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ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)

peter Offline
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( This post was last modified: 09-23-2020, 08:41 PM by peter )

RESPONSES TO POSTS 399-402

1 - POST 399 (description of the 10.9 tiger)

Smyhies didn't offer a description of the tiger. There also is no photograph, but a plate. The only remark on this tiger is in the scan I posted. The question is what to make of what is offered. The answer, as far as I am concerned, is reliable.

A century ago, tiger hunting was very popular. The size of a tiger wasn't expressed in skull measurements and weight, but in feet and inches (length). Hunters often wanted to impress their peers. The debates that erupted on very large tigers were a result of confusion, meaning it wasn't always clear what method was used and what was measured by whom. After years and years of debates, it was decided that the problem was in the method used.

Sterndale (1888) was one of the first who proposed to adopt a new method ('between pegs'). His proposal, after many debates, was more or less adopted, but not by everyone and not everywhere. In northern India, tigers were measured 'over curves' right till the end. The reason was many thought this measurement was more informative and accurate. 

Most Forest Officers measured tigers 'between pegs' well before the debate on methods started. Smythies, as far as I know, was one of the exceptions in that he too measured tigers 'over curves'. He adapted to the local habits. He had to, as the Maharajah measured tigers 'over curves'.

The 10.9 Nepal tiger, although impressive, wasn't the longest I know of. In fact, I doubt if he would get to the top ten. The tiger was exceptional because of his weight.

2 - POST 400 (Smythies)

Smythies was a Forest Officer and in my book they don't come much more reliable. Forest Officials were well-trained and knew how to measure a big cat. Many measured big cats 'between pegs' well before the debate on methods (see -1-) started. Smythies adapted to the local habits, but that doesn't mean he didn't know about the differences between both methods. Corbett, Hewett, Smythies and many other well-known hunters and Forest Officers had a lot of experience and agreed the difference between both methods was 2-5 inches when curve measurements were taken with care.

In north-eastern India, tigers also were measured 'over curves'. One of the problems of this method is it can be used in different ways. The difference between both methods in Assam was 5-6 inches in a male tiger and 7 inches in the longest shot by the Maharajah of Cooch Behar. Most of us think the difference in north India and Nepal would have been similar, but Corbett, Hewett and many others said it would have been 2-5 inches. Based on everything I read, the Bachelor of Powalgarh and the 10.9 inches Nepal tiger would have been 4-6 inches shorter in a straight line. I think it would have been closer to 4 inches. 

Another reason to think it would have been closer to 4 inches is my experience. The male Amur tiger I measured was 298,0 cm. in a straight line nearly every time I measured him (the differences between all measurements were within 1 cm.). Straight line measurements are easy: you place markers at the tip of the nose, at the tip of the last bone of the tail and near the insertion of the tail (raise the tail in order to locate the exact position). Then you measure the distance between the markers with a steel tape in a straight line. When measured 'over curves', however, the outcome was different every time (the results ranged between 308,0 and 318,5 cm.). This was a result of the way the method was applied. Even the smallest change resulted in a marked difference. The final result (312,5 cm. 'over curves') was the average of different attempts. The more I used this method, the more consistent the results were. For this reason, I concluded Corbett, Brander, Hewett and others could have been right: the differences between both methods usually are within, say, 4-5 inches. Maybe even a bit less.   

What I'm saying is it would depend on the experience you have. If a curve-measurement is taken with care, the difference with a straight line measurement is limited, even in large male tigers. From everything I read, I concluded measurements were considered as sacred in northern India. If a hunter would have used his experience to get to a few extra inches and the measurement would have been repeated by his peers, he would have suffered from the consequences of a significant difference. The most likely result, a loss of face, would have been devastating for your reputation (see -3-). For this reason, exaggeration was out of the question.    
     
3 - POST 401 (V. Mazak)

I thought you was a bit harsh on Mazak, Guate. Mazak, as you know, was heavily debated in AVA. In the first edition of his book 'Der Tiger', he included measurements of Barclay and Baikov. Some of these were unreliable. His peers told him and Mazak, in the third edition, admitted he had been misled (pp. 183), meaning he had misinformed the public. As a result, Mazak lost a lot of credit (see the last paragraph of -2-). 

For the third edition of his book, he decided to use his own measurements and records of hunters who had measured tigers 'between pegs' only. In spite of his promise (see pp. 138 of his book in the German translation), many records of tigers measured 'between pegs' were not used, whereas the Bachelor of Powalgarh and the Sungari River tiger, both measured 'over curves', were included. The question, of course, is why Mazak decided to leave his decision on 'pegs' and curves' measurements. My guess is the photographs (both tigers were photographed) had an effect. Mazak also was a bit unclear in that he didn't offer anything on why some records qualified and others did not.     

The main problem with zoologists and biologists regarding big cats is they are not that interested in measurements and weights. Most of them also do not seem aware of the debates on methods I referred to above (see -1-) and only very few of them invested time in research. The result is they often have no other option but to quote the same sources over and over. The sources they consider unreliable, that is (...). 

Another result of a lack of interest and knowledge is confusion. I remember a well-known biologist who wrote a measurement taken 'between pegs' is less reliable than a measurement taken 'over curves' (...), meaning he was turning the world upside down. He got away with it and this underlines knowledge regarding methods is limited in modern biologists and zoologists. 

As for Mazak's alleged preference towards Amur tigers. It could have been a result of what he saw. Amur tigers, apart from a few exceptions, were and are the biggest captive big cats. European zoos didn't have many Indian tigers in the sixties and seventies of the last century. The few Indian tigers Mazak saw were smaller than most Amur tigers. This would have had an effect.  

It had an effect on me. The Indian tigers I saw in circuses, although large, were smaller than Amur tigers. When I started reading and saw reliable reports on Indian tigers of 10 feet straight and 550 pounds, I was surprised. Same for the size of wild Amur tigers today.

Some years ago, I interviewed Tony Hughes. Tony Hughes is an experienced trainer who saved one of the Chipperfields when he was attacked by lions. Regarding the size of captive big cats and their wild relatives, Hughes was way more accurate than others I interviewed. Imagine what I thought when he told me he had seen captive Indian tigers nearly twice the weight of those I had seen. He said most captive Indian tigers compared to most captive African lions, although perhaps a bit longer. Amur tigers are larger than both, but they too didn't compare to the bulky one-employee destruction firms he saw in the UK and the US. They were few and far between, but they were there and they were unreal. Not longer or taller, but much more robust. The ones he saw, in his opinion, would have made very short work of even a decent brown bear. They apparently did (he didn't offer details), as they were taken out of mixed shows. These tigers are now used to breed only. Tony, him has seen a lot. We talked for nearly two complete days.    

4 - POST 402 (weight)

It is a fallacy to think most tigers shot by well-known hunters in immense shooting parties (5.000-10.000 staff) were baited. In most cases, the tigers they shot had been monitored for years by very experienced people who's only job it was to know what was where and when. They compared to walking encyclopedia's who knew everything one would want to know regarding tigers. Furthermore, in those days, India and Nepal still had immense tracks of wild country inhabited by animals only. I won't say baits were never used, but they had their ways to keep tigers in distinct parts of forest. These men, poor and very modest in their appearance, often were immediately dismissed by those who saw them. But every Maharajah interested in tigers took his 'shikari' more serious than all others when tigers were concerned.    

I can understand the uproar over tigers of 10 feet and 600-700 pounds (animals of that size, after all, are immense), but every experienced hunter knew there were tigers of that size a century and a half ago. The problem is only very few succeeded in bagging one, because these tigers often were very elusive and experienced. You just didn't get to them. For example. The biggest skull of a Java tiger Hoogerwerf saw was a result of sheer luck (he found his remains).

At the start of the 20th century, tigers of that size had been exterminated in most regions. In some wild regions, like Manchuria, parts of central and east India and Nepal, however, one could still see a prehistoric monster every now and then. Bagging one was quite another thing. You needed a lot of experience, skill and patience to find them and a lot of luck to get to them. When you succeeded, there often was no chance to measure them in the proper way, let alone weigh and transport them. If you told your friends about a giant, chances were nobody would have believed you.       

Maharajah's often had unmolested and well-stocked reserves and the men they needed to find and protect extra-large tigers. At times, they succeeded in delivering a giant, but more often than not they failed. That, however, doesn't mean they were not there. All hunters with experience agreed they were there.

5 - PHOTOGRAPHS

5a - The Maharajah and a three weeks' bag (Nepal).

A devastating photograph, but not out of the ordinary in those days. Many shot well over 500 tigers in their life and one Maharajah exceeded 1000:


*This image is copyright of its original author
   

5b - A large Nepal tiger padded.

At first, you think you see two tigers. When you concentrate, you only see one. Nepal tigers often were very long. This one wasn't in the monster category, but he was long:


*This image is copyright of its original author

    
5c - Bengal and the Sunderbans.

Two of the males below were shot in a region just south of Assam. The third was shot just north of the Sunderbans. Not small by any means, in spite of the angle. It shows the decline in size in the Sunderban region happened in a relatively short period of time. As soon as isolation started, things changed.

My guess is it wasn't different in other regions. When a giant had been located and shot, chances were tigers of that size would never return. Experienced hunters knew and, for this reason, went after them. Only few succeeded: 


*This image is copyright of its original author


5d - Another large male tiger shot in India (1937):


*This image is copyright of its original author


5e - The 10.9 tiger shot in Nepal (Smythies):


*This image is copyright of its original author


5f - Rajaji (first posted by Roflcopters)

The region just south of the Himalayas always produced large animals. Have a look at the prints below and try to imagine what he would have weighed: 
  

*This image is copyright of its original author


5g - A scratchmark reaching 10.6

At the moment, I'm reading 'Udjong Kulong - last land of the Javan rhinoceros' (Hoogerwerf, 1970). Hoogerwerf measured foot prints (width) and scratch marks (height) in the thirties and early forties of the last century. Large males ranged between 9-11 cm. in pad width. A pad width of 9 cm. represents a foot print of about 20 cm. in width. Measure it on the floor.

The scratch marks he measured ranged between 180-216 cm. in height. Go to a wall and mark 216 cm. This was the height a large male Java tiger reached in the thirties of the last century. Java tigers, judging from their skulls, were decidedly smaller than Indian tigers. The longest skull Hoogerwerf found was 345,50 mm. (the was 350,00 mm. in the late forties, but apparently shrunk with age).

In a BBC-documentary on Nepal tigers, they showed scratch marks that reached about 9 feet. Add another foot and a half and go to your wall again. In most houses, you can't get to that height. The hunter who made the photograph below wrote he hunted the tiger who left the scratch mark for a long time. He never got to him. 

Now ask yourself if 10.9 'over curves' and 705 lbs. was extra-exceptional. It was, of course, but I read reports I consider reliable about tigers exceeding even 12 feet (measured 'over curves'). This was maybe a century before the 10.9 tiger was shot. The people who shot these giants knew what their peers would think. They didn't even try to convince them. Other tried and, as expected, were dismissed as dreamers.

Inglis was. He saw a 11.1 male tiger and was amazed to hear that his mentor had shot tigers who dwarfed the 11.1 tiger he saw. Dwarfed. This was not a joker, but a remark from someone he had known for a long time. Not a story-teller, but someone who kept records. Male tigers in northern India averaged just over 9.6 'over curves' back then, he said. But he also said he had shot tigers who dwarfed the 11.1 tiger that amazed Inglis. Can you imagine a tiger that would dwarf the 10.9 Nepal tiger in all respects? No? But they were there. No question.

Twelve foot tigers? Only on 'forums', most zoologists would say. There are no skulls suggesting there could have been 11 feet tigers, let alone 12 feet. I have a question for them. Which biologist visited India and talked to those in the know? Who visited all parks and museums and talked to rangers, biologists and hunters? Who visited museums in eastern Russia and northern China and measured skulls? Central Asia then?    

The answer is not one. But they are the first to dismiss records. It often is, in fact, the first remark in every chapter on size in nearly every book. This in a time when tigers, although on the edge of extinction, still produce 10 feet males exceeding 600 pounds at times:        


*This image is copyright of its original author
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Messages In This Thread
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - TIGERS (Panthera tigris) - peter - 02-22-2015, 07:50 PM
Demythologizing T16 - tigerluver - 04-12-2020, 11:44 AM
Tiger Data Bank - Apollo - 07-28-2014, 09:54 PM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - Apollo - 07-28-2014, 10:02 PM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - Apollo - 07-29-2014, 12:56 AM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - peter - 07-29-2014, 07:05 AM
Tiger recycling bin - Roflcopters - 09-04-2014, 01:36 AM
RE: Tiger recycling bin - Pckts - 09-04-2014, 02:22 AM
RE: Tiger recycling bin - Roflcopters - 09-05-2014, 01:01 AM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - Apollo - 11-15-2014, 10:07 PM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - Apollo - 11-15-2014, 10:57 PM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - Apollo - 11-15-2014, 11:33 PM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - Apollo - 02-19-2015, 11:25 PM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - GuateGojira - 02-23-2015, 11:36 AM
Status of tigers in India - Shardul - 12-20-2015, 03:23 PM
RE: Tiger Directory - Diamir2 - 10-03-2016, 04:27 AM
RE: Tiger Directory - peter - 10-03-2016, 06:22 AM
Genetics of all tiger subspecies - parvez - 07-15-2017, 01:08 PM
RE: Tiger Predation - peter - 11-11-2017, 08:08 AM
RE: Man-eaters - Wolverine - 12-03-2017, 11:30 AM
RE: Man-eaters - peter - 12-04-2017, 09:44 AM
RE: Tigers of Central India - Wolverine - 04-13-2018, 01:17 AM
RE: Tigers of Central India - qstxyz - 04-13-2018, 08:34 PM
RE: Size comparisons - peter - 07-16-2019, 05:28 AM
RE: Amur Tigers - peter - 05-20-2021, 07:13 AM
RE: Amur Tigers - Nyers - 05-21-2021, 08:02 PM
RE: Amur Tigers - peter - 05-22-2021, 08:09 AM
RE: Amur Tigers - GuateGojira - 04-06-2022, 12:59 AM
RE: Amur Tigers - tigerluver - 04-06-2022, 01:08 AM
RE: Amur Tigers - tigerluver - 04-06-2022, 09:08 AM
RE: Amur Tigers - tigerluver - 04-06-2022, 11:30 PM
RE: Amur Tigers - peter - 04-08-2022, 07:27 AM



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