Size comparisons

[GuateGojira]

(08-25-2019, 09:56 PM)chui_ Wrote:

(07-15-2019, 07:56 PM)GuateGojira Wrote: I will add something in this point. I had a direct conversation with Dr Hoogesteijn about the weight of the large jaguar of 148 kg. He mention that he used bait to capture him, so I told him that probably the weight of the animal was between 130 - 140 kg, however he corrected me and he told me that they used chickens to attract the jaguars so he personally told me that the amount eat by the jaguar was only about 4-5 kg, so the empty belly weight of that Pantanal jaguar was probably of no less than 143 kg, based on this evidence. As far I know, this is still the scientific record of any jaguar in the world.

In my exchange with Dr Hoogensteijn he stated that the huge 148kg jaguar had approx 10-15kg of meat in the stomach which would indicate an empty stomach weight of around 133-138kg (around 300lbs basically). The capture of this jaguar was also recorded on video which was on youtube where the researchers clearly state he appeared fat, having just eaten, although not fully gorged. Given that observation and what we know about the weights of jaguars, an empty stomach weight of 143kg seems unlikely IMO. 

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In any case, a jaguar of 130kg or more should be considered very exceptional considering it will be over 30% heavier than the mean for the largest populations, equivalent to a 260kg+ lion. It’s important to note that the most comprehensive data on the weights of Pantanal jaguars comes from Tony Almeida, who measured nearly 50 adult male jaguars over a span of 2 decades in the Pantanal yet none of them reached 130kgs. He was particularly careful with important variables such as stomach content, accuracy of the weighing scale, and weighing the animal immediately after death.

Quote:On the leopard side, we have may samples from many countries, to be fair the sample from Central Africa is very poor and large skulls from the area suggest big animals, but are not bigger than those from Persia region. Leopards from 90 kg has been reported from South Africa, but included stomach content (Sunquist & Sunquist, 2002) and as far I know the heaviest leopards came from Iran with a maximum of 91 kg. I don't know if they bait the leopards to be honest, but remember that they can also use the snare method to campture them. Dr Farhadinia says that based in his studies the leopards of Iran are the largest of the world in this moment. From here came the record of the leopard of 115 kg which was exceptional in any sence as any leopard in hunting or sceintific records, reached that weight, but if includes stomach contect or not, it is not reported and I see that some people do not belive on it, althought it was confirmed by scientists. If we use the scientific records as base, between 70 to 80 kg is already a large male leopard and few animals surpass that range, if we exclude stomach content. I have a record from a leopard in India of over 80 kg, but Dr Atreya says that includes stomach content. The heaviest leopard on records, appart from the big male from Iran, is a male from Namibia that weighed 96 kg, apparently with no stomach content (Brain, 1981). From a sample of 77 males of diferent areas the heaviest male was of 71.3 kg from Zimbabwe, but to be fair the figures of Kruger NP just includes averages and the extremes, which I rememeber was more than 70 kg. 

The part in the Sunquists' book about 90kg leopards was in reference to Peter Turnbull-Kemp's statement (in fact the same page I posted in my above post) - he stated that he was aware of 7 records of leopards recorded at over 200lbs which he considered reliable but that only one was confirmed to be with empty stomach, 3 had at least some food in the stomach, and no info was available on the stomach content of the remaining 3. No where did he say that any of these leopards were from South Africa or that South African leopards are particularly big. The biggest leopard he ever saw was actually from Cameroon at 8'5" long between pegs but was not weighed it seems. His opinion was that leopards are biggest in the equatorial forests of Africa (he worked as a game warden in Nigeria, Sudan, South Africa, and Zimbabwe). Also note that his book is from 1967 - a lot more data on the weights of leopards has been recorded since of course (for example the 211lb live Namibian leopard and the 204lb hunted leopard from Mount Kenya were recorded after his book) .

A lot of the leopards in the published sample (mean 65.8kg, n21) from Iran were not live captured animals but were actually leopards which were found killed - caught in poachers snares, shot by farmers, killed in road kills etc. So capturing method is mostly irrelevant. IMO the 115kg weight is probably an error but it doesn't really matter because it was excluded from the dataset anyway by Dr Farhadinia.

1- About the weight of the 148 kg Jaguar:
I had many conversations  with Dr Rafael Hoogesteijn and I can tell you that he personally told me that the bait was no more than 4-5 kg and here is his email:

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The email is in Spanish, but as you can see, I also told him that the weight "empty" was probably of about 130 kg, but he corrected me. Also, if in the video (which I had saw and posted here in the past) says that it appeared fat, in any case mention that it was gorged, or full or anything, it just mention "fat" and that is all (certainly I will see the video again). If De Almeida (a very accurate observer) did not found any jaguar larger than 120 kg, that doesn't mean that in modern times bigger jaguars do not exist, exceptional or not, so the record of c.140 kg "empty, at least" stands very well for Pantanal jaguars.

2- Sunquist and the leopards of South Africa:
I don't have the original document of Peter Turnbull-Kemp, so I just quoted what Sunquist & Sunquist (2002). However I remembered that they say "South Africa" but I was just quoting from memory and now that I checked they just say "African male leopards" overall:

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So my mistake. Actually is Nowell & Jackson (1996) who said that leopards in South Africa, specifically in Kruger NP, weighed over 91 kg:

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There is a tendency in popular litterature that leopards in South Africa did reached the 90 kg, but based in your statements this is without justification.

3- On the Persian leopards:
I checked the document "Patterns of sexual dimorphism in the Persian Leopard (Panthera pardus saxicolor) and implications for sex differentiation" and I could not found any reference that the measurements and weights were taken from specimens that were killed. I think is posible as it says that they use several sources, but can you show the confirmation of your specific statements please? Now, about the method of capture, I mentioned because, as you can see, the other posters are debating about the reliability of the records from Iran, so I clearly stated that I don't know the capture methods and I guess that those captured where with snares, after all in my conversations with Dr Farhadinia I just asked him about the measuring methods, not about the origin of the specimens.


Finally, about the 115 kg leopard, they vouched that is correct and confirmed but was excluded from the analisys just because is an exceptional figure. However, I see a discrepancy in the pictures, the first two shows a relatively large specimen but the third one shows a very small one:

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I this record reliable? I think it is as it is accepted by the experts in Iran, but it did included stomach content? I don't know, yet. Reply