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Animal trainers
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 (01-28-2016, 11:26 PM)Polar Wrote: Again, I don't trust any of these animal trainers, no matter what animal they support. Most are quite contradicting in their views. Beatty favored the lion in public, but privately, he had several of his lions killed by tigers. Louis Roth stated that he never had a tiger lose to a lion, but lo and behold, one of the heavy-side lions killed a big tiger in a fight to the death. I think they base their opinions off the animals in what they see instead of the wild. True, some of them might get some of their animals straight from the wild, but whose not to say that some of those trainers immediately got killed or mistreated the animal according to the animal's way of life. In my opinion, the animal trainers' observations come from their resulting actions on the animals and the animals' respective responses to the trainers' actions. For instance, Beatty is well known to have let multiple lions out at once to attack a sick, small, or already injured tiger. This resulted in him calling lions "socially sophisticated" and well-versed into supporting each other, when in fact, tigers in the wild have been known to do the same to prey items. The observations of animal trainers and those of wildlife enthusiasts are very different, you know. I totally agree bro. I think a trainers credibility as a whole should be pretty fragile, if you see he is kinda contradicting himself and being a bit bias and all, he should be taken a bit lightly on his opinions. And bro bear and pckts also made some great points on trainers. You should never lose focus on the basic facts on the animals. In the trainer worle there is no right or wrong when it comes to out spoken opinions, i heard trainers say the complete opposite of what other trainers say, both fairly experienced i guess. Maybe some of them can just be making assumptions, idk. Its pretty subjective. What i also thought, ill just keep it as a personal opinion for now, is that european trainers seem less bias than american, or at least some of the american trainers that lion fans shove down your throat. I have seen many american trainers who are very professional (outside of training the animals and entertaining i am talking about). At least thats the impression @peter shows on the trainers he interviewed, but they seem more down to earth and realistic than the american ones. I mean, i havent seen a european trainer insult the tiger and say any sick lion can kill any tiger that has ever lived. And i think we can all agree on this.. something is up with beatty no doubt. I read his books and peter is right, its not just remarks when he talks lion vs tiger but all throughout his book, and its weird because he makes generalizations then later in his book he makes observations that are opposite of the generalizations. Like he literally lies and is delusional or something, some weird stuff. Also.. his comment on lioness and tigress and being a mother is a bit too far no doubt. I see tigresses squashing her own cubs all the time, since they dont watch when they stretch out for their cubs, becauss they are "nervous", right peter?  (10-03-2018, 01:59 PM)paul cooper Wrote:(01-28-2016, 11:26 PM)Polar Wrote: Again, I don't trust any of these animal trainers, no matter what animal they support. Most are quite contradicting in their views. Beatty favored the lion in public, but privately, he had several of his lions killed by tigers. Louis Roth stated that he never had a tiger lose to a lion, but lo and behold, one of the heavy-side lions killed a big tiger in a fight to the death. I think they base their opinions off the animals in what they see instead of the wild. True, some of them might get some of their animals straight from the wild, but whose not to say that some of those trainers immediately got killed or mistreated the animal according to the animal's way of life. In my opinion, the animal trainers' observations come from their resulting actions on the animals and the animals' respective responses to the trainers' actions. For instance, Beatty is well known to have let multiple lions out at once to attack a sick, small, or already injured tiger. This resulted in him calling lions "socially sophisticated" and well-versed into supporting each other, when in fact, tigers in the wild have been known to do the same to prey items. The observations of animal trainers and those of wildlife enthusiasts are very different, you know. I'm talking tigers and bears with Vegeta San right now. He showed me things I didn't know about. Before entering the department of judgement, I propose to solve a few problems at home. Reputation and all that. Important. Clean up the mess. After that, we'll talk Beatty.
COOPER
This post is a continuation of the previous post in that it will be more specific on the 'problems at home' (see the previous post). You and Vegeta San are members of Wildfact. You also are members of another forum. It is about the other forum. More specifically, it is about the way you interact with Vegeta San at the other forum. I'm referring to posts loaded with what we consider to be outright garbage over here. We have no jurisdiction outside this forum, but then we have. The reason is both of you are members of this forum as well. If one abuses the other at the other forum, it will affect the climate at this forum as well. This means we can act. Over here, you play by the book. At the other forum, your alter ego is calling the shots. We don't mind you developing in the double personality department, but it has a few disadvantages. One of them is swimming in circles. Another is zero development in the department of communication. The most important, however, is getting confronted with the results. Losing face is one of them. One of the two, to be more accurate. Over 70 years ago, a terrible war was concluded. One could say it was about human dignity and be close. Those in favour of dignity won. Over here, we do dignity. It's essential and starts with respect. In all departments at all times, no matter what. This principle enables members from all over the globe to interact about things they're interested in without watching their back all the time. The internet is a great invention, provided basic rules of engagement are respected. At a forum like this one, the natural world can only be explored when it really is at the core. In order to get there, members need to overcome a few problems typical for most of us. Referring to status and all the rest of it. Not easy, but it will result in a bit more insight into a world ignored by many. The struggle for power no doubt is mighty interesting as well, but we don't do it over here. The reason is it has no real meaning. In other words. Tell your alter ego to get lost and go for one face. Cheaper. Don't indulge in a reversed Beatty-act (lions are as interesting as tigers), but use preference in the best possible way to get to a bit of knowledge. And refrain from insult, no matter what. Tell Vegeta San you're sorry and focus on things that really matter. Not that difficult and way more interesting than joining another Starfox-reel, which seems to be an advanced practice in abuse. No direct ban and this post say you still got some credit. It's up to you, that is. 
Hi! Where do we start? I finally get here and no ones around!
Ok, if anyone has any lion/ tiger things to discuss or questions for a trainer ( former) , lets go! I worked for almost 10 years in a traveling lion/ tiger act and trained in various places; theme parks, private sanctuaries. My mentors were well known lion / tiger trainers in US, but I dont answer questions about them too readily as they are immensely private. Most other questions are fine. thanks!  (12-17-2018, 04:57 PM)Kathlee111 Wrote: Hi! Where do we start? I finally get here and no ones around!Nice to meet you Kathlee111, are you professional animal trainer? if so I would appreciate it that hoping you can share your work experience with us !!!  (12-17-2018, 04:57 PM)Kathlee111 Wrote: Hi! Where do we start? I finally get here and no ones around! I'll go first... 1. Did you ever work a mixed cat act and if so, what were your most notable experiences with it? 2.Which cat did you find the most dangerous to work with and for what reasons? 3.Do you notice intelligence differences between the species? 4.How would you determine which sub species of cat you have? I.E. Did you have stud books available, breeder backstories or other means? 5.Which cat do you consider the largest and who was the largest cat you had period and what was his weight? 6.How many big cats have you worked with and which species? Thanks for your time. (12-17-2018, 04:57 PM)Kathlee111 Wrote: Hi! Where do we start? I finally get here and no ones around! Welcome to the forum, Kathlee! Not many of our members have firsthand experience with captive big cats, meaning your opinion will be of interest for many. Here's 21 questions (...) to start. Please don't feel obliged to answer all. Just pick one or two you like. Our members will let you know in what direction we will go. I hope we can get to a few debates. Many thanks for the effort on behalf of all. 01 - In what way did you enter the world of animal training? 02 - How long did it take you to bridge the gap between a decision and working with animals? 03 - What was the first thing you noticed in each of the big cat species? 04 - Are the differences you saw a result of individualism or would you say their way of thinking and acting is strongly related to species? 05 - Do adults have an outspoken personality? In what way are they, in this respect, different from, say, humans? 06 - In what way do big cats communicate to humans? 07 - Did you have to adapt in order to work with them? How did it make you feel? Any differences between species? 08 - As a former trainer, what will you remember most? And what not? 09 - What made you decide to step out? 10 - I interviewed a number of trainers. Some had mixed acts, whereas others worked with one species only. Some had big adults, whereas others worked with youngsters, adolescents or old animals. Some were trainers, whereas other were performers. I also interviewed two directors of training facilities. Everyone had a different opinion, but the directors agreed most of the time as they had seen hundreds of animals. Could you tell us a bit about the animals you worked with? Age, character and things like that. How many? 11 - Did you, apart from your mentors, talk lion or tiger with other trainers? If yes, did they have similar opinions? 12 - Did you talk to trainers who worked with big cats and bears? What did they see? 13 - Can you describe each of the species in a nutshell? Behavior. Character. Essentials. 14 - Do big cats distinguish between male and female trainers? If so, in what way? 15 - Any indication of average weights of adults? 16 - Any differences between tiger subspecies? Is gender important? 17 - Do big cats tolerate each other? Any differences between species in this respect? 18 - Did you like one species in particular? Favorite individuals? 19 - Members of animals forum enjoy lion and tiger debates in particular. Could you describe the differences between both? Is gender important in this respect? 20 - Did you ever see wild big cats or talk to people who had? In what way are their captive relatives different? 21 - What's your opinion on the decision to exclude exotic animals from circuses? (12-05-2015, 12:26 AM)peter Wrote:Peter, the "Sumatran Amurs"means Amurs and Sumatran's hybrid generation ?(12-05-2015, 12:03 AM)Pckts Wrote: Thanks @peter, I was curious because I wondered if they were able to stay with that family dynamic as they got older. Just wondering if it would turn into a similar situation compared to coalition male lions where the dominate one would earn his place via fighting then proceed to get the females or would it be different like may be they would alternate mating rights?
I will try to answer all your questions the best I can, it may take me awhile as I have limited time online right now. I will start with my background and then talk about the individual cats. This is my standard background info that I copy/ pasted here, but I will go into a little more detail and say my mentors were Ron Whitfield and Wayne Ragen..Wayne Ragen, who both had alot of experience in mixed acts. Whitfield trained all kinds of animals but Wayne was my primary teacher/ mentor.
I worked in a traveling educational lion/tiger program and I also lived with my cats on a ranch in the off season. We were a very small outfit with five tigers and seven lions. Working with Big Cats was the fufillment of my childhood dream, and I was very lucky to have great mentors; without their tutelage, I'm sure I wouldn't have survived. It took serious work and focused study to get next to these animals. I was a volunteer, then an apprentice, for many years. I had seen a lion / tiger show as a kid and knew I would have to work with these animals or die trying. It was years before I got a break, but I was ready. As wonderful as every day was, it was terrifying at times. It was also hard work , around the clock. You have no personal life! Wild animals cannot be tamed. They can be trained, through positive reinforcement and over time, to do simple behaviors on cue. We mainly worked behaviors the cats would do naturally- sit, stay, lie down. It helped when doing health checks, and for our own interaction with the cats. They liked the attention and the stimulation was good for them. But, big cats are unpredictable, and at any time can go off script. Attacks can be life threatening, and injuries were common. I never trusted them, even though I raised them from tiny cubs. They tolerated me , bonded with me, and expected me to stay out of their space when they tired of me. They could go from affection to aggression in an instant. I loved and treasured our cats, and we treated them like royalty. Our lives revolved around their needs. The ranch had an enormous lake for the tigers to swim and a grassy island in the center for them to play. All the tigers had their own separate pools in their enclosures as well. We walked the cats regularly in the desert, and we interacted with them daily in their very large enclosures. They were fed the very best diet and supplements, plus an abundance of treats. They had a great vet, who made regular check -up visits, but we never medicated them or surgically altered them. (One of our female tigers was an exception; she had an oviohysterectomy at UCDavis to relieve her from bad heat cycles.) They were healthy and happy. Ultimately, our lions and tigers were respected for the wild animals that they were. We expected them to act like lions and tigers. We kept them safe from outside disturbances. We did not allow anyone who was not an invited guest or friend to the ranch to see them, either. It was not a public attraction. We knew the risks, and we knew the kind of injuries the cats were capable of inflicting. I'd be lying if I said there were not moments when I was scared shitless, wondering why I didn't just get a normal life. But I loved every minute with my animals, and never had a serious injury. I had some scary encounters, but I knew when to get away and sometimes, I just got lucky. I owe my life to my mentors, our exceptionally smart tigers, and a lot of good luck. I can take credit for not showing how scared I was sometimes, and for not doing anything totally stupid. There were times I did screw up, and I always paid the price. My tigers mainly and my lion were not forgiving of my mistakes. Their lessons were painful. Chaos will happen, despite my being well- prepared and well- informed. I had studied behavior for years before actually working hands -on with live cats, yet I knew- you have to be ready for anything. My experience with the cats was what I had always wanted in my life. It was an inflexible goal, and I am incredibly lucky and proud I got to achieve it. I miss my cats every day, and I see them frequently in my dreams at night. They were beautiful. Life with them was everything I had hoped it would be.and more, and for that I will always be grateful.  (12-21-2018, 07:19 AM)Kathlee111 Wrote: I will try to answer all your questions the best I can, it may take me awhile as I have limited time online right now. I will start with my background and then talk about the individual cats. This is my standard background info that I copy/ pasted here, but I will go into a little more detail and say my mentors were Ron Whitfield and Wayne Ragen..Wayne Ragen, who both had alot of experience in mixed acts. Whitfield trained all kinds of animals but Wayne was my primary teacher/ mentor. I just wanted to say, that interesting to read and thank you for telling about your experiences. It is especially interesting to hear about things from a person, who has lived with these species and obviously loves both equally :) I have never understood how some people can adore one and then mock other. Tigers and lions are both simply incredible and fascinating creatures deserving respect from all :) 
That was nice read @Kathlee111
We have lot of questions and hope you will not mind answering them.. We would like to start with Packts and Peter questions first. Off-course, do it when you have free time. we all love to talk about wild animals. 
@Kathlee111 :
About #146: fascinating insight ! You were living with and for beautiful cats which, here, we all admire. I'm just impatiently waiting for the rest... (12-21-2018, 07:19 AM)Kathlee111 Wrote: I will try to answer all your questions the best I can, it may take me awhile as I have limited time online right now. I will start with my background and then talk about the individual cats. This is my standard background info that I copy/ pasted here, but I will go into a little more detail and say my mentors were Ron Whitfield and Wayne Ragen..Wayne Ragen, who both had alot of experience in mixed acts. Whitfield trained all kinds of animals but Wayne was my primary teacher/ mentor. From the Soul of Man. Someone able to write like that should consider writing a book, Kathlee. Great post! |
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