Size comparisons

[Pckts]

(04-21-2022, 12:01 AM)Twico5 Wrote:

(04-20-2022, 11:05 PM)Pckts Wrote:

Quote:1. Only floodplain jaguars outsize the largest puma populations 
2. At least in an area where both cats tend to be the same size there would definitely be mutual avoidance
3. Puma size isnt affected at all by the presence of jaguars, their populations arent supressed by jaguars and they never have to resort to hunting different prey because of jaguar presence

1. Wrong-Jaguars outsize Puma everywhere they coexist and I'd wager even in the Caatinga
2. There is no mutual avoidance, one is dominate one isn't. Both can coexist perfectly as long as the weaker one avoids confrontation.
3.Yes it is, hence why they don't prey on the most abundant prey source in the Pantanal nor are they spotted in any areas with high Jaguar density. 

Quote:Jaguars don’t weigh significantly more than pumas under the same circumstances and with the same diet.

Of course they do, here's a study on the Prey habits of both in the Chaco
https://www.academia.edu/21160376/The_Fo...ayan_Chaco

Amazingly similar yet the Jaguars here significantly outsize Pumas. Chaco Jags rival Cerrado Jags in size and can even get as large as some Pantanal ones time to time.

Quote:The study I posted that had the weights of a female puma and jaguaress also included the weight of a male jaguar (37kg). They weren’t making rough estimates of the sizes of these cats. “From the track sizes of the captured big cats and the others known on the study area”.  They captured several jaguars and pumas, measured their paws and weighed them then compared the measurements of the tracks they found to the track sizes of the cats that they weighed.

3 cats captured (1 male, 1 female Jag and 1 Puma female) without age determined is limited at best. To make assumptions on Cat weights of any other pugmarks is extremely limited as well. 
For one, do you really think males only weigh 6 kg more than females? 
Next, pugmarks can come from the same cats, you don't know who's are who's so again that's a very limited specimen count.
So yes, the claims of averages are absolutely a "rough estimate" at best.

You said jags in caatinga were eating armadillos right?  

*This image is copyright of its original author

Thats crazy because so are belizean jaguars

*This image is copyright of its original author

In your last post you said that belizean jaguars are larger than belizean pumas, which i agree with. Except this has to do with pumas being smaller in belize while larger in caatinga. Maybe caatinga pumas are dominating jags and because of this are able to select larger and better prey. 


I showed you a study that very clearly said that pumas are not avoiding jaguars. Pumas do not always avoid jaguars they only do this in forested areas there is a study to prove this. Funny thing is one bolivian study showed that pumas did not avoid jaguars in dry forests as these are preferred habitats for pumas that jaguars happen to live in as well. Chacoan jaguars are much larger? Are you sure about that? I havent seen any puma weights from the chaco region except for one and it was this crazy hunting record of a 170kg puma.

Yet another baseless claim as we have 0 chacoan puma weights.  People are still going to like your post and agree with you and that is insane.

Chaco region:
 

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

And about the weights given for those peruvian jags and pumas, we know that pumas are more sexually dimorphic than jaguars it is likley that male pumas are just as large or larger than the male jag captured in that study. Also it clearly says in the screenshot i posted that all the captured cats were adults in good condition and the tracks that they had measured were of known individuals most definitely adults too

Quote:You said jags in caatinga were eating armadillos right? Thats crazy because so are belizean jaguars

And also Peccary, and if you go off of actual prey biomass, the Peccary contribute far more than Armadillos 

Quote:In your last post you said that belizean jaguars are larger than belizean pumas, which i agree with. Except this has to do with pumas being smaller in belize while larger in caatinga. Maybe caatinga pumas are dominating jags and because of this are able to select larger and better prey. 

Where are you getting a claim that Pumas are dominating Jags in Caatinga? 
Like I've stated, there is absolutely no place where these two coexist that a Puma will dominate a Jaguar.
I think you need to clarify what your interpretation of "dominate" is.
Because if you're talking about quantity of individuals they specifically talk about the human caused suffering administered to the Caatinga Jag and how a Puma can take calfs, stash them 3 at a time but come time for the farmers to take revenge, they'll only find a jaguar due to it's size and poor camouflage and thus they get killed off. 
On top of that, their prey has also been depleted which allows the Pumas to succeed off smaller more versatile prey in which the Jags have a harder time taking. 

Quote:I showed you a study that very clearly said that pumas are not avoiding jaguars.

Being seen in the same area has nothing to do with avoiding. Tigers and Leopards live in the same area, Lions and Leopards and so on. 
The point is that if both run in to one another, you can be sure that it'll be the Puma which is smaller that beats a hasty retreat.

Quote:Chacoan jaguars are much larger? Are you sure about that? I havent seen any puma weights from the chaco region except for one and it was this crazy hunting record of a 170kg puma.

I'm 100% sure about that and it's not even close. 
The claim of any puma of 170kg is an absolute joke. The book literally prefaces that claim with the weights being "overestimates." Not to mention, a hunter  
Just look at SCI skulls 
You wont see a single Chaco Puma skull on the list but you most certainly will see quite a few Jag Chaco skulls.

*This image is copyright of its original author

Quote:Yet another baseless claim as we have 0 chacoan puma weights.  People are still going to like your post and agree with you and that is insane.

Would you like me to ask Nick how he thought the Gran Chaco Pumas compared to the Jaguars?

Nicholas Mcphee

Couple of images from Bolivia exploring the rarely visited Gran Chaco ecosystem in Kaa Iya National Park.

*This image is copyright of its original author

How about these two

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

So unless you're making the claim that Pumas in Chaco are the largest pumas on earth, I think the facts are pretty clear in that regard, are they not?

Quote:we know that pumas are more sexually dimorphic than jaguars it is likley that male pumas are just as large or larger than the male jag captured in that study. Also it clearly says in the screenshot i posted that all the captured cats were adults in good condition and the tracks that they had measured were of known individuals most definitely adults too

Shall we add this to the list of made up facts?

And how exactly is it likely that Male Pumas are just as large or larger than the male jag captured when the only female was smaller than the male? And of course, Jaguars are larger than Pumas in that region as well. Reply