ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)

[peter]

THE DEBATE ON SMYTHIES AND THE 705 LBS. CHITWAN TIGER

a - Introduction

A week ago, I received 'Big Game Shooting in Nepal' (E.A. Smythies, Calcutta, 1942). In the posts I did on the book, anyone with a good eye would have noticed that I was disappointed at what I saw. I will read the book in order to get to a table, but not now. The reason is I'm not that interested. 

Most of my time is invested in tables on skull measurements and body dimensions of big cats. All measurements were collected by those who wrote about the animals they shot themselves. 

Does this mean the information Smythies offers is unreliable? My conclusion is the information is reliable. This conclusion, however, isn't a result of the quality of the data. It is based on the education, experience and reputation of Smythies. If someone would have said a reputation in itself isn't enough to get to 'reliable', I would agree. The 705-lbs. Chitwan tiger, for this reason, compares to the Sungari River tiger shot by Jankowski and his brothers in 1943: not enough to pass the scientific threshold, but too much to dismiss.

b - My posts on the scientific community

Those who visit this forum every now and then probably know some of my posts on the scientific community were a bit tentative. More than once, I wrote today's biologists seem unable to measure a big cat in the correct way. I also said some seem to be unaware of the debates on methods waged in different magazines about a century ago. In my last posts, I wrote V. Mazak seemed to have 'overmeasured' tiger skulls and 'undermeasured' those of large lions. 

Apart from all that, I said I was disappointed at the lack of new data. I don't understand why unknown museums in far-away countries were never visited. I also don't understand why not one attempted to go over the records mentioned in hunting magazines and books. Same for the attitude regarding 'old' records in that many biologists often dismiss anything they didn't see themselves.   

The one disappointed didn't graduate in biology. Although he claimes he has measured captive big cats, he sincerely thinks 12-foot 700-pound tigers once roamed the forests in India and Manchuria. Although he didn't produce a paper on the skulls he allegedly measured, he doesn't mind posting on a forum. One day, a counter was to be expected and we were not disappointed.   

c - The debate so far

WaveRiders, at 177 pounds and in the blue corner, responded on behalf of the scientific community. He first neutralized all points made (see -b-) and then took the initiative with a few nice hooks. Although one could argue the 18-inchers resulted in overkill to a degree, the referee didn't see him crossing any limits anywhere.

Guategojira, also at 177 pounds and in the red corner, responded on behalf of those running the forum. He immediately went to the umpire to say his opponent wanted to start a war, which, of course, was true. While doing so, he took some hooks and one on the liver, but it has to be said he made a nice recovery. When he promised to go all the way, a truth was accepted in round 12, when both were close to entirely spent. All bets are off.   

d - The essentials of a debate

A debate shouldn't be about the dress of the local waitress. It should be about the fundamentals of the issue at hand. The method used shouldn't be about being polite or not, but about those points crucial for the debate. Debating takes skill. Every debate is black and white at some stage. This is a condition needed to be able to cover all angles. In a good debate, those participating will be attacked and those attacked will counter. Some will be proven right and some will be proven wrong. If those participating are unable to cope with the pressure and use their energy to get personal, the objective is lost. It also is the end of the debate.  

The result of a debate depends on the quality of those participating. In the end, it isn't about winning or losing, but about the best possible answer to the question asked. The best result is reached in a situation in which all participants have equal rights and votes. If one participant says he's a bit more equal than the other in the end, he should buy a ticket to watch the show. 

e - This forum

We know that most forums on animals have been destroyed by 'debates' on lions and tigers and all the rest of it. The reason, apart from bad moderation, was quite many participants didn't have the skill needed. As a result of the destruction witnessed, we decided to refrain from 'debates' right from the start. Debates, however, are essential for a forum. Good information only isn't going to do the job. For this reason, the policy was adapted.

f - WaveRiders

When WaveRiders joined the forum, not everyone was enthousiastic. I was one who had a few questions. One day, I met him in the Ngorogoro lion thread. After our debate, I concluded he is a well-informed poster with access to good information. I've yet to see inproper use of knowledge and also think he's a good debater, always trying to stick to the issue at hand.

I agree he was a bit harsh with Guate, but he wasn't the only one. Furthermore, he apologized. I think he can really contribute to the forum, especially in the departments disregarded by most.

As he seems to have a somewhat different background and outlook, especially in the extra-large tiger department, chances are debates will erupt on issues not considered as such by many. It is no secret that the mods, although well-educated, closed a deal with the tiger some time ago. Hence the 12-footers. This, of course, could result in a wee bit of preference at times and we all know that the results can have an effect in the long run. We need posters with a somewhat different outlook.

If we want our forum to succeed, debates should be allowed and conducted in a proper way. This takes a lot of skill. And restraint. I'm sure we can get there, if we keep the goal of the forum in mind. Ugh.

I now propose to continue on Smythies and the 'allegations' (clarified in -b-) WaveRiders referred to in his posts. Reply