There is a world somewhere between reality and fiction. Although ignored by many, it is very real and so are those living in it. This forum is about the natural world. Here, wild animals will be heard and respected. The forum offers a glimpse into an unknown world as well as a room with a view on the present and the future. Anyone able to speak on behalf of those living in the emerald forest and the deep blue sea is invited to join.
--- Peter Broekhuijsen ---

  • 12 Vote(s) - 3.83 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)

Canada Wolverine Away
Regular Member
***
( This post was last modified: 11-27-2017, 04:51 PM by Wolverine )

(11-25-2017, 07:31 AM)peter Wrote:
(11-23-2017, 05:03 AM)Wolverine Wrote:
(10-31-2017, 09:05 AM)peter Wrote: Updates on 'Rashel' and her cubs

As the article triggered the interest of many, we would be very interested in a follow-up on Rashel, her four cubs and the bear. Maybe you can find a bit more?

Here is the new article and continuation of story about Amur tigress "Rashel" from yesterday, 11/22/2017
https://news.mail.ru/society/31714240/

"A TIGRESS IN THE HABAROVSKI REGION'S FOREST GOT RID OF A MANIAC

The forest rangers suggest that the multi-child tigress has "complained" to the father of her cubs from the bear

The bear who regularly displaced her from her kills in the aria of Lazo discontinued to follow her due to some not very clear reasons.

...............................................................................here the article repeats the facts about displacement from previous article

- Some time ago she roared in unusual way in the forest, as we understand she "complained" from the bear to the male tiger "Ockarik", who roam not far away. He is the father of Rachel's cubs we several times noticed that they meet each other regularly. And currently the bear (we gave him a nickname "Hlamida", because he is gigantic) got further away from her and doesn't pursue her anymore - told to Information Agency "Habrovski region today" Alexandr Batalov, a director of forest-hunting unit "Durminskoe".

Despite in the aria of Lazo is already a lot of snow nor the Asiatic black bears, nor the brown bears are not yet entered into hibernation. According to ranger's words the bears could be active longer if there is a lot of food in the forest. We are not giving up to destroy the bear Hlamida. Untill the  end of November we have a bear hunting license. But this bear is not simple - he is quite cunning - admitted Batalov. In general brown bears are smart animals and by opininion of some scientists could outsmart apes and wolves and they are able to forecast the situation"
That's the end of the article.

On the 1 minute video are shown Rashel and a male tiger Ockarik.

WOLVERINE

Thanks for the follow-up. The conclusion of the rangers could be correct. Adult male Amur tigers often share their territory with more than one female. They fathered most, if not all, cubs and have a strong bond with the females and the cubs. As they use a lot of energy patrolling their territory, it's more than likely that they are well-informed. Wild tigers know when to hunt where and how to avoid problems. As to the bear situation. My guess is they know a lot more than we assume. Trainers consider captive tigers as observers and thinkers. Researchers agree.

a - The flipside of extortion

All in all, I'd say it's very likely that male tiger 'Ockarik' knew about the male brown bear 'Hlamida' and his peculiar habit regarding tigress 'Rashel'. My guess is the bear, maybe as a result of his size, overplayed his hand in the extortion department. If the rangers noticed, it's more than likely that male tiger 'Ockarik' also was aware about the situation. When 'Rashel' had had enough, she most probably made it known.

b - Intention in animals

I don't know if the rangers or tiger 'Ockarik' had a talk with 'Hlamida', but I do know that intentions effect communication. I could invite Einstein for an explanation, but I'm afraid it could take a few days. I could also say that the effect of intentions often is immediate. I saw it in humans and I'm very sure that intentions are even more important when animals interact.   

Example. I assume that most of us read the numerous stories from hunters unable to contact the animals they're after during the hunting season. The moment they leave their rifle at home and go for a walk, they see one trophy animal after the other.  

Hlamida is a real big boy. My guess is he knows about the outcry of 'Rashel', the response of 'Ockarik', the interest of the rangers and the hunting season. The rangers said 'Hlamida' is a cunning animal. This means that he most probably picked up the tell-tale signs. As they didn't look good, he decided to change a few habits.

c - Alliances

Could male tiger 'Ockarik' be a part of these signs? 'Hlamida' is about twice his size (referring to weight). No problem, one would think. But you never know in a serious fight. Furthermore, there is alliances.    

I remember a post from someone who had seen many videos from Everland. As he was able to read Korean as well, he was able to get to a decent analysis. He posted the result of his quest in Carnivora some years ago. It was an interesting read. Not pro-tiger or anti-lion, but different. In my opinion, it was the end of the myths often discussed by posters interested in lions and tigers. The stories about lions teaming up on tigers and tigers unable to adapt to the situation, I mean. Lions have an initial advantage when they share a large enclosure with tigers because they know about teamwork (inborn), but tigers apparently are able to adapt to a degree after some time. I printed the analysis and will post it when the opportunity presents itself. 

Returning to alliances. Tigers are solitary animals. When males fight, other males will not intervene. But females do at times. I have seen it, John Varty saw (and wrote about) it and I read stories about wild tigers teaming up at times. If never heard about two males teaming up, but a female can team up with a male and I also read stories of wild females teaming up. A male and a female can team up to hunt, but an alliance can also be a result of the intention to protect a relation or a territory.

d - Interaction between captive Amur tigers and brown bears

I never read anything about wild tigers teaming up on bears, but I have seen captive Amur tigers interact with captive brown bears more than once in facilities. I also heard about interactions that resulted in very serious incidents. In one of these, 3 tigers and one bear were involved.  

In the late nineties of the last century, I was invited by the director of a facility. He had adopted 7 Amur tigers from a French circus. The day they arrived, reporters were invited. During the interviews taken in front of the tiger cage wagon, I sensed something I had never 'felt' before.  

The tigers seemed very agitated, if not outright aggressive. Silent aggression, it was. At one stage, all 7 stood on their hindlegs watching another cage wagon. I hadn't seen the other wagon, as it was evening. I walked to the other wagon. Halfway both cage wagons, I waited for some minutes. What I felt, was difficult to describe. My best attempt would be to say that I was flooded by something I had never felt before. A 'conversation of death', meaby? Very heavy energy, it was. After some minutes, I went to the other cage wagon. In this wagon, I saw a very large male brown bear in great distress. After watching him for some time, the director of the facility suddenly appeared. He too had felt something and left the reporters to investigate. He immediately had the cage wagon of the bear moved.

A few months later, the bear was sedated for treatment. When they had finally lifted him to a table with a machine often used by building companies, they called me. When I went in to measure him, I was nearly flattened by reporters, cage hands, keepers and all others assisting the vet. The bear had destroyed the ropes and one of the heavy doors. It was the one leading to his cage. They never gave it another try. The bear was a giant, but he was never weighed. A few months after the attempt to treat him, he was transported to another facility. 

e - Hlamida   

Returning to tigress 'Rashel', tiger 'Ockarik', bear 'Hlamida', the rangers and those interested in a trophy bear. Of these, one ('Hlamida') has a serious problem. My guess is he knows and took his precautions. I hope he finds a quiet place to hibernate. It would be a shame to lose such a giant.

f - Size of 'Rashel'

As we couldn't compare her to another female or a male Amur tiger, we used the average weight of adult wild Amur tigresses (about 120 kg. or 265 pounds) in the previous post. When the video starts, male tiger 'Ockarik' passes her at a distance of a few feet when she is standing in a normal position with her head slightly raised. At that moment, the top of her skull is at the same level as the top of the shoulder of 'Ockarik'. This means that the male is much taller than the female.

He could be a giant, but my guess is that 'Rashel' is a smallish tigress. Mazak (1983, pp. 180) published a table with the standing height of captive tigers. Five Amur tigresses ranged between 82-88 cm. (average about 85 cm.), whereas 7 males ranged between 96-106 cm. If we add the giant male from the Duisburg Zoo (110 cm.), the 8 males averaged 102-103 cm. The difference between captive males and females, therefore, is 17-18 cm. My guess is that the difference between 'Rashel' and 'Ockarik' is well over that mark. 

We know that wild Amur tigers are smaller than captive Amur tigers. If we assume that 'Ockarik' is about average (95 cm. at the shoulder while standing), tigress 'Rashel' is 75 cm. at most. If 'Ockarik' is large (say 100 cm.), 'Rashel' is about 80 cm., meaby a bit less.

Wild male Amur tigers average 176-177 kg. If we remove young adults and 'problem' tigers, the average rises to about 190 kg. (420 pounds). Miquelle thought 430 pounds (195 kg.) would be closer to the mark, but I propose to use 185-190 kg. for now. 

A good average has all: the young, the old, the big, the small, the healthy and the unhealthy. Prime males in good health seem to average about 200 kg. (442 pounds). Let's assume that 'Ockarik', who seems very fit, is close to that mark (200 kg.). If so, tigress 'Rashel' is about half his weight, meaby even less. It's not unsusual to see an Amur tigress of that size. One adult captive Amur tigress I weighed was only 223 cm. in total length in a straight line and just over 100 kg. Her mother, at 254 cm. in total length and 136 kg., was quite a bit larger. In the great monography of Yudakov and Nikolaev ('Winter ecology of the Amur tiger', 2nd revised edition, 2012, pp. 78-80), one of the tigresses they studied was nicknamed 'The Miniature Tigress'.     

g - Interaction between wild tigers and brown bears - psychological warfare

The big bear seems to be 3-4 times the weight of 'Rashel'. Let's assume he is 350 kg. for now. Almost 800 pounds is more than enough to confront any tiger anywhere, but a tiger is faster and at least as agile. Furthermore, there is the teeth department. The canines, I mean. Talking maximum force at the tip of the canines. If we add plenty of experience in using them and fore-arms strong enough to handle a herbivore twice the weight of a large male bear, the outlook changes somewhat. As bears are very durable and difficult to kill, one would still fancy his chances. This regarding a one-on-one in the fysical department. 

But a fued isn't about fysical abilities only. A fued is always there. So is stress. Tigers know and use what seems to be psychological warfare. The man who robbed and wounded a male Amur tiger in Sobolonye was gone before he was attacked and eaten ('The tiger', John Vaillant, 2010).   

Based on what I read and saw, it starts with intention. A few probing attackes maybe. Than more serious raids directed at weak spots. Maybe they let go during hibernation to wait for a better opportunity. Early spring maybe? According to trainers, fueds can last for a very long time. It is about making your presence felt. That and the culmination of anger. And selecting the right moment. 

Tiger Corbett (in John Varty's place) was losing a serious fight with another male when the female he knew so well intervened. She saved his life for sure. Some time later, he killed his opponent. He wasn't stronger, but selected the right moment (his opponent was sleeping when he was attacked).          

When tigers and bears are discussed by posters, males of about equal size feature in hypothetical scenarios and ideal circumstances, ring judges and all. But reality is very much different. It could be that most bouts are a result of aggression or sheer rage near kill sites. In these fights, coincidence is a factor. When it is about a fued, other things come into play. Psychological warfare is one of these. The waiting game. I do not doubt that bears are very intelligent. They have to be in order to be able to turn the tables. In a cage, when a bit larger, the more durable animal would stand a decent chance. In natural conditions, one would perhaps fancy the born predator. This regarding average males and one-on-one scenarios.

If a large bear faces an alliance, he has a problem. Large felids, large scavengers and extortion are part of nature. Large bears no doubt dominate and extort adult tigresses and young adult male tigers at times, but if a more or less natural habit develops into an obsession that has an effect on bonds and territory, things change. Linda Kerley is one of those in the know on tigers and bears in the Russian Far East. She says anything can happen. I agree.      

h - The video 

I watched the video many times. In the beginning, tigress 'Rashel' seems alert and anxious. A bit bewildered, if you will. Tiger 'Ockarit', after checking the forest behind her, almost touches her when he passes her. After a second check (including checking the camera, so it seems), he watches her and talked to her. She then lies down and relaxes. Seems like he told her not to worry. 

I've seen it many times in facilities. Males usually don't respond to changes, but females are different. A tigress with cubs in particular is generally more alert and more moody. If a cage is cleaned and a tigress has to move house, she can explode out of nowhere. Not seldom, keepers are attacked in those situations. Fights between females also can develop. Males often intervene during these disputes to keep the damage limited. In captivity, a male strongly connected to a female seems to take care of her. Not seldom, it feels like he is reassuring her. I don't think that wild tigers are different in this respect.

HERE IT IS!
Peter, I just found this new 30 minutes documentary film (from November 2017) shot exactly in the aria of Rashel-bear interaction where you can hear everything directly from the mouth of Mr Alexandr Batalov. He explains in details how he follow tigers in the snow and measure their traces, how he install camera traps, give some biography of different tigers (including Ockarik, Kya and others), numerous videos and photos of wild Amurs tigers are shown:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZu87Fg1zDA

The film is called "On the trail of Amur tiger" and was just presented by Mr. Batalov in Habarovsk. He seems to be a remarkable man, thanks to such men Amur tiger still exist, his huge self-governing entity even invite foreign tourists and tiger-lovers from abroad to visit those wild places.
I think this is a must see documentary for those who like Amur tigers.
6 users Like Wolverine's post
Reply




Messages In This Thread
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris) - Wolverine - 11-27-2017, 04:34 PM
Demythologizing T16 - tigerluver - 04-12-2020, 11:44 AM
Tiger Data Bank - Apollo - 07-28-2014, 09:54 PM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - Apollo - 07-28-2014, 10:02 PM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - Apollo - 07-29-2014, 12:56 AM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - peter - 07-29-2014, 07:05 AM
Tiger recycling bin - Roflcopters - 09-04-2014, 01:36 AM
RE: Tiger recycling bin - Pckts - 09-04-2014, 02:22 AM
RE: Tiger recycling bin - Roflcopters - 09-05-2014, 01:01 AM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - Apollo - 11-15-2014, 10:07 PM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - Apollo - 11-15-2014, 10:57 PM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - Apollo - 11-15-2014, 11:33 PM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - Apollo - 02-19-2015, 11:25 PM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - GuateGojira - 02-23-2015, 11:36 AM
Status of tigers in India - Shardul - 12-20-2015, 03:23 PM
RE: Tiger Directory - Diamir2 - 10-03-2016, 04:27 AM
RE: Tiger Directory - peter - 10-03-2016, 06:22 AM
Genetics of all tiger subspecies - parvez - 07-15-2017, 01:08 PM
RE: Tiger Predation - peter - 11-11-2017, 08:08 AM
RE: Man-eaters - Wolverine - 12-03-2017, 11:30 AM
RE: Man-eaters - peter - 12-04-2017, 09:44 AM
RE: Tigers of Central India - Wolverine - 04-13-2018, 01:17 AM
RE: Tigers of Central India - qstxyz - 04-13-2018, 08:34 PM
RE: Size comparisons - peter - 07-16-2019, 05:28 AM
RE: Amur Tigers - peter - 05-20-2021, 07:13 AM
RE: Amur Tigers - Nyers - 05-21-2021, 08:02 PM
RE: Amur Tigers - peter - 05-22-2021, 08:09 AM
RE: Amur Tigers - GuateGojira - 04-06-2022, 12:59 AM
RE: Amur Tigers - tigerluver - 04-06-2022, 01:08 AM
RE: Amur Tigers - tigerluver - 04-06-2022, 09:08 AM
RE: Amur Tigers - tigerluver - 04-06-2022, 11:30 PM
RE: Amur Tigers - peter - 04-08-2022, 07:27 AM



Users browsing this thread:
5 Guest(s)

About Us
Go Social     Subscribe  

Welcome to WILDFACT forum, a website that focuses on sharing the joy that wildlife has on offer. We welcome all wildlife lovers to join us in sharing that joy. As a member you can share your research, knowledge and experience on animals with the community.
wildfact.com is intended to serve as an online resource for wildlife lovers of all skill levels from beginners to professionals and from all fields that belong to wildlife anyhow. Our focus area is wild animals from all over world. Content generated here will help showcase the work of wildlife experts and lovers to the world. We believe by the help of your informative article and content we will succeed to educate the world, how these beautiful animals are important to survival of all man kind.
Many thanks for visiting wildfact.com. We hope you will keep visiting wildfact regularly and will refer other members who have passion for wildlife.

Forum software by © MyBB