wrote: fyi here in indonesia polished stones and bones are very popular items, it gives more value than the original stuff. 
a polished canine of leopard (?)

*This image is copyright of its original author


this one I'm pretty sure belongs clouded leopard

*This image is copyright of its original author

maybe the owner did the same thing to the original fossil  (especially the crown part), if it really is a real one. 
but thats just my guess, i really don't know tbh. as @tigerluver suggest we need to be careful of this finding.

@GrizzlyClaws, so the upper canine sould be around 6 inch long, right? is that normal for modern tiger/lion?


The two canine teeth above look like some low quality replica products made of resin. And @tigerluver was indeed right, we need to be careful.

BTW, the upper canines could be 20% longer than the lower canines for tiger, whereas a little less for lion.

The largest canine tooth for the modern tiger is about 168 mm, and 137 mm for the modern African lion.
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United States tigerluver Offline
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So looks like we've caught tampering at the minimum and at the worst a counterfeit. 

To summarize the red flags:
1. The color. Javanese fossils are generally not a polished black. River fossils can get this texture but the rivers of Java are sand-based, thus we get a brown color like in the Ngandong tiger. In the Stegodon teeth I've seen to be claimed from Java that are glazed black, there are still a lot of reddish-rusty hues.
2. The ridge at the crown-root junction is not the usual, especially in tigers.
3. The texture of the root is unusual. While there is a texture difference between the crown and root, here it looks too different.
4. Note the inner curve of the canine (posterior side). The tooth almost pinches off and flattens, which is quite unusual. Almost like plastic or resin. Around this same line where the material pinches and flatten it almost (or simply) looks like there's a seam (especially in the first photo with the canines in the seller's hand).
5. Finding a pair of lower canines without any other remains is just next to impossible in terms of probability. For both canines to fall out then be found in the same place thousands of years later too many things would need to fall into place.

Overall the pieces look too polished (as @phatio mentioned) or even resin/plastic.
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Canada GrizzlyClaws Offline
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( This post was last modified: 03-20-2019, 11:17 PM by GrizzlyClaws )

(03-20-2019, 10:17 PM)tigerluver Wrote: So looks like we've caught tampering at the minimum and at the worst a counterfeit. 

To summarize the red flags:
1. The color. Javanese fossils are generally not a polished black. River fossils can get this texture but the rivers of Java are sand-based, thus we get a brown color like in the Ngandong tiger. In the Stegodon teeth I've seen to be claimed from Java that are glazed black, there are still a lot of reddish-rusty hues.
2. The ridge at the crown-root junction is not the usual, especially in tigers.
3. The texture of the root is unusual. While there is a texture difference between the crown and root, here it looks too different.
4. Note the inner curve of the canine (posterior side). The tooth almost pinches off and flattens, which is quite unusual. Almost like plastic or resin. Around this same line where the material pinches and flatten it almost (or simply) looks like there's a seam (especially in the first photo with the canines in the seller's hand).
5. Finding a pair of lower canines without any other remains is just next to impossible in terms of probability. For both canines to fall out then be found in the same place thousands of years later too many things would need to fall into place.

Overall the pieces look too polished (as @phatio mentioned) or even resin/plastic.


Here is a Ngandong tiger upper canine tooth from another private collector, and I guess it practically matches your description of being polished black, but also it should be found at the bottom of the river with some brownish hue.


I guess those skilled collectors knew how to properly break the canine teeth off its jaw without creating any fissure.



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New Zealand ET8888 Offline
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( This post was last modified: 03-27-2019, 02:06 PM by sanjay )

(10-31-2015, 02:03 AM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: South China tiger, an old male that probably dated from 50-100 years ago.


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What a amazing fang...
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New Zealand ET8888 Offline
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( This post was last modified: 03-27-2019, 02:07 PM by sanjay )

(02-25-2016, 12:49 PM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: Siberian Cave lion


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*This image is copyright of its original author



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Can any body tell me, why is this lion fang is black??
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Canada GrizzlyClaws Offline
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(03-27-2019, 08:25 AM)ET8888 Wrote:
(02-25-2016, 12:49 PM)GrizzlyClaws Wrote: Siberian Cave lion


*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author
Can any body tell me, why is this lion fang is black??


Because it is a fossil.
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