Size comparisons

[Shadow]

(07-14-2019, 01:16 AM)Pckts Wrote:

(07-14-2019, 12:42 AM)Shadow Wrote:

(07-14-2019, 12:38 AM)Luipaard Wrote:

(07-14-2019, 12:01 AM)Shadow Wrote:

(07-13-2019, 11:24 PM)Luipaard Wrote:

(07-13-2019, 10:43 PM)Pckts Wrote: But overall I think the information provided has pretty much proven what I was saying.  Hopefully now we can move past that and start to appreciate these amazing Jaguars for what they are and that is a very unique species. Just like Lions in Ngorongoro Crater and Okavango Delta or Tigers in Kaziranga and Terai arc or Leopards in certain parts of Africa and Asia to name a few.

I agree.

Which is why I find Central African leopards so fascinating; they're the equivalent of Pantanal jaguars in my opinion.

Heh, it was coming, wasn´t it? But yes, you have some good points why to think so, but it has seemed to be less clear overall situation than it is, when we compare for instance Pantanal jaguars to some other population if we exclude Llanos. Have you got yet anything more from that person... was the name Jo, from panthera.org? it would be really interesting if she has something more to say, you got one reply from her in the past, wasn´t it so?

Yes, I got in touch with her thanks to the mods of Zooniverse. I could PM her again but I'm gonna have to ask something serious then.

Didn´t she tell, that she would discuss with others about sizes of rainforest leopards with others, colleagues? It would be interesting to hear if they have had discussions and what kind of estimations they have compared to other leopard populations. Maybe we wouldn´t get 100% certainty, but thoughts of biologists and zoologists are always interesting.

I've spoken to her and another I believe, I cant find them atm, but neither has much experience outside of the Congo basin. I even spoke with the gentleman who set up the mirror traps and he isn't aware of measurements or info from other african leopards nor has he been involved in any weight or captures, in fact I'm not sure exactly what experience he has outside of being a photographer.
You have to be careful with a lot of these researchers, make sure their experience is relevant to the discussion at hand.
It's why using hunters sometimes is a better option because they go where the largest cats are unfortunately but they know via experience.

Let's look at the criteria required before we got to an acceptable conclusion on Pantanal Jags.
Needed first hand accounts, needed email confirmation from people who've seen and researched Jags from Los llanos and pantanal then needed all weights to be verified.

Let's compare it to leopards...
Weights from the area....not enough
Camera trap photos from a mirror.... proof
Skull measurements =largest leopards
Skull measurements equal to the largest skulls showing cats under 100kg=not enough
Researchers with no experience in weighing cats from anywhere, let alone Congo=conclusive
Hunters with weights and first hand measures from all over Africa including Central=Not enough
And so on.


If we're to play this game then let's play by the same rules, if not let's make sure to acknowledge that these are estimates and not proven.

When there isn´t too much information, then new information should be welcome. Just because some researcher isn´t expert in certain issue, it doesn´t mean, that he/she couldn´t have contacts to right people and by asking able to get very good information/sources. If there is someone in panthera.org, who is willing to reply and help in gathering information, that opportunity should be used, imo. It can be asked, when she replies, that is information his/her personal opinion or more. And based on what. It doesn´t cost anything to ask and then see, what reply looks like.

That photographer (Xavier something) isn´t biologist/zoologist, but he obviously has discussions with experts time to time as well as with locals. What comes to size comparisons between leopard subspecies and/or weight estimations, I don´t think that he can help really. His focus seems to be more in observing how animals behave. He should put there beside mirrors on ground some 1m x 1m object to help estimate sizes of animals visiting mirrors though.

But what comes to photos and videos, for me those mean quite little if/when there is nothing to what compare. And what comes to one photo from Congo and another from India for instance, taken from different leopards. I see those useless in this kind of discussion. People can see only if some leopard looks robust or not and that´s it really. Same as with all animals and I think, that many posters have said this same. 

Anyway I think, that a lot of same information has been circling around and around and it would be good time to try to dig out something new for a change. 

I see it like this: Are there big leopards in Central Africa? Yes, for sure. Are they exceptional compared to other parts of Africa? Difficult to say, I haven´t seen so far enough to make that conclusion.

This is how I see it. Many good points for and against, but simply not enough information, which could be easily compared. Skull sizes naturally is one indicator, if differences are significant. And I know, that tables about those have been shared, but I haven´t really payed attention lately. One problem is, that discussion/debate has been here and there all over different leopard threads and size comparison thread making it painful to follow really. If something like that is wanted to discuss seriously, it really should be done in one thread and focus to make clear postings.

What is the claim and what things back up that claim and what then again are against. But when discussion/debate spreads like avalanche to here and there.... nightmare, soon no-one remembers what was said and where and when. And when it happens, most people don´t care anymore. Reply