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Asiatic Lion Reintroduction Project

India parvez Offline
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Are asiatic lions from zoos too inbred or correctly bred? Some one please clarify.
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Argentina Tshokwane Offline
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Easy @paul cooper  , you know the mods are here to make people behave, so don't take it upon yourself. You can report things like this to the mods, we'll take care of it.

As for you @Garfield,  I'm pretty certain we discussed with you the way you talk in the forum. We're trying to be serious and improve our knowledge, not to bro-everything to be cool.

I'm not telling you to not participate, but for the love of God at least try to make yourself understandable.

I don't want to be repeating myself, thank you.
‘Like night-watchmen they patrol the dark nights; marching with intent and chasing all those unwanted into the shadows…those that do not run are removed’
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United States paul cooper Offline
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(12-30-2017, 07:56 AM)Tshokwane Wrote: Easy @paul cooper  , you know the mods are here to make people behave, so don't take it upon yourself. You can report things like this to the mods, we'll take care of it.

As for you @Garfield,  I'm pretty certain we discussed with you the way you talk in the forum. We're trying to be serious and improve our knowledge, not to bro-everything to be cool.

I'm not telling you to not participate, but for the love of God at least try to make yourself understandable.

I don't want to be repeating myself, thank you.

That is starfox/counter strike making a fool out of himself. Its hilarious
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India Rishi Online
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( This post was last modified: 01-06-2018, 07:31 AM by Rishi )

(12-23-2017, 06:20 PM)parvez Wrote: Are asiatic lions from zoos too inbred or correctly bred? Some one please clarify.

Good point. 
As per Studbook, the variety in the source population is very high, although that's mostly because the lions live in prides that can be tracked & monitored easily by foresters as most rejected/orphaned cubs are rescued to captivity life.

In light of a recent news report in UK...
Quote:London Zoo lion family so inbred that 2 of 3 cubs are dying
December 2017

*This image is copyright of its original author
  • Pride are all descended from small group of 'founders' that shared the same grandparents.
  • Lions at London Zoo are descended from 'founders' brought to Europe in the 90s
  • London's lions are all part of the European Endangered breeding programme
  • But the programme is being questioned with 70 per cent of cubs dying.
The lions at London Zoo are part of a breeding programme in which 70 per cent of cubs are dying, a study has found.
The lions are all descended from a very small number of ‘founders’ brought over to Europe in the 1990s.
But the ‘extremely high degree of genetic similarity’ of the founders’ offspring is ‘detrimental’ to their health, according to researchers.

The European Endangered breeding programme was set up to save the Asiatic lion in the mid-1990s.
The idea was to have a pool of pure Asiatic lions that could be reintroduced to India if the species became locally extinct.
Nine founder lions were brought to Europe, of which four went to London Zoo, while the rest went to Helsinki and Zurich zoos. And even these ‘founders’ were already highly related – with six of the lions sharing the same grandparents.


*This image is copyright of its original author

In December 2009 the EEP population of Asian lions had risen to 93 individuals across 34 zoos. But the study found 68.4 per cent of cubs from this family were dying at birth or shortly afterwards.
Some 57 lions were born between 2007 and 2009. Of these 39 died after birth, of which 35 died within 20 days, three within two months and one was euthanased at four years old.
The report in the journal Mammalian Biology said the breeding programme at the zoo was ‘not viable’ long term. There are currently four lions at London Zoo. Dr Paul O’Donoghue, one of the report’s authors, said the high number of deaths called into question the zoos’ lion conservation programme

The EEP lions are so closely related, the report said, that further matings were not advisable. It suggested new lions from India need to be added to the breeding programme to ensure the ‘long-term viability of the offspring’.
Malcolm Fitzpatrick, curator of mammals for ZSL (Zoological Society of London) said: ‘We welcome this study and the advancements in science that will assist in the conservation breeding of Asiatic lions and other endangered species in zoos throughout Europe and India.
The EEP lions are so closely related, the report said, that further matings were not advisable. It suggested new lions from India need to be added to the breeding programme to ensure the ‘long-term viability of the offspring’.
Malcolm Fitzpatrick, curator of mammals for ZSL (Zoological Society of London) said: ‘We welcome this study and the advancements in science that will assist in the conservation breeding of Asiatic lions and other endangered species in zoos throughout Europe and India.
‘It may also assist with management of isolated populations in the wild that themselves have limited genetic variability.’
...we can safely conclude that our captive lions' genetic variety is ok(ish).
In India most captive-born cubs survive, while our zoos don't even have that standard of maintainance & veterinary care as London zoo.

Still.. Gujrat's own zoo's try to hold on to the best specimens.



"Everything not saved will be lost."

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India parvez Offline
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Thanks for the effort @Rishi . That was very helpful. I propose to make these healthy population s survive in the wild and avoid their contact with inbred populations from gujarath and develop a healthy gene pool in the wild. That would be extremely effective.
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India Rishi Online
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( This post was last modified: 05-13-2018, 07:31 AM by Rishi )

I'm trying to find more info on it right now...


IT'S (ALMOST) OFFICIAL NOW: TIGERS FOR KUNO
February 5, 2018

Lioness with her cub in Gir forest.

*This image is copyright of its original author

BHOPAL: For the first time in the 27-year tussle, Madhya Pradesh government has gone on record to allege that Gujarat government has made it a “prestige issue” not to shift Gir lions to Kuno despite a Supreme Court ruling.
Neither the chief minister nor senior forest officials have ever given any official statement on the stalemate in recent years. In fact, chief wildlife wardens of MP had stopped responding to media inquiries on the row between two BJP-ruled states.

At the 16th meeting of the MP state wildlife board, the stalemate was discussed at length and it was unanimously decided that tigers would be shifted to Kuno, given that Gujarat is not ready to share its lions. 

The bombshell is tucked away in order number 1 of the minutes of the meeting: “Considering the fact that despite rehabilitation of people in 24 villages from Kuno around 20 years ago and notwithstanding the Supreme Court order of 2013, Gujarat was not ready to shift Gir lions making it their ‘prestige issue’, it would be better to shift dispersing tigers to that place. That'll help mitigate increasing man-animal conflicts in the state due to tigers expanding their range.”

This tiger cub was rescued from a dry well in MP.

*This image is copyright of its original author

But Wildlife activist Ajay Dubey, who has filed a contempt petition in Supreme Court demanding action against the Centre and Gujarat government for not implementing the SC order of April 2013, has questioned the MP government’s stand. He finds the order of the 16th meeting “highly objectionable”, and says: “When they accept that Gujarat has made it a prestige issue, why don’t they file a contempt petition in court? They could have, at least, supported my petition on the same cause in court. It’s a dubious stand. If it’s a prestige issue for Gujarat, why isn’t it for MP as well when they have done everything that was required — including shifting hundreds of poor villagers and taking away their livelihood?”

When shortage of prey base was cited as one of the major objections, the MP government had gone to the extent of declaring 700 sq km as a protected area to resolve the issue. After MP won the eight-year-long legal battle in 2013, Gujarat has been dilly-dallying on compliance, say MP officials. Madhya Pradesh went to the extent of suggesting that they were not averse to retaining the tag of ‘Gir’ or ‘Gujarat’ to identify the relocated lions at their new home in Kuno-Palpur.
The move for relocation of big cats, first mooted in 1991, had been hanging fire because Gujarat had refused to part with the majestic lions since that state holds the unique distinction of having the natural habitat of the only surviving Asiatic lions. While conservationists insisted that diversifying the lions’ habitat would ward off any natural, medical or man-made calamity that could wipe out the entire population, Gujarat treated the issue as a matter of pride and wanted to retain its unique status to continue to attract the substantial tourist inflow to Gir. After the Supreme Court finally resolved the issue in favour of relocation, Gujarat is left with little choice but to comply.
"Everything not saved will be lost."

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India Rishi Online
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( This post was last modified: 02-26-2018, 11:44 PM by Rishi )

The results of this census is going to play an important role in shaping the decision over the future of Kuno-Palpur landscape!

Kuno resonates with roars of several tigers
Feb, 10 2018

(Personal note: Right one seems like a female.)

*This image is copyright of its original author

GWALIOR: In the forest of Sheopur in MP, the work of counting wildlife is being done since last week. First phase of the census is going to be completed on Saturday. The team which is counting in the Kuno, also saw tiger's pugmarks in the Agra area. It is being said that the number of tigers is more than one in the forests of the district.

It is being told that tiger in Kuno were present in the area of Palpur from Veerpur. This may be a new tiger, which has got pugmarks in the Agra area.

Signs picked up by the census teams running the field operation in Kuno Sanctuary show that the number of panthers has also increased.
Because their pugmarks & scats are also being found in large numbers by the teams. In the previous census 4 years ago, the number of panthers in the district was stated to be around 45.

Presently their number is being estimated to have crossed 50.


*This image is copyright of its original author


Here that the first phase of the census is being carried out now, under which documentation forms are being filled, in which the number of animals which are available in the field, etc. are being written.
After the second phase of the operation, with the help of camera traps, GPS positioning etc. will be taken. Only after this will the current status of wildlife be clear. Although its report will come from Dehradun, where experts will calculate it, and after that the report will be released with all the corresponding data.

"It is true that the Agra side also has tiger pugmarks. But one just can not say anything about their numbers or whether they are resident animals or just dispersing males. That will only be known after camera-trapping process in completed & analysed, both here & in Ranthambore in Rajasthan. Its report are declared by WII experts after the complete calculations on a test basis. Only then can we know if Kuno has a viable tiger population or not."
Brijendra Shrivastav, DFO, Kuno-Vanandal-Sheopur.
"Everything not saved will be lost."

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Brazil Matias Offline
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( This post was last modified: 02-27-2018, 08:40 PM by Matias )




In my opinion the Kuno Palpur reserve is too small for a translocation program, it does not have enough territory to manage a genetically healthy population in a self-sufficient manner. The existence or not of resident tigers is a minor fact, I do not think tigers are the major territorial limiters for lions. The population increase will tiger a territorial expansion disordered by areas and territories unfit for such predators. The population of Rajasthan does not have the tolerance of the people of Gujarat. When a group of lions is implanted in Kuno, all the life references of these lions are in Gir, they will continually search for "references" and not finding them will continue to search, breaking the boundaries of Kuno so fast as possible. I believe that Kuno-Palpur is, in essence, a great marketing project.


One fact in itself that also concerns me is the sentiment of the inhabitants of Gujarat State. After more than 100 years of unparalleled coexistence in any other part of the world, its values can reduce, within a long time process of deconstruction of values, implying the progressive loss of its "tolerance rate" of living with lions after the loss of his "great and sole pride". Although it seems anecdotal, it is an aspect that I think is very important; are factors that we can not measure today but we must bear in mind that the situation of Asian lions in Gujarat is very good, based on their exponential and territorial increase, as well as the "new people" who are building their lives in line with the lions and all the wildlife that now cohabit in this vast territory. Nothing better for your genetic health than this territorial breadth. A small translocated population does not imply greater genetic diversity. The people of Gujarat are the faithful custodians of the Asian lions, and as such I believe that every translocation of lions of their state has to be endorsed. There is no need, no urgency, no palpable threat, only the view that translocation is a desirable end. The possible use of captive lions by the Government of Rajasthan only reinforces my view that there is a huge commercial interest in this translocation. From the strictly conservationist point of view I would be more concerned with finding a "definite new home" a huge area as in the "Thar".


From the sensationalist point of view, watching lions and tigers in combat at Kuno - Palpur - Ranthambore would be priceless.Those who enjoy the facts narrated by the big coalitions in the great Sabi Sands would be high up, and obviously I would also be interested in this show, yet this is the preventive conservation of lions? This is what the State of Rajastan wants, to promote a unique show in nature and to garner all the benefits of this show. My view today is this, but only idiots do not change their minds, and so it is still possible to see this translocation with good eyes. Doubts will always exist! and I do not usually share narrow visions .... but to the present I see more problems than solution ..... and so we follow the next chapters.


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India Rishi Online
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( This post was last modified: 04-20-2018, 12:49 PM by Rishi )

(04-20-2018, 01:27 AM)Wolverine Wrote: Have you noticed that after Indian Supreme Court statement that part of the lions must be translocated to Kuno in Gujarat number of lions started to grow with irreristable power.... If assume that this numbers are true that mean that Kuno IS DOING ITS JOB even for now the project is unsucsesfull... Same as husband is telling to his wife: "If you dont do fitness and IF you become fat I'll find another girl..." "If you dont ptotect lions... than... is coming the big fat stick..." One additional reason to keep Kuno in the future as potential option and to make Gujaratis more entusiastic to protect their lions  @Rishi

Actually, there has been some more developments lately...

There has been two petitions filed in Supreme Court last month.
One (by Ajay Dubey, wildlife activist) requesting the SC takes ation against Gujarat and Union governments for not implementing the apex court’s order for lion translocation passed in April 2013.
Another (by Wildlife Conservation Trust, Rajkot based NGO) pointing out the flaws in the plan & how it should be aborted for both tigers' & lions' sake. Don't know its hearing has been done or not...

Under the Union minister of forest and environment, a 12-member committee, formed according to the apex court’s order of April 2013, met in mid-March and the minutes, yet undisclosed, have been placed before the court.

However, WCT's petition had submitted that Gujarat has tried to put forward several arguments before the expert committee, but the committee which was bound by directions given in the judgement, was not willing to hear any arguments against translocation!

Two 9-member subcommittees have also been formed in each of the states, haeded by the respective Principal Chief Conservator of Forest (PCCF) & representation from the other state party to the translocation, Union government and Wildlife Insitute of India.
Their goal is “to ensure that all concerns of the Gujarat government are amicably resolved and lion translocation can take place without hindrance & help ensure direct involvement and regular monitoring of translocation by both the states ."

Yadvendradev Jhala of the WII said, “We have received the letter from Gujarat government to appoint a representative on the committee. The committee mandate is to ensure translocation of the lions.”

When all key issues raised by Gujarat are addressed to the state’s satisfaction, the two sub-committees will submit their report to the main committee and lion translocation should begin.

Meanwhile in Kuno...

*This image is copyright of its original author

I'll keep you guys updated.
"Everything not saved will be lost."

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Canada Wolverine Offline
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( This post was last modified: 04-21-2018, 02:25 AM by Wolverine )

there is a need of green light from Sri Narendra Modi, respected Prime Minister of India and The true Leader of the Bharateya nation, otherwise nothing will change, @Rishi , but he has to take into account the people's opinions of his own province.
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India Rishi Online
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( This post was last modified: 05-24-2018, 09:56 AM by Rishi )

(05-23-2018, 11:47 PM)Pantherinae Wrote: Is there any noteworthy progress with the relocation of lions. 

I'm personally a bit unsure about the two biggest cats sharing a Reserve, I don't say they can't at least in the past, but when there's limited space and surrounded by the urban jungle, I find it hard to see it not turning into a full out war between them! 
It's like with the cheetah and lion relationship in Africa, its been going fine for hundreds of years, but when they are forced closer together the lion has become the number 1 threat for cheetahs. I'm not comparing the tiger with a cheetah, but it shows limited space will change things quite a bit.

Alone I think the lions would struggle, but they come in prides and coalitions that might be ugly for the tiger and the lions breed like rabbits, but for Indian tourism it would be absolutely fantastic to have these two species sharing the Reserve, but would the sharing last?

Hard to say I would love to see it, but I'm also fearful that one species would wipe out the other.

Latest news (read above) is from March that the grievances are being worked out, with smooth translocation as the goal. I currently have no info on how successfully that has been going though! 

Although there is no intention to initiate such "sharing" anytime soon, status of tigers might play a vital role...

Kuno probably has tigers now & with field-work for on going tiger census already done in Kuno Palpur (see ^#322), maybe they are gonna look into the report. If it does have resident tigers, that might be a HUGE pickle for the lion relocation (great news for tigers though). Otherwise random young & inexperienced transient males won't be a threat to the prides.
 
On the other hand, if tiger presence is confirmed in Dangs forest of Gujarat (see #1,280) then that might create the possibility for MP to exchange tigers for more lions, which would be good for both Dang's tiger & Kuno's lion population!
"Everything not saved will be lost."

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