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ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)

Finland Shadow Offline
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(03-12-2019, 03:08 AM)GuateGojira Wrote:
(03-07-2019, 02:07 AM)Shadow Wrote: Here two videos about conservation of tigers. Not so many views in youtube so I thought to put those here. Good information and I think, that also interesting to hear what people like Karanth say, even though there are many books and studies to read.





A little bit shorter interview:





Dr Ullas Karanth is superb!!! This is how a real tiger expert (and wildlife overall) think, act and propose, using both science and experience. These two videos have a huge weight in the following conservations decitions, and indirectly they support my current point of view on the conservation of tigers in the past, present and future.

@peter, I understand your concern and those of the other moderators. My words in my posts about Sankhala may sound harsh for some, but are well based, and certainly reflect my frustration to see what the scientists still suffer to save the tigers and all the huge burocracy based in old ides created by "you know who". I will take my time to answer with along, detailed and well explained post focused on the view of that person. Also, if someone says that I am against Sankhala because he was an Indian, please don't forget that Dr Karanth, Dr Chundawat and Mr Thapar, which are basic for my tiger knowledge, are also Indian, so don't try to make this a "national" issue, like those bad park rangers done in Sariska and Panna.

I sustain my point of view and I will explain why. Incredibly, these two videos posted by @Shadow are going to be usefull for my next answer.

Edit: Just a side note @peter. This is not about "Dhole vs Tiger" or "Lion vs Tiger", this is about tiger behaviour and how this influenced in tiger conservation. This is how the old ideas, that may have been "good" in the old days are now affecting the conservation of a species that for many reasons has became very controversial. I think that is posible to read between lines and I invite you to see the second video of Dr Karanth again, believe me, this issue of "scientist vrs rangers" is older than you think.

I will also clarify a thing. As far I remember I did not mention, at any moment, that Sankhala was not good because he was not a Biologist, you say that I "more than once, underlined he was not a biologist" and that is not correct. I mean, how can I say that he is bad for that if I am not a Biologist too! So, make no sence to place that card in the table. Also, I can also quote Dr McDougal and Valmik Thapar, none of them were Biologist, in fact both were Anthropologist but they became tiger experts and changed the view of the tiger for the entire world. People can change, even those from old school, for example the great Fateh Singh Rathore worked for Sankhala and probably based his desitions in the view of the first one, but also he made some personal observations that were published. Interestingly in the book "Tigers, the secret life" Thapar mention that when he shared his conclutions about the tiger as a father, Fateh laughs at him as it was not based in evidence, but with the time Thapar proved right and Fateh changed his point of view and that was good. So been a Biologist or not do not make you a good or bad expert, is the objetivity and the methods that you use that help you to get a proper and correct conclution about any topic.

Also, I prevously complained about the use of single sights as evidence of "normal" behaviour of an animal, and I addressed the lack of condensation of the work of naturalists and park rangers. I know and accept that the information that they share is very important and valuable, just like the many reports on the JBNHS of the begining of the century, but I also address the fact that is necesary to condensate and present your conclutions. For example I know a black bear expert (I will not mention his name, as I "may" offend somebody here) was critisized by they peers because he have good knowledge on these animals but he has published nothing. So I think that is very important to publish the results of the investigations and in this modern era we don't need to contact a journal, people can create blogs or publish books to present what they have, in a logic manner and with order of time and space. Thapar is my best example, he published all what he have and with time he because "king for his own hand" (quoting a "Conan the Barbarian" prase! Wink ). So I do not dismiss all the old stories and certainly I no longer ignore the reports of naturalists and photographers of the wild. But we always need to be aware that in the natural world, a random behaviour may be clasified as "normal" or a normal behaviour witnessed only ones may be classified as "random", if there is not a continuing study to back up this events (that is why the long therm studies made in Chitwan, Nagarahole, Panna, Sikhote Alin and Huai Kha Khaeng, among others, are so important). Also, you must admit that some of the old stories of the fist century present some drama on it, something to "catch" the reader and I afraid, some fantasy on them too. So, while I don't share the idea that "all" the old information is incorrect or just "more or less" correct (like Dr Yamaguchi point of view on the records of sizes of tigers and lions, for example), we must accept that many of the old conclutions are incorrectly derived. A poster here, I forget who, said that we have learned more of the tigers in the last years that in the entire time before 1960, and I am agree. I will like to buy the book "Tiger Fire" where Thapar made a condensation of some of the most important reports of tigers since the begining of the century to these days in order to compare the information with what we know about the tiger after the "Schaller's Big Bang" (and yes, the book includes the events of the tiger vr dholes, so what?) in order to see what difference we can found, if there is such a thing as the "mythical vs real" tiger.

Finally, I did not insulted @Wolverine and @Shadow at all, I was hard and I admit it, but if we are going to start like "millenials" that get offended at any moment, definitelly we will have problems. I did not had problems with @Shadow before and with too @Wolverine. To be honest, I was just nmaking a call to be aware of what we defend. I they were offend I apologice as it was not my intention to offend them, but to make them see beyond the simple lines of a book. I will like to keep good relations with all the posters, but don't ask me to me "politically correct", as I am not that person. Wait for my post on Sankhala and please take a look again about what I wrote, not my words, but the words quoted from the people that was affected by the words of Sankhala at an International and profesional level (for example Dr John Seidensticker).

No problem from my side. I have huge respect for both, Sankhala and Karanth among many other people. I see some issues between them as quarrels between older and younger brother. Of course what comes to conclusions and means to collect data, Karanth represent modern times. But when Karanth speaks, there are elements, which I connect to Sankhala too, in a way amusing. Different times, different people. But for sure there has been friction and sometimes from reasons, which we maybe never know. Many people from those times are no longer here to explain how they experienced certain things and changes.
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Messages In This Thread
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) - Shadow - 03-12-2019, 02:25 PM
Demythologizing T16 - tigerluver - 04-12-2020, 11:44 AM
Tiger Data Bank - Apollo - 07-28-2014, 09:54 PM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - Apollo - 07-28-2014, 10:02 PM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - Apollo - 07-29-2014, 12:56 AM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - peter - 07-29-2014, 07:05 AM
Tiger recycling bin - Roflcopters - 09-04-2014, 01:36 AM
RE: Tiger recycling bin - Pckts - 09-04-2014, 02:22 AM
RE: Tiger recycling bin - Roflcopters - 09-05-2014, 01:01 AM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - Apollo - 11-15-2014, 10:07 PM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - Apollo - 11-15-2014, 10:57 PM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - Apollo - 11-15-2014, 11:33 PM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - Apollo - 02-19-2015, 11:25 PM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - GuateGojira - 02-23-2015, 11:36 AM
Status of tigers in India - Shardul - 12-20-2015, 03:23 PM
RE: Tiger Directory - Diamir2 - 10-03-2016, 04:27 AM
RE: Tiger Directory - peter - 10-03-2016, 06:22 AM
Genetics of all tiger subspecies - parvez - 07-15-2017, 01:08 PM
RE: Tiger Predation - peter - 11-11-2017, 08:08 AM
RE: Man-eaters - Wolverine - 12-03-2017, 11:30 AM
RE: Man-eaters - peter - 12-04-2017, 09:44 AM
RE: Tigers of Central India - Wolverine - 04-13-2018, 01:17 AM
RE: Tigers of Central India - qstxyz - 04-13-2018, 08:34 PM
RE: Size comparisons - peter - 07-16-2019, 05:28 AM
RE: Amur Tigers - peter - 05-20-2021, 07:13 AM
RE: Amur Tigers - Nyers - 05-21-2021, 08:02 PM
RE: Amur Tigers - peter - 05-22-2021, 08:09 AM
RE: Amur Tigers - GuateGojira - 04-06-2022, 12:59 AM
RE: Amur Tigers - tigerluver - 04-06-2022, 01:08 AM
RE: Amur Tigers - tigerluver - 04-06-2022, 09:08 AM
RE: Amur Tigers - tigerluver - 04-06-2022, 11:30 PM
RE: Amur Tigers - peter - 04-08-2022, 07:27 AM



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