Size comparisons

[Pckts]

(04-16-2022, 08:01 AM)Twico5 Wrote:

(04-16-2022, 02:33 AM)Pckts Wrote:

(04-16-2022, 01:14 AM)Twico5 Wrote:

(04-16-2022, 12:14 AM)Pckts Wrote:

(04-16-2022, 12:00 AM)Twico5 Wrote:

(04-15-2022, 08:48 PM)GuateGojira Wrote:

(04-15-2022, 07:29 PM)LonePredator Wrote: Is this from the wild? If so, I did not know these two species coexisted. Is there any recorded instances of Cougars and Jaguars interacting?

Yes, jaguar and cougars coexist in most of America, from southern Mexico to northern Argentina. In the areas where they coexist, jaguars are always bigger. When they interact, jaguars dominate thanks to its largest size.

Jaguars are heavier in most places where they co-exist, except they co-exist in most of Central and South america where there are more freshwater ecosystems than anywhere else and where there are more freshwater fish and crocodillian species (the very prey jaguars have adapted to hunt) than anywhere else on earth. 

*This image is copyright of its original author

Look at the red areas, these are the regions in which jaguars tend to be really large and pumas, smaller than jaguars. In western mexico there are 0 crocodillian species and very few freshwater ecosystems, it is dry and arid and both jaguars and pumas are hunting the same animals. Here are some hindfoot sizes of jaguars and pumas from there:

*This image is copyright of its original author

Western mexico isnt the only region in which jaguars and pumas are hunting the same prey. I posted a study a while back that had weights of pumas killed in the Pampas region of argentinea. If i recall correctly there were 5 weights given and two of these weights were 107kg and 110kg. The average was over 90 kilograms for all male pumas included in the study. Now, its possible that jaguars here, or in other parts of northern argentinea have a similar or higher average weight. But considering that pumas have to be quite a bit taller and longer than jaguars in order to be the same weight, do you think these jaguars would appear to be bigger in size? No, they wouldn’t. Both jaguars and pumas in northern Argentinea primarily hunt domestic animals such as cattle, horses, sheep. The pantanal on the other hand shouldnt even be brought up anymore if you want to fairly compare jaguar and puma sizes. It is home to around 10 million yacare caiman. There are far less capybara, deer and whatever else pumas are hunting here. The pantanal is also home to some of largest cattle herds in the entire South America. Not to mention pumas here are rare. Yet in the size comparison posted above we see a female puma being close in height to a big male jaguar. All of this should prove that jaguars arent simply larger on their own. Also, regarding interactions between the two species, both have a mutual avoidance of each other.

Jaguars are hunted to hear extinction in Mexico/N. America.

And the Pantanal has 1000s of Capybara, they are absolutely everywhere. And while there is a ton of cattle in Brazil, not all jaguars or puma are cattle killer. On top of that, it's not just S. America where Jaguar are larger than Puma, C. America as well. Costa Rica which doesn't have the caiman still produce much larger Jaguar than the Pumas you find there. 


Lastly, there is no mutual avoidance. Jaguar dominate and puma avoid, this goes for anywhere they are found together in any numbers.

The best place to spot a jaguar on earth rn is caiman ecological refuge in the pantanal. There are way more caiman and fish (which are also a huge part of a pantanal jag’s diet) here than capybara. Also, i only mentioned nw mexico, NOT costa rica, belize, honduras, guatemala or southern mexico. Costa Rica does have crocodillians. Along the costa rican coast jaguars kill and eat leatherback turtles. This isnt something pumas typically do. 

*This image is copyright of its original author

I have seen camera trap images of pumas and jaguars from the highlands in costa rica and these cats are always around the same size. In the Caatinga region in Brazil cougars are bigger than jaguars, as well as certain regions in the Cerrado that have similarly sized jaguars and pumas becasue there they would prey on the same animals. 

This study here from mexico shows very little or no avoidance done by either cats. Except it says how jaguar activity decreases once puma activity is at a high because “encounters between two species of large carnivores usually end with interspecific aggresion and the maiming or killing of one of the aggresors.”

*This image is copyright of its original author

*This image is copyright of its original author

Pumas dont avoid jaguars

Quote:Pumas dont avoid jaguars

Of course they do:


About the Puma and Jaguar in the same areas, sizes and interactions.

In Brazil the smallest difference in size for both species happens in Caatinga where jaguars are the smallest in size.

The Amazonic jaguars from Mamirauá reserve are small too but they're larger than the Caatinga jaguars.


There are a few infos of Jaguars and Pumas coexistence in the Jaguars of Brazil thread, in Atlantic Forest area of Iguaçú - South Brazil Pumas and Jaguars can be seen in the same territories but on different times of the day and night within that specific area.

IN THE BRAZILIAN ATLANTIC FOREST.

from the Bafo de Onça live.

Vânia from the Onças do Iguaçú project: ''both species use the same area but with Atlantic forest Jaguars and Ocelots  being more nocturnal active cats in Iguaçú whereas Pumas are also nocturnal but they were active much more on daytime than jaguars so maybe the utilization of the area at different times help the existence of both species.''


IN PANTANAL.

In the Pantanal basin wise there's a post I dropped some months ago in the Jaguars of Brazil thread of Onçafari live ''Onçatalks''and according to their monitoring and to what Joares May said in Pantanal Pumas will also avoid direct encounters with jaguars and will seek smaller preys.

Joares May: ''The Onçafari team are on the field monitoring the area to figure out the places where it spots more Pumas and the ones that spots more jaguars, and from what we've seen in the areas where jaguars are seen the most the Pumas will either not show up around there or they will show up there only every once in a while during the day so both species are in the same region but in different times and its very clear in those places where in the range area of the jaguar you won't see Pumas around because the Puma won't be able to compete with this big predator.''

In the same onçafari live they were asked about jaguar predation on pumas and Joares May who travelled all over Brazil and the world he captured jaguars, maned wolves, pumas... he mentioned about a Puma carcass in Parque Nacional Grande Sertão Veredas ( Cerrado ) that was found and supposedly killed by a jaguar they checked the fighting place and the carcass had bite marks on the shoulders and paws so he imagined the Puma carcass was killed by jaguar, he also mentions he saw the result of a Puma and Jaguar fight and he says the result was Ugly.



also Pumas won't be seen very often in neither Porto Jofre (North section of Pantanal) nor in Mamirauá reserve (Central Amazon) because these two regions got high densities of jaguars with very high intraspecific competitions amongst jags. But just like in Iguaçú Pumas may very well ''show up'' during the times of the day/night when jaguars are less active in one specific place of those areas.


The area where wild Pumas and Jaguars are most equally sized is in Caatinga where both cats are found in serious critical endangered situations and where some Pumas could be the same size as jaguars or even slightly larger as Ronaldo Morato have stated in the live. In Caatinga is where you'll see the smallest wild jaguars than in any other biome but despite their small size they're yet proportionately very stocky cats which is expected from the most robust cat pound for pound.

Quote:The best place to spot a jaguar on earth rn is caiman ecological refuge in the pantanal. There are way more caiman and fish (which are also a huge part of a pantanal jag’s diet) here than capybara. Also, i only mentioned nw mexico, NOT costa rica, belize, honduras, guatemala or southern mexico. Costa Rica does have crocodillians. Along the costa rican coast jaguars kill and eat leatherback turtles. This isnt something pumas typically do. 

And the best place to spot jaguars on earth is in the Northern Pantanal, Caiman Ecological Refuge is the southern Pantanal. And fish play a very little role in the N. Pantanal Jags diet. Caiman and Capybara are by far the most preyed upon animal and it's not close other than cattle. 

But were talking about size here, not who would win in a fight. Ofc a fat male pantanal jag would kill a skinny little puma. Every study that ive found from the amazon or mexico state that there is likley a mutual avoidance between the two species. Ofc, we cant be certain about this as there is no way to determine whos avoiding who. Ive seen pumas scavenging on jaguar kills though.

No, you claimed mutual avoidance so let’s not forget that. 
And obviously you have a general bias if you’re calling them “a fat jag.”

Next is that what’s “every study” because I literally just presented you numerous scientific accounts telling you though opposite. 

Lastly, scavenging a kill isn’t mutual avoidance. You think a Lion is avoiding a Jackal when it’s scavenging their kill? Reply