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Size comparisons
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 (04-17-2022, 03:03 AM)Twico5 Wrote:(04-17-2022, 01:18 AM)Pckts Wrote:I never said avg weight? As i said before pantanal jaguars have a better prey base than any cougar population. Every individual is large and well fed. However, a 90kg puma is not exceptional, there are usually 80-90kg pumas mentioned in every single study ive seen from argentinea and chile as well as nw states like idaho, montana, utah etc that includes weights. A 90kg puma is large yes but in areas where they have little competition and healthy prey bases why should there be any avg or 60 kilogram males?(04-16-2022, 10:30 PM)Twico5 Wrote:Nowhere are pumas upwards of 100kg. You Are talking about an outlier when mentioning 100kg Puma.(04-16-2022, 09:45 PM)LoveAnimals Wrote:(04-16-2022, 06:27 PM)Twico5 Wrote: huge cattle herds Never did I say average either, you said "upwards of 100kg." Which is extremely rare for any Cougar. 90kg is also extremely rare for any Cougar, any cougar between 80-90kg will be in the upper tier.  *This image is copyright of its original author You'll notice that only one there even reached 80kgs. Also, Pumas in Patagonia have just as large of of a prey base as Pantanal Jaguars. Quote:Yes and horse-killing pumas usually tend to be larger. I was talking about Patagonian pumas specifically when I said their predation on wild horses was rare.This is also an unfounded claim. Wild horses would be even more difficult than Guanaco, generally speaking the only Cats that could prey on adults would be large ones regardless. Quote:Amazonian Jaguars vary in size. Most are large and here is their prey base: The largest verified amazonian Jaguar was around 70kgs. Quote:Now of course they don’t have 10 million caiman to prey on and nor do they have huge cattle herds grazing in their territories but they do have tons of reptilian prey. These are animals cougars don’t typically hunt.Again, they must become sloth hunters for months out of the year and the terrain doesn't allow them to hunt that prey. Quote:“Sloths”. Throughout most of the Amazon they’re preying on large reptilesWhat exactly are these "large reptiles" you think they are preying on? And there is no debate, sloths make up a high majority of Amazon Jaguars diet. Sloths also make up a large portion of the Jaguars diet in Costa Rica as well. Prey abundance drives habitat occupancy by jaguars in Amazonian floodplain river islands Rafael M. Rabeloa,b,∗ , Susan Aragónc , Júlio César Bicca-Marquesd "Jaguars’ predominant terrestriality does not preclude them from occurring in Amazonian seasonally flooded forests (herein várzea forests). This is the case at the Mamirauá Sustainable Development Reserve – a protected area of várzea forests in Central Amazon – where jaguars reach high densities probably because of high prey abundance (Ramalho, 2012). The availability of arboreal (e.g., sloths and monkeys; Rabelo et al., 2017) and water-associated (e.g., caimans and their eggs; Ramalho, 2012; Torralvo et al., 2017) prey species allows jaguars to reside yearlong in flooded forests, including the 4- to 6-month-long high-water season (Ramalho et al., 2009; Ramalho, 2012)." "Jaguar probability of site occupancy was positively influenced by the abundance of both howlers and sloths (Table 1; Fig. 2a and b). Although both estimates were not significant at HPD95 (i.e., the HPD95 interval included the zero), we found strong evidence that sloth and howler abundances increase the probability of habitat occupancy by jaguars [likelihood estimates: p (β1 > 0) = 0.93 and p (β2 > 0) = 0.94, respectively]. We estimated a similar proportion of island and continuous forest sites used by jaguars (ψ = 0.75, HPD95: 0.36–1.00, Fig. 2c). Additionally, we found that the abundances of both sloths and howlers have similar effects on jaguar probability of occurrence " https://ppbio.inpa.gov.br/sites/default/...artigo.pdf Quote:Nw Mexico isn’t the only place where they’re the same size. Peru:Again we are talking about the Amazon and still Jaguars there will outsize the Puma, but it's not as exaggerated as it is in the Pantanal, Chaco, Cerrado, Los Llanos etc. Quote:Pumas in Patagonia are eating cape haresI will 100% guarantee you that Guanaco make up way more prey consumption than hare for any Cougar in Patagonia. You need to understand a hare is 1/100th the size of a Guanaco and one Guanaco will substantially contribute far more to a Cougars diet than 20 hare but the hare's quantity will skew the results. The reason Patagonia is the only place on earth where you see numerous Cougars feeding on a single carcass isn't because of Hares, trust me. This is also shown in the study with regards to the "prey consumed" table. Quote:If they’re large here then it would only be because of the couple thousand guanacos here as opposed to the many reasons why pantanal Jaguars reach enourmous sizes. Millions of yacare caiman, 3000 cattle ranches in the region, 0 competition, everything else is also on the roster as prey vs puma population that has only 1 wild prey animal over 5kg. It’s true that Patagonian pumas are apex predators, but according to what you’ve been saying about Jaguars being dominant over pumas, jags would be dominant in every part of their range as well. But they’re small in many places. Guess what? Jaguars are apex predators in the cerrado as well, yet you decide to remind me that there are 140kg pantanal Jaguars! Why aren’t we comparing Amazon jag and Patagonian puma sizes? Both are apexes right? Why is it that one apex niche population is smaller than another apex niche population? I think it might have to do with the prey base that the pantanal has!This excuse holds no water. Guanaco numbers in Patagonia are between 100-200 thousand at least. There are also immense sheep farms which contribute to Cougar prey. And of course because of the density of prey you also have the highest cougar density on earth. And like the Pantanal Jaguars, these cougars have no competition. Also, tell me again where Jaguars are small since you said "many places." And what does the Cerrado have to do with anything? You realize jaguars are also massive in the Cerrado, only slightly smaller than Pantanal ones. Lastly, I think I've explained the differences between the Amazon compared to elsewhere pretty well. Quote:Several male pumas from this region weighing around 90 kilograms. Don’t most male Jaguars in the pantanal weigh around this much? Even then pantanal Jaguars have a much better prey base. Some of these pumas mainly killed and ate livestock. Jaguars in the pantanal eat everything in their territory and the abundance of livestock as well as their own favored wild prey is much higher. It would be foolish to believe that 100 kilograms is the max weight for male pumas btw. There have been many records from scientific literature of male pumas weighing upwards of 100kg, if you’d like I can post some of them.There is a difference between Per. Comm and actually weighed first hand. And once again, the average male jaguar in the pantanal is 108 kgs which is significantly heavier than any cougar population and heavier than almost any cougar ever weighed. There is one claimed to have been close to 110kg in Patagonia but not confirmed. Just scroll through here https://wildfact.com/forum/topic-modern-...ld-cougars You'll quickly see that verified 100kg Cougars are extremely lacking on top of how rare a 90kg Cougar is. They're much like Leopards, 70-80kg is a good sized male, 90kg is exceptional and 100kg is extremely rare. |
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