ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)

[peter]

WAVERIDERS,
 
Interesting post. Must have taken some time. Before responding, I decided for a summary of the points you made. The summary not only allows for an overview of the essentials of the points you made. It also helps readability to an extent. One has to remember most visitors are not posters. I know many appreciate shortish and clear posts and clear responses. I agree, as it all comes down to a few points in the end. Here's the summary.


A - SUMMARY OF THE POINTS MADE

a - Length 

Your post relates to post 314. That post included a table on the size of Yellowstone male brown bears. The table was posted to get to information on the straight line length of male brown bears. This was done in order to be able to compare bears and tigers in head and body length 'between pegs'. 

Those who constructed the table distinguished between 'length' and 'contour' length. I wrote 'contour length' most probably was similar to the length 'over curves' in big cats, whereas 'length' could have been similar to head and body length 'between pegs' in big cats. 

You wrote 'length' in the brown bear table didn't correspond to 'head and body length between pegs' of big cats for two reasons. One was 'length' probably included the tail. Two is " ... it does not appear to be a straight line distance, but a curved distance probably not thoroughly matching any contour ... ". The result of both points is I allegedly overestimated " ... the straight line head and body measurements of brown bears in northeastern Siberia provided by the table you showed ... ". You finished your point saying " ... brown bears in the Russian Far East are reliable reported at much larger body size then that of any tiger ... ".

2 - Skull

In post 314, I compared northeastern Siberia male brown bears with Cooch Behar male tigers. You wrote " ... Ursus arctos lasiotus, the brown bear subspecies living in Amur tiger range, is not only much heavier, but even a significantly larger subspecies then the form from northeastern Siberia. Apart from body weights ..., any study of the skull size ... show ... it is ... about the same size of the Kamsjatka form ... ".  

3 - Weight and skull size 

You wrote adult male Amur tigers nowadays " ... weigh on average about 180 kg. on the basis of indisputable data of over 40 individuals ... ". The range you gave was 146-225 kg. Ussuri male brown bears average 270 kg., with large individuals tipping the scale at 320 kg. in normal conditions. You thought that even "... a big Amur male attempting to predate even just an average male brown bear is either foolish or desperate or both ... ".

4 - Body structure

Although Amur tigers top Ussuri brown bears in upper canine length, bite force (at similar size), grappling ability, agility and speed, you wrote male brown bears " ... more than compensate these ... handicaps with ... a more solid, compact, powerful and more armoured body built at similar body mass ... and a more stable body (plantigrade) platform ... ". Apart from that, they have a longer reach, as effective claws and a cardiovascular system delivering more stamina. A tiger could ambush a bear, but you wrote this, as a result of an exceptionally well developed sense of smell, would be an unlikely scenario.

5 - The Tatibe River brown bear killed by a tigress in 1951

No differences of opinion in this department. The bear killed was either a subadult or young adult male or an adult female. As a result of a lack of age (and experience), the bear, in spite of its weight, was no match for the tigress.
 
6 - Conclusions

Compared to adult male Amur tigers, adult Ussuri male brown bears:

- are even shorter in head and body length than I stated (a);
- have significantly longer skulls (b);
- outweigh male Amur tigers by quite a margin ©, and
- compensate handicaps by their robustness, reach and stamina (d).
  
7 - Male Amur tigers vs Ussuri male brown bears

How to commit suicide: Lesson one. Reply