There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
--- Peter Broekhuijsen ---

  • 5 Vote(s) - 2.4 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Animal Strength Feats

Belgium Luipaard Offline
Leopard enthusiast
***

(03-27-2021, 10:40 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(03-27-2021, 08:28 PM)Luipaard Wrote: You two are aware that you cannot really determine this pound for pound ranking right? This is highly subjective and thus my own opinion. It's based on the fact that it's the smallest of the four big cats yet have accomplished feats that are unmatched.

This is quite the contradictory statement.
First you say you cannot determine a lb for lb ranking then say it's subjective and only your opinion then finally you go on to say the "fact" that the smallest of the big 4 accomplished feats that are unmatched.

So which is it, opinion, undetermined or fact?

First off, this claim alone is wrong  "the smallest of the four big cats yet have accomplished feats that are unmatched."

How you come to the conclusion that dragging an impala sized carcass up a tree is more impressive than dragging a 800kg Bovine or a 100kg Caiman up a steep muddy slope through dense grass.

If you want to stick with it being your opinion, that's fine but like I've already shown you, you're interpreting lb for lb wrong to begin with.


It's fairly easy to see just given the eye test between these cats.
The Leopard is the least physically impressive of the 4, it's build is much more gracile than the other 3, this isn't only true for the males but also the females.  Try finding a Female Leopard that compares to the big Tigress, Lioness and Jaguars, you can't. This isn't to take anything away from the Leopard, it's just easily noticeable.

Quote:First you say you cannot determine a lb for lb ranking then say it's subjective and only your opinion then finally you go on to say the "fact" that the smallest of the big 4 accomplished feats that are unmatched.

Well yes it is a fact that it's the smallest of the big cats and it is a fact that none of the other three have dragged prey 2-3 times its own bodyweight vertically up a tree.

Quote:How you come to the conclusion that dragging an impala sized carcass up a tree is more impressive than dragging a 800kg Bovine or a 100kg Caiman up a steep muddy slope through dense grass.

You took the least impressive case vs the most impressive case for your comparison. They have dragged much heavier prey than an impala-sized one and you know this; young giraffes, rhino calves, young buffalo, young zebra's, ... Carrying this straight up a tree requires a serious amount of strength from your jaws, forelimbs and neck. Lion whisperer Kevin Richardson stated that a lion could not do the equivalent.


Quote:It's fairly easy to see just given the eye test between these cats. The Leopard is the least physically impressive of the 4, it's build is much more gracile than the other 3, this isn't only true for the males but also the females.  Try finding a Female Leopard that compares to the big Tigress, Lioness and Jaguars, you can't. This isn't to take anything away from the Leopard, it's just easily noticeable.

Male leopards are everything but gracile hence why they're able to take down tough and robust prey such as wild boar, warthog and red river hog. And for some leopards this on a regular basis. And how are they least impressive when they possess the most extreme sexual dimorphism among the big cats? The males constantly dwarf the females because they have a different build. Take a look at their broad heads or massive bulking neck. That's a real eye test.
Reply

Balam Offline
Jaguar Enthusiast
*****

Quote:Well yes it is a fact that it's the smallest of the big cats and it is a fact that none of the other three have dragged prey 2-3 times its own bodyweight vertically up a tree.

They don't because they don't have to, they aren't subordinates to other larger carnivores across their range. It's called being an apex predator.

Quote:Male leopards are everything but gracile hence why they're able to take down tough and robust prey such as wild boar, warthog and red river hog. And for some leopards this on a regular basis

Robusticity index studies that show empirical data and numbers speak for themselves. Killing suids has no correlation whatsoever with being a robust cat. It's an undeniably fact that the P. pardus is the most gracile of the pantherines. This makes sense as an adaptation for an animal that is arboreal and needs to have a lighter build for flexibility and agility. You can become a master in something without compromising in other areas, and leopards compromised in the robustness/size department (hence why you don't see 100+ kg leopards).
Quote:And how are they least impressive when they possess the most extreme sexual dimorphism among the big cats? The males constantly dwarf the females because they have a different build. Take a look at their broad heads or massive bulking neck. That's a real eye test

No they don't, Llanos jaguars posses a more drastic weight difference between the sexes than Persian leopards, for example. But nonetheless, the drastic sexual dimorphism has nothing to do with the overall morphology of the species. Another bizarre statement backed up by personal interpretations rather than solid scientific data.
1 user Likes Balam's post
Reply

United States Pckts Offline
Bigcat Enthusiast
******

(03-29-2021, 01:17 PM)Luipaard Wrote:
(03-27-2021, 10:40 PM)Pckts Wrote:
(03-27-2021, 08:28 PM)Luipaard Wrote: You two are aware that you cannot really determine this pound for pound ranking right? This is highly subjective and thus my own opinion. It's based on the fact that it's the smallest of the four big cats yet have accomplished feats that are unmatched.

This is quite the contradictory statement.
First you say you cannot determine a lb for lb ranking then say it's subjective and only your opinion then finally you go on to say the "fact" that the smallest of the big 4 accomplished feats that are unmatched.

So which is it, opinion, undetermined or fact?

First off, this claim alone is wrong  "the smallest of the four big cats yet have accomplished feats that are unmatched."

How you come to the conclusion that dragging an impala sized carcass up a tree is more impressive than dragging a 800kg Bovine or a 100kg Caiman up a steep muddy slope through dense grass.

If you want to stick with it being your opinion, that's fine but like I've already shown you, you're interpreting lb for lb wrong to begin with.


It's fairly easy to see just given the eye test between these cats.
The Leopard is the least physically impressive of the 4, it's build is much more gracile than the other 3, this isn't only true for the males but also the females.  Try finding a Female Leopard that compares to the big Tigress, Lioness and Jaguars, you can't. This isn't to take anything away from the Leopard, it's just easily noticeable.

Quote:First you say you cannot determine a lb for lb ranking then say it's subjective and only your opinion then finally you go on to say the "fact" that the smallest of the big 4 accomplished feats that are unmatched.

Well yes it is a fact that it's the smallest of the big cats and it is a fact that none of the other three have dragged prey 2-3 times its own bodyweight vertically up a tree.

Quote:How you come to the conclusion that dragging an impala sized carcass up a tree is more impressive than dragging a 800kg Bovine or a 100kg Caiman up a steep muddy slope through dense grass.

You took the least impressive case vs the most impressive case for your comparison. They have dragged much heavier prey than an impala-sized one and you know this; young giraffes, rhino calves, young buffalo, young zebra's, ... Carrying this straight up a tree requires a serious amount of strength from your jaws, forelimbs and neck. Lion whisperer Kevin Richardson stated that a lion could not do the equivalent.


Quote:It's fairly easy to see just given the eye test between these cats. The Leopard is the least physically impressive of the 4, it's build is much more gracile than the other 3, this isn't only true for the males but also the females.  Try finding a Female Leopard that compares to the big Tigress, Lioness and Jaguars, you can't. This isn't to take anything away from the Leopard, it's just easily noticeable.

Male leopards are everything but gracile hence why they're able to take down tough and robust prey such as wild boar, warthog and red river hog. And for some leopards this on a regular basis. And how are they least impressive when they possess the most extreme sexual dimorphism among the big cats? The males constantly dwarf the females because they have a different build. Take a look at their broad heads or massive bulking neck. That's a real eye test.

“dragged prey 2-3 times its own bodyweight vertically up a tree.”

No Leopard is hoisting a kill 2-3 times their own body weight up a tree. 

“You took the least impressive case vs the most impressive case for your comparison. They have dragged much heavier prey than an impala-sized one and you know this; young giraffes, rhino calves, young buffalo, young zebra's, ... Carrying this straight up a tree requires a serious amount of strength from your jaws, forelimbs and neck. Lion whisperer Kevin Richardson stated that a lion could not do the equivalent.”

That is literally the most hunted prey for either cat and it’s a common occurrence. Dragging calves of large animals doesn’t mean they are large and the fact that every single calf you named was either eaten or smaller than the Leopard isn’t impressive.

And why would a Lion be as proficient at tree climbing as a Leoprd? They can barely climb a tree on their own and once again you need to read post #296 again.

https://www.taylorsstrength.co.uk/powerlifting-formulas-is-wilks-best-and-what-are-the-alternatives/


Male leopards are everything but gracile hence why they're able to take down tough and robust prey such as wild boar, warthog and red river hog. And for some leopards this on a regular basis. And how are they least impressive when they possess the most extreme sexual dimorphism among the big cats? The males constantly dwarf the females because they have a different build. Take a look at their broad heads or massive bulking neck. That's a real eye test.”

Male Leopards are the most gracile of the big 4, there’s no debating that. Hence why they have the smallest chest and limb girth per body length. They also have the smallest body weight to frame size, they’re just not built with the same bulk.
The only area where they are “exceptional” is their neck and that isn’t the actual case as their neck size is inflated by a dewlap that has nothing to do with strength or muscle, it’s just fat.

Next is that their dimorphism isn’t impressive, they have the most unimpressive females of the big 4 and with genetics you want the best of both sexes. Why do you think the locations with the largest males also has the largest females? You want big genes from both. 

It’s pretty simple, I can post many videos of Leopards in tug o wars with hyena and almost all end in stalemates. If Leopards were exceptionally strong for their weight than the hyena should be dragged along like a rag doll but of course that’s not the case.

A big cat is generally built with the same morphology and exceptional strength in certain areas will shine through in their muscle distribution. Where exactly does a Leopards muscle composition shine through?
Reply

Belgium Luipaard Offline
Leopard enthusiast
***
( This post was last modified: 03-30-2021, 02:02 PM by Luipaard )

(03-29-2021, 04:20 PM)Balam Wrote:
Quote:Well yes it is a fact that it's the smallest of the big cats and it is a fact that none of the other three have dragged prey 2-3 times its own bodyweight vertically up a tree.

They don't because they don't have to, they aren't subordinates to other larger carnivores across their range. It's called being an apex predator.

Quote:Male leopards are everything but gracile hence why they're able to take down tough and robust prey such as wild boar, warthog and red river hog. And for some leopards this on a regular basis

Robusticity index studies that show empirical data and numbers speak for themselves. Killing suids has no correlation whatsoever with being a robust cat. It's an undeniably fact that the P. pardus is the most gracile of the pantherines. This makes sense as an adaptation for an animal that is arboreal and needs to have a lighter build for flexibility and agility. You can become a master in something without compromising in other areas, and leopards compromised in the robustness/size department (hence why you don't see 100+ kg leopards).
Quote:And how are they least impressive when they possess the most extreme sexual dimorphism among the big cats? The males constantly dwarf the females because they have a different build. Take a look at their broad heads or massive bulking neck. That's a real eye test

No they don't, Llanos jaguars posses a more drastic weight difference between the sexes than Persian leopards, for example. But nonetheless, the drastic sexual dimorphism has nothing to do with the overall morphology of the species. Another bizarre statement backed up by personal interpretations rather than solid scientific data.

Quote:They don't because they don't have to, they aren't subordinates to other larger carnivores across their range. It's called being an apex predator.

Guess what? There's plenty of leopard populations who are an apex predator and they still now and then drag prey up a tree;

Sri Lankan leopard with water buffalo calf:

*This image is copyright of its original author


Quote:Robusticity index studies that show empirical data and numbers speak for themselves. It's an undeniably fact that the P. pardus is the most gracile of the pantherines.

Yet male leopards are comparable to the other pantherines at equal size. Female leopards if another story but as explained before; because sexual dimorphism.

Quote:Killing suids has no correlation whatsoever with being a robust cat.


Yes it does; killing suids requires brute strength because of their robustness and temperament. This is why the most robust leopard populations are the ones who frequently tackle suids (i.e. Central African leopards and red river hogs, Persian leopards and wild boar).

Quote:This makes sense as an adaptation for an animal that is arboreal and needs to have a lighter build for flexibility and agility.

Again, Central African and Persian leopards don't live an arboreal life hence why they're the biggest in the world and the most robust with also the biggest skulls. It's because they're the apex predator and frequently tackle large and tough prey. 
According to Phillip Henschel, Central African (Gabonese ones in this case) live a life comparable to Pantanal jaguars as they heavily predate upon reptilians:

Quote:leopards in Gabon are also known to prey on crocodiles, feed on marine turtles, crack open forest tortoises, and prey on giant pangolin.

It's no coincidence that these leopards have skulls at extremes that approach the dimensions of Pantanal male jaguars who weigh 100kg or is it now 110kg?

Quote:leopards compromised in the robustness/size department (hence why you don't see 100+ kg leopards).


That's a 'bizarre statement backed up by personal interpretations rather than solid scientific data' isn't it. According to you Central American jaguars are not robust compared to most South American jaguars as they don't weigh more than 100kg. But looking at camera trap footage of Belizean, Mexican and Costa Rican jaguars, I still notice very robust jaguars but just not well fed with cattle like the Pantanal jaguars. 

Leopards do not have to weigh more than 100kg in order to be robust or comparable to jaguars, lions or tigers. If you scale them to the same size (e.g. same size of a leopard) they will be very similar in dimensions and the difference will be marginal. Each and every cat will dominate a particular department such as the neck department for leopards, skull department for jaguars and limb department for lions/tigers.

Quote:No they don't, Llanos jaguars posses a more drastic weight difference between the sexes than Persian leopards, for example.

Comparing Llanos jaguars and Persian leopards with each other is comparing two specific populations with each other. Overall the leopard possesses the most sexual dimorphism. I already proved it via skull data.

Quote:But nonetheless, the drastic sexual dimorphism has nothing to do with the overall morphology of the species.

Yes it does; female leopards are powerful but gracile. Adapted to tackle light and nimble prey whereas the males are built to tackle large and tough prey which results in a much, much heavier build. The best and most extreme example will be Gabonese leopards who live a different life; the females are still lightweight but not arboreal and they target the duikers in the area or rodents whereas the males primarily go for red river hog and in some sites even young adult forest buffalo.

The difference couldn't be more pronounced, even you have to agree:


*This image is copyright of its original author
Reply

Balam Offline
Jaguar Enthusiast
*****
( This post was last modified: 03-30-2021, 07:32 PM by Balam )

(03-30-2021, 01:34 PM)Luipaard Wrote:
(03-29-2021, 04:20 PM)Balam Wrote:
Quote:Well yes it is a fact that it's the smallest of the big cats and it is a fact that none of the other three have dragged prey 2-3 times its own bodyweight vertically up a tree.

They don't because they don't have to, they aren't subordinates to other larger carnivores across their range. It's called being an apex predator.

Quote:Male leopards are everything but gracile hence why they're able to take down tough and robust prey such as wild boar, warthog and red river hog. And for some leopards this on a regular basis

Robusticity index studies that show empirical data and numbers speak for themselves. Killing suids has no correlation whatsoever with being a robust cat. It's an undeniably fact that the P. pardus is the most gracile of the pantherines. This makes sense as an adaptation for an animal that is arboreal and needs to have a lighter build for flexibility and agility. You can become a master in something without compromising in other areas, and leopards compromised in the robustness/size department (hence why you don't see 100+ kg leopards).
Quote:And how are they least impressive when they possess the most extreme sexual dimorphism among the big cats? The males constantly dwarf the females because they have a different build. Take a look at their broad heads or massive bulking neck. That's a real eye test

No they don't, Llanos jaguars posses a more drastic weight difference between the sexes than Persian leopards, for example. But nonetheless, the drastic sexual dimorphism has nothing to do with the overall morphology of the species. Another bizarre statement backed up by personal interpretations rather than solid scientific data.

Quote:They don't because they don't have to, they aren't subordinates to other larger carnivores across their range. It's called being an apex predator.

Guess what? There's plenty of leopard populations who are an apex predator and they still now and then drag prey up a tree;

Sri Lankan leopard with water buffalo calf:

*This image is copyright of its original author


Quote:Robusticity index studies that show empirical data and numbers speak for themselves. It's an undeniably fact that the P. pardus is the most gracile of the pantherines.

Yet male leopards are comparable to the other pantherines at equal size. Female leopards if another story but as explained before; because sexual dimorphism.

Quote:Killing suids has no correlation whatsoever with being a robust cat.


Yes it does; killing suids requires brute strength because of their robustness and temperament. This is why the most robust leopard populations are the ones who frequently tackle suids (i.e. Central African leopards and red river hogs, Persian leopards and wild boar).

Quote:This makes sense as an adaptation for an animal that is arboreal and needs to have a lighter build for flexibility and agility.




Again, Central African and Persian leopards don't live an arboreal life hence why they're the biggest in the world and the most robust with also the biggest skulls. It's because they're the apex predator and frequently tackle large and tough prey. 
According to Phillip Henschel, Central African (Gabonese ones in this case) live a life comparable to Pantanal jaguars as they heavily predate upon reptilians:
Quote:leopards in Gabon are also known to prey on crocodiles, feed on marine turtles, crack open forest tortoises, and prey on giant pangolin.

It's no coincidence that these leopards have skulls at extremes that approach the dimensions of Pantanal male jaguars who weigh 100kg or is it now 110kg?

Quote:leopards compromised in the robustness/size department (hence why you don't see 100+ kg leopards).


That's a 'bizarre statement backed up by personal interpretations rather than solid scientific data' isn't it. According to you Central American jaguars are not robust compared to most South American jaguars as they don't weigh more than 100kg. But looking at camera trap footage of Belizean, Mexican and Costa Rican jaguars, I still notice very robust jaguars but just not well fed with cattle like the Pantanal jaguars. 

Leopards do not have to weigh more than 100kg in order to be robust or comparable to jaguars, lions or tigers. If you scale them to the same size (e.g. same size of a leopard) they will be very similar in dimensions and the difference will be marginal. Each and every cat will dominate a particular department such as the neck department for leopards, skull department for jaguars and limb department for lions/tigers.

Quote:No they don't, Llanos jaguars posses a more drastic weight difference between the sexes than Persian leopards, for example.

Comparing Llanos jaguars and Persian leopards with each other is comparing two specific populations with each other. Overall the leopard possesses the most sexual dimorphism. I already proved it via skull data.

Quote:But nonetheless, the drastic sexual dimorphism has nothing to do with the overall morphology of the species.

Yes it does; female leopards are powerful but gracile. Adapted to tackle light and nimble prey whereas the males are built to tackle large and tough prey which results in a much, much heavier build. The best and most extreme example will be Gabonese leopards who live a different live; the females are still lightweight but not arboreal and they target the duikers in the area or rodents whereas the males primarily go for red river hog and in some sites even young adult forest buffalo.

The difference couldn't be more pronounced, even you have to agree:


*This image is copyright of its original author

Quote:Guess what? There's plenty of leopard populations who are an apex predator and they still now and then drag prey up a tree; Sri Lankan leopard with water buffalo calf:
 
I already knew you were going to say this, so predictable that the point flies over your head. Sri Lankan leopards don't hoist their prey up trees nearly on the same rate as leopards who live alongside larger carnivores. But that's not the point, the point is that comparing the strength of big cats based on whether they hoist up prey on trees or not makes no sense because that is behavioral trait specific to leopards developed as a result of living subordinate to other larger carnivores for thousands of years. Lions, tiger and jaguars are just as capable of pulling large amounts of mass in different ways, they just don't have the need to hoist carcasses up trees because they're not subordinates in their environments.

Quote:Yet male leopards are comparable to the other pantherines at equal size. Female leopards if another story but as explained before; because sexual dimorphism.

Male leopards are at the bottom of nearly all the index calculations for bone robusticity on comparison to the rest of the pantherines, do I have to post the list here? 

Quote:Yes it does; killing suids requires brute strength because of their robustness and temperament. This is why the most robust leopard populations are the ones who frequently tackle suids (i.e. Central African leopards and red river hogs, Persian leopards and wild boar).

Again, the point flying all over your head. When speaking in scientific terms you cannot deduct robusticity based on hunting feats of suids, what part are your not getting? Not to mention that suids of different kinds are targeted just as much by savannah leopards.

Quote:Again, Central African and Persian leopards don't live an arboreal life hence why they're the biggest in the world and the most robust with also the biggest skulls. It's because they're the apex predator and frequently tackle large and tough prey. 
Quote:According to Phillip Henschel, Central African (Gabonese ones in this case) live a life comparable to Pantanal jaguars as they heavily predate upon reptilians:

Congratulations on proving my previous point, not all leopards live an arboreal lifestyle and don't hoist their prey items on trees, that still doesn't change their morphological adaptations gathered through hundreds of thousands of years of evolution that made them the most gracile of the big cats.

Pantanal jaguars prey primarily on crocodilians, Central African leopards on duikers and hogs, they are not the same. Hence why the width/length ratio of Central African leopards skulls is so poor compared to Pantanal jaguars, there is in fact no comparison at all.

Quote:It's no coincidence that these leopards have skulls at extremes that approach the dimensions of Pantanal male jaguars who weigh 100kg or is it now 110kg?

It's not a surprise that you're still pushing this lie/fantasy of yours considering you're still pushing the lie of your imaginary 115 kg leopard.

The skull size of a Llanos jaguar with a weight of 113 kg was 31,25 cm long and 22,50 cm wide, dimensions that no leopard is ever approaching.

I'm going to repeat myself once again to you: the skulls of Central/West African leopards compare in length to male Central American jaguars, and in width to female Central American jaguars on average. Despite jaguars having more proportionally shorter skull, Pantanal jaguars still vastly surpass the average length of Central African leopards even in the absolutes, and completely dwarf them in width. The largest skull of a Persian leopard still did not reach the same length of an average Pantanal jaguar and the width was a far cry from the width of an average Pantanal jaguar. Jaguars also have taller and heavier/denser skulls and dentition. You cannot assume that a leopard will weight the same as a Pantanal jaguar even if we were to agree to your claims on skull values because they are different species with different correlations of skull size and overall mass.

Quote:That's a 'bizarre statement backed up by personal interpretations rather than solid scientific data' isn't it. According to you Central American jaguars are not robust compared to most South American jaguars as they don't weigh more than 100kg. But looking at camera trap footage of Belizean, Mexican and Costa Rican jaguars, I still notice very robust jaguars but just not well fed with cattle like the Pantanal jaguars. 


Huh? Where did I say that Central American jaguars were not robust? Care to show this? Not to mention Pantanal jaguars seldomly feed on cattle, they just happen to grow bigger because they have readily access to medium-sized abundant prey, whereas leopards that grow half their size do have access to cattle-sized ungulates across their range, oops!

Quote:Leopards do not have to weigh more than 100kg in order to be robust or comparable to jaguars, lions or tigers. If you scale them to the same size (e.g. same size of a leopard) they will be very similar in dimensions and the difference will be marginal. Each and every cat will dominate a particular department such as the neck department for leopards, skull department for jaguars and limb department for lions/tigers.

Again, robusticity indexes which divide the length of bones by their width to arrive to a percentage are not determined by size, that is why it is an index. If you were to scale leopards to the size of the other larger pantherines they would still be the more gracile ones because their bones are less robust.

This is why Central American/Mexican jaguars who are some of the few jaguars that overlap in size with leopards all around are significantly more robust and stout all around. Jaguar morphology is consistent throughout, as it is with leopards.

Quote:The difference couldn't be more pronounced, even you have to agree:

I'm getting tired of arguing with you because you clearly don't understand a single point I'm making and it's exhausting. The drastic sexual dimorphism between one population of felids doesn't directly correlate to the males of said felids being comparable to completely different species known to be more robust. Flattering camera pictures is just another unscientific way for you to hold on to straws.
Reply

Brazil Dark Jaguar Offline
Jaguar Enthusiast
*****


*This image is copyright of its original author





*This image is copyright of its original author





*This image is copyright of its original author







credits: Allan Franco

*This image is copyright of its original author
3 users Like Dark Jaguar's post
Reply






Users browsing this thread:
3 Guest(s)

About Us
Go Social     Subscribe  

Welcome to WILDFACT forum, a website that focuses on sharing the joy that wildlife has on offer. We welcome all wildlife lovers to join us in sharing that joy. As a member you can share your research, knowledge and experience on animals with the community.
wildfact.com is intended to serve as an online resource for wildlife lovers of all skill levels from beginners to professionals and from all fields that belong to wildlife anyhow. Our focus area is wild animals from all over world. Content generated here will help showcase the work of wildlife experts and lovers to the world. We believe by the help of your informative article and content we will succeed to educate the world, how these beautiful animals are important to survival of all man kind.
Many thanks for visiting wildfact.com. We hope you will keep visiting wildfact regularly and will refer other members who have passion for wildlife.

Forum software by © MyBB