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Avoca male lions

BigLion39 Online
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( This post was last modified: 11-24-2022, 12:47 PM by BigLion39 )

My opinion on this subjective circumstance is I respect and am grateful to have all the unbiased footage of DM and other lions put there for me to have the opportunity to view it or not view it. If the ororiginal film makers decided not to release it I wouldn't even have a choice to view it. So even tho I, myself, chose not to view DM and the altercation with the buffalo's, I hold dear to the fact I had a choice. I hope this will always continue to be so. Another example was Logols death. We weren't even afforded the opportunity to watch it. Not saying I would have, but the film makers decided only to release 10 seconds of video. I wish, I would have, at a minimum, had a choice to view it. 

The only thing objective about any of this is  our choice to view or not. I've gotten into arguments on FB about this, about people voicing their opinions because of emotions. It leads to arguments and nobody ever gets satisfied. Seems like it only escalates.  If we let emotions dictate to us then we would not have so many choices in life. 

RIP Dark Mane Avoca
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Australia 1999gc8 Offline
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( This post was last modified: 11-24-2022, 12:48 PM by 1999gc8 )

(11-24-2022, 10:50 AM)1ofCourage Wrote:
(11-24-2022, 01:40 AM)Tr1x24 Wrote:
(11-24-2022, 12:28 AM)WildLeonis Wrote: I agree with others regarding the disrespect in reporting on DM remains. I didn’t expect him to be buried. He was after all apart of nature and should be left to return to the earth and replenish it. But they did not need to take pictures and broadcast footage of his half eaten corpse and bones scattered about, especially considering how loved and popular he was. When I seen some of the videos come up in my YouTube feed about his carcass being moved etc I bypassed them. I refuse to watch as I’d rather remember DM as he was, specifically in his prime. 

I don’t recall footage and pictures being released of Blondie, Thandie, and Hosana’s corpses and how they were devoured by nature after their deaths. Thus the continuous coverage by WE and others on the status DM’s remains seem more like an attempt at keeping viewers interest, being that he was so popular, rather than some educational opportunity on the way of nature.

And you watch buffaloes or other pray animal carcasses getting eaten and bones throwed around? Which is broadcasted almost every day? Thats not the problem?

As i said, we follow lions, but dont "put" lions above other animals in importance.. 

So, we dont want to see lions getting killed and eaten, but we cheer and dont mind  when that happens to buffalo or hyena which lions kill and eat..thats normal then. 

Why should they show carcasses of buffaloes but not of lions?

I guess that my respect for his life included the same for his death. There is no way that I’d exploit it or display it. People will watch tributes of his life just as readily, so choosing to post anything else is unnecessary and doesn’t reflect the concern and love that people had for this unique lion. It offends a lot of people to see DM’s dead body photographed in any state. He deserves better, I think. Leave that part of the story untold.

Obviously my post about DM photos has triggered quite a few responses. Although I mentioned maybe he could have been buried I thought that because it seemed like a unique case given how popular he was in Sabi Sands. I also realize nature is nature and I know hoping he would be buried is expecting a bit much as well. 

It still would have been a nice gesture for sure to just leave him in peace and not take anyone to the location to take photos of his half eaten corpse so they can be published on social media.
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United States DARK MANE Offline
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( This post was last modified: 11-24-2022, 11:26 PM by DARK MANE )

Both Southern avocas are with plain camp pride in kruger national park.
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SalemMagi Offline
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(11-24-2022, 12:44 PM)BigLion39 Wrote: My opinion on this subjective circumstance is I respect and am grateful to have all the unbiased footage of DM and other lions put there for me to have the opportunity to view it or not view it. If the ororiginal film makers decided not to release it I wouldn't even have a choice to view it. So even tho I, myself, chose not to view DM and the altercation with the buffalo's, I hold dear to the fact I had a choice. I hope this will always continue to be so. Another example was Logols death. We weren't even afforded the opportunity to watch it. Not saying I would have,  but the film makers decided  only to release 10 seconds of video. I wish, I would have, at a minimum, had a choice to view it. 

The only thing objective about any of this is  our choice to view or not. I've gotten into arguments on FB about this, about people voicing their opinions because of emotions. It leads to arguments and nobody ever gets satisfied. Seems like it only escalates.  If we let emotions dictate to us then we would  not have  so many choices in life. 

RIP Dark Mane Avoca

i absolutely agree with you and i am all~ways Grateful for the Choice to view or not to view the visual documentations of nature. 

This is why i feel so uncomfortable with the decision that was made to restrict visibility of Dark Mane during his final couple of days. 

His walking movements appeared to be improving and he seemed to be covering more ground right before the no camera black out zoning restrictions were implemented and visibility of Dark Mane was eliminated.. 

...Once the black out zoning restrictions were lifted, we were told that Dark Mane appeared to be missing and then he was found dead... 

We will never truly know what happened with Dark Mane during those 2 days before his death and/or what caused his death specifically, unfortunately... 

and that saddens me... Transparency is so necessary and so important when it comes to the wildlife in Sabi Sand...

On the flip side (i want to be clear), i will always choose Not to watch an animal, or any being for that matter, suffer... and i will always help when i can.. that is just my philosophy in life.. I am an empathic/sensitive being and therefore choose NOT to watch predatory hunts... but that does not mean that this aspect of nature should not be documented...

I am still processing and grieving DM's death... 

Honor and Respect, Dark Mane Avoca~
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Netherlands Duco Ndona Offline
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( This post was last modified: 11-25-2022, 05:23 PM by Duco Ndona )

I think that has more to do with giving the animal peace.
So you dont get the weird case that an animal is too scared to move due to the vehicles there watching if its going to move.
Hyenas also may be clever or nogh to realize that wherever there is a car. There is a potential meal.


Ultimately, whether we watch an animal or not. The cameras should not endanger an animal.
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[email protected] Offline
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(11-25-2022, 05:09 PM)SalemMagi Wrote: We will never truly know what happened with Dark Mane during those 2 days before his death and/or what caused his death specifically, unfortunately... 
Ja, no. That sort of speculation is unhelpful. It's almost like a snipe to say 'how do we know that Sabi Sands is withholding information? Maybe he should still be alive,' etc etc. It just drives Conspiracy theories and hysteri on social media. 

At the end of the day we know what killed him; he was badly injured by buffaloes and was left with what looked like certain internal injuries. Now he might have succumbed on his own or hyena might have hastened his end but either way, it was ultimately down to the injuries he sustained on that day. I personally doubt that hyenas were the ones to finish him; the Djuma clan is viewed on almost a daily basis and their numbers aren't so much so to be able to take on a male lion who still had some capacity to defend himself, even in futility given his condition, without some noticeable injury.

Nature unfortunately took its course and Dark Mane paid the price for being caught in a buffalo herd. That should be enough.
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criollo2mil Offline
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Tribute and Celebration of Dark Mane




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SalemMagi Offline
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(11-25-2022, 08:13 PM)[email protected] Wrote:
(11-25-2022, 05:09 PM)SalemMagi Wrote: We will never truly know what happened with Dark Mane during those 2 days before his death and/or what caused his death specifically, unfortunately... 
That sort of speculation is unhelpful. 

There is nothing speculative about my statement. These are the facts and the reality of the situation.

For the record... There was no autopsy done to definitively identify DM's cause of death and the Wild Earth cameras that had been documenting his life situation were suddenly publicly prohibited from documenting his condition and movements during the last 2 days of his life.

Therefore, "we will never truly know what happened with Dark Mane during those 2 days before his death and/or what caused his death specifically, unfortunately..."

Critical thinking skills are a vital resource in life. Stay curious and always ask questions.


Quote:It's almost like a snipe to say 'how do we know that Sabi Sands is withholding information? Maybe he should still be alive,' etc etc. 

 Sabi Sand is known to withhold information in the public realm. 

The most recent example of this (beyond DM's situation) is the recent "euthanization" of Sassy, the Othawa Lioness. To my knowledge, no public statement regarding the decision to euthanize Sassy was ever made by SS. Instead, the only reason we know that Sassy was "euthanized" is because concerned folks contacted the National Council of Societies for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (NSPCA) who launched an investigation and interviewed staff on the ground. The Wildlife protection unit of the NSPCA ultimately determined and publicly stated that Sassy had indeed been "euthanized". This blatantly contradicts the long standing policy of non intervention and "letting nature take it's course" which is reiterated on the Sabi Sand website. SS has been asked about the exact protocol used to "euthanize" Sassy and still has not provided any specific details to the public. This is wholly problematic for multiple reasons and continues to perpetuate a lack of transparency or as you say, "withholding of information" within the realm of "wildlife management" at Sabi Sand.

Quote:At the end of the day we know what killed him; he was badly injured by buffaloes and was left with what looked like certain internal injuries.
No, we do not know exactly what killed him. There is no autopsy or veterinary assessment that has been publicly released. You saw video and photos that documented his encounter with a buffalo herd. Beyond that, you are free to speculate on his exact cause of death... hopefully without judgement or discouragement and harassment that your speculation is "unhelpful" or even ignorant. 
Quote:Nature unfortunately took its course and Dark Mane paid the price for being caught in a buffalo herd. 

You were not privy to the last 2 days of DM's existence on this earthly realm, because it was intentionally not documented by Wild Earth. You are speculating that nature took it's course... you "assume" that Dark Mane paid the price for being caught in a buffalo herd... but the facts are this: You do not have firsthand knowledge of the events that transpired while the cameras were publicly prohibited from documenting DM's movements during his last days. 

You were not there in person... and visibility of Dark Mane was intentionally blacked out by Sabi Sand. You are free to 'Assume' and speculate all you want but you cannot definitively say and document what happened to Dark Mane Avoca in his last days. You just can't.. because you were not there and unfortunately there is no photographic record or veterinary assessment that has been publicly released.  

Quote:That should be enough.


Hearsay and speculation will never be "enough" for the critical thinker and astute spirit. This is another reason why transparency and documentation are so valuable when it comes to the protection of wildlife in the Sabi Sand region. Too many lions have gone missing and who knows how many lions have been euthanized behind the scenes now... i encourage everyone to stay curious and ask questions with the intention of creating a more just and equitable life experience for all beings. Forums like this can provide a safe space to document and explore optimal responses to  the variety of scenarios that play out in the wild.

Peace be with Dark Mane Avoca and Peace be with you~
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[email protected] Offline
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( This post was last modified: 11-26-2022, 11:18 AM by [email protected] )

(11-26-2022, 06:20 AM)SalemMagi Wrote: There is nothing speculative about my statement. These are the facts and the reality of the situation.

For the record... There was no autopsy done to definitively identify DM's cause of death and the Wild Earth cameras that had been documenting his life situation were suddenly publicly prohibited from documenting his condition and movements during the last 2 days of his life.
I found your post difficult to read and bordering on disingenuous. Not everything is a broad conspiracy designed to obfuscate and mislead the public. Sabi Sands blocked off the area; its their reserve and their right to do so and you may find of hard to believe but they do keep the animals best interest at heart as it is literally the lifeblood of what they do. You like to assume yourself as being a 'critical thinker' but you're delving into the realm of conspiracy by assuming the mantle of accuser when it comes to your statements of lions going missing. Kruger is a massive area of land with vast tracts being untraversed with the added burden of poaching to that so lions going missing is a result of one of the two factors; disappearing into untraversed area where they live out unseen or die unseen or unfortunately sometimes a victim to poachers. 

It's not speculation to attribute Dark Mane's demise to what happened with the Buffalo herd. He was seriously trampled, gored and tossed around like a rag doll and the evidence thereafter was undeniable. Alot of people are erroneously commenting on his paw 'healing' the point of which I can identify as when Tessa said 'oh look, his paw is already started to heal, it's half the size it was when we first saw him'. I know this because I was watching at the time and it's akin to saying the cut has stopped bleeding while ignoring the gunshot wound. There were severe internal injuries to him unfortunately; while watching it was clear to see the puncture wounds and the deformity in the chest cavity and three large distinct dimples that formed when he breathed in and out as well as some foam that was clear. Something not mentioned in all of this was the intense heat of that and subsequent days, temperatures were in the high 30's and having stayed in the Lowveld, probably with high humidity as well and in that condition, not near enough any water sources. Injured lions do typically seek out water as even more than food, water is the stuff of life in the bush and with those temperatures in his compromised condition, lack of water would have been an accelerant to his injuries. 

So yeah, he ultimately paid the price of being badly injured by the buffaloes. If he hadn't been injured by them he would be a relatively well fed male lion in, barring an old injury, in relatively good condition and probably still kicking around today as he has been for months since being nomadic. So the ultimate cause is that eventuality regardless of the final act, however it happened. It's folly to assume that for everything to be fact it has to be seen. It's cloudy and raining here as it was last night, I didn't see any stars last night but I know they're there...
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Netherlands Duco Ndona Offline
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Sabi Sands is under no obligation to share any information with the public, nor does it ban it. What is shared is ultimately up to the people involved to share. 

So in Sassys case. None of the people involved choose to share photos. Which I really cant fault them for as the lion community can be quite terrible at time and nobody wants to turn themselves in a target for online harassment.

Sabi Sands has always euthanized animals.
The exact protocols are unknown. But most likely there is nothing concrete and the situation is up to a council of some sorts

What we do know is however that the biggest factors are wheter or not animals form a threat to people and the amount of impact it has on natural balance.
Sending of an animal that has zero chance of survival but would likely suffered for days is a candidate for that. Most likely Darkmane would probably have been too if he hadnt died first. But first they gave him space, so even if there was a minute chance he could pull through. He wouldnt waste it hiding from people. 

There is absolutely no mystery why Darkmane died 
His ribcage was in pieces. One of his lungs was slowly drowning in fluids.The other possibly collapsed. 
His urine was darkened, suggesting potential damage to his urinal tract or kidneys. Blood was seen oozing from his anus. Implying internal bleeding with a chance of a infection of the abdomen.
His leg was busted, reducing his movement speed to only a few hundred meters a day. There was zero chance of him getting food or reliably even getting water or shelter. Or defend himself from any attacker for that matter. And thats just what was noticed from afar.

The minute he got caught by that herd. His survival chances pretty much dropped to zero. No need for an autopsy to determine what killed him. We can safely close the book on that.

I think this highlight why its important to keep some professionalism if it comes to covering animals. Especially for the WildEarth crew. I can get that they formed a bond with those animals and that they hope they will be alright.. But I fear that by voicing these hopes on camera, they accidentally  gave a lot of people hope where there was little.
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Tonpa Offline
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Any work on Mohawks latest whereabouts?
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SalemMagi Offline
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Video  ( This post was last modified: Yesterday, 11:30 AM by SalemMagi Edit Reason: formatting: spacing )

(11-26-2022, 03:06 PM)Duco Ndona Wrote: Sabi Sands has always euthanized animals.
The exact protocols are unknown. But most likely there is nothing concrete and the situation is up to a council of some sorts

I did not know that "Sabi Sand has always euthanized animals."

Thanks for the info.

I was under the impression that they "let nature take its course" as that is what it says on their website.

do you know specifically which Lions have been euthanized in Sabi Sand?

i have always wondered about Tailless Tsalala... 

and do you know how common this euthanization practice is with the Lion population in SS?

Thank you for your insights, appreciate your perspective.


In Lak'ech~
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Mwk85 Offline
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(11-29-2022, 10:12 PM)Tonpa Wrote: Any work on Mohawks latest whereabouts?

With the pride in MalaMala


https://instagram.com/stories/lions_sabi...DJmNzVkMjY=
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United Kingdom lionuk Offline
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( This post was last modified: Yesterday, 02:48 PM by lionuk )

Mohawk 
Credit: Jordan Taylor


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Netherlands Duco Ndona Offline
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There are no official numbers on how many and which animals are euthanized. The reserve does not release such numbers nor does the team dealing with it have any presence on the internet. So we only hear about it when a guide mentions it or through some other means. 

From what I understand the typical cases are cases where an individual animal has been hurt beyond any hope of survival. But would still have to face a slow agonizing death. 
Sending the animal off in these cases are concidered not intervening with nature as the animal would have died regardless soon anyway. 

Other cases where its done is when there is an outbreak of a severe dangerous illness such as Rabies. When animals grow to comfortable with human activity. (E.G. harrasing people for food) Or when animals escape from the reserve and pose a direct risk to humans but there is no room in the reserve to relocate them towards.
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