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ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)

peter Offline
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( This post was last modified: 12-24-2016, 05:48 PM by peter )

TIGERS AND BEARS IN THE HIMALAYAS

I read quite a few old books, but found nothing about tigers and brown bears in the Himalayas. Black bears is a different story. In Russia, black bears are hunted by Amur tigers. In the foothills of the Himalayas, they are not. One of the reasons could be size. Although some male black bears can get to 400 pounds and just over in southeastern Russia, the average is closer to 300-350 pounds. Not a few males, however, would struggle to get to 300. In the region just south of the Himalayas, males are larger and heavier.

Those who knew both wrote there was little to choose between male sloth bears and male black Himalayan bears a century ago. In that period, sloth bears were killed by tigers every now and then. Judging from letters published in the JBNHS, males were included. I never read anything about tigers hunting Himalayan black bears. 

The 'ring method' used by the Maharajah of Nepal just before World War Two produced both tigers and bears at times. What he saw strongly suggested that Himalayan black bears did not fear tigers. Although only immatures and females were involved, the story wouldn't be very different in males.

When he sat in a tree waiting for the tiger to appear, Corbett saw a large male black bear heading straight for the Temple tiger on his kill (a cow). The bear stalked the tiger (...) and jumped into the hollow where the tiger was eating. He didn't see what happened, but could hear every detail of the fight that followed. After a few minutes, the tiger

" ... broke off the engagement and came along the open ground in front of me at a fast gallop, closely followed by the still screaming bear ... " ('The Temple Tiger', Jim Corbett).

Corbett had a go at the tiger, but missed. He did shoot the bear from a distance of a few feet only though. He wrote he had no other choice. When Corbett had his hands in his pockets searching for a cigarette and matches, he saw

" ... the Temple tiger unhuriedly cantering along the open ground over which he had galloped a minute or two earlier ... looking not at me, but at his dead enemy ... " ( 'The Temple Tiger'). 

After a smoke, Corbett

" ... stepped down from the holly tree and went to have a look at the bear, who, I found, was even bigger than I had at first thought. His self-sought fight with the tiger had been a very real one, for blood from a number of deep cuts was seeping through the thick fur on his neck and in several places his scalp was torn right down to the bone. These wounds would have mattered little to a tough animal like a bear, but what did matter and what had annoyed him was the injury to his nose. All males resent being struck on the nose, and not had the bear been struck on that tender spot but insult had been added to injury by his nose being torn in half. Reason enough for him to have chased the tiger with murder in his eyes, and for him to have ignored the report of my heavy rifle ... " ('The Temple tiger').

The tiger, to be sure, was described as a large male. What is 'large' in Corbett's dictionary? Well, he shot quite a number of male tigers exceeding 10 feet 'over curves' in total length. The tables I posted about tigers in northern India shot a century ago showed impressive averages. A 'large' male in northern India, like the Temple tiger Corbett was after, would have been at least 9.4 in total length 'between pegs' and most probably well over 440 pounds. Not a joke, that is. But not large enough to impress a determined male Himalayan black bear, so it seems.     

So if it wasn't size, what was the difference between sloth bears and Himalayan black bears back then? A difference that would make even a large male tiger think twice? 

My take is size was a reason. I read too many reports about Himalayan male black bears described as 'very large'. And 'very large' was quantified in some cases in that some males were estimated at well over 500 pounds by experienced observers. Some of them towered over 7 and even 8 feet on their hindlegs. That's as big as a decent male brown bear. It could be there wasn't much to choose between them at the level of averages, but large male sloth bears just exceeded 400 pounds a century ago, whereas there are plenty of reports about large male Himalayan black bears estimated well over that mark. Same for southeast Asia, by the way. Some male black bears in the northern part of what used to be French Indochina were estimated at well over 500 pounds half a century ago. As big as the biggest male tigers in that region.   

Attitude could be another difference. Although confrontations between sloth bears and tigers often result in a stalemate, sloth bears will run when possible. In many cases, they're afraid of tigers. Himalayan black bears are different. Based on what I read, some male Himalayan black bears seem to be prepared to meet the tiger at equal terms. Confrontations not seldom result in a few rounds and the bear described by Corbett was prepared to take on a large male tiger on a kill. That should tell you something. It's very likely he had quite a bit of experience. 

Bearwise, there is a clear difference between Amur and Indian tigers. Even captive Amur tigers show a lot of animosity when they see a bear, no matter how big he is. Bears not only are competitors in Russia. In summer, they also are an important food item. Apparently more so than many researchers initially thought. Recent research also suggests that the bears hunted are not as small as many think. Amur tiger culture definitely includes bears and it often shows. Wild tigers have to learn how to deal with bears or else.  

Indian tigers are different. Although there are tigers who hunt sloth bears, most of them do not. They fight them and kill at times, but that's different from hunting. Only few tigers consider sloth bears as food. Furthermore, there are no reliable reports about Indian tigers hunting Himalayan black bears. More than once, I heard rumours about tigers killed by large bears in the Himalayas. I never found any evidence, but not hunting them is good enough for me.

Notice that size in both cases (Himalayan black bears and Amur tigers) apparently isn't decisive.

Himalayan black bears, although large enough to kick ass anywhere, apparently do not fear Indian tigers. Not in males, I mean. This although we know that Indian tigers, and those in the Himalayas in particular, are unsurpassed in length, robustness and weight. If anything, they are as large as Himalayan black bears, if not larger (averages and extra-large individuals).

Amur tigers, although not as heavy as their Indian relatives, are deeply involved in bears. Those considered to be in the know agree they are prepared to take on bears of similar size (brown and Himalayan black bears). Russian authorities agree that tigers win more often. I have the numbers and concluded it's about two to one, meaby a bit more. I know smaller bears could be included in that result, but it also is a fact that Amur tigers do ok in the heavyweight division. Bears lead on points, but an average male brown bear is larger than an average male Amur tiger (260-270 vs 190-195 kg.) and the big boys (definitely over 700 pounds.) are included.

Attitude. Culture. These things are related to experience and history.    

Returning to the Himalayas. Here's a bit more from those in the know:


*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author



*This image is copyright of its original author


Carrington Turner was a professional (Imperial Forest Service). The one below, a hunter and writer, also saw his fair share of tigers and bears. Try to find them if you can. Both books are not expensive and informative all the way. Make that very informative. They were written by people who saw a lot more than we ever will:


*This image is copyright of its original author
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Messages In This Thread
Demythologizing T16 - tigerluver - 04-12-2020, 11:14 AM
Tiger Data Bank - Apollo - 07-28-2014, 09:24 PM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - Apollo - 07-28-2014, 09:32 PM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - Apollo - 07-29-2014, 12:26 AM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - peter - 07-29-2014, 06:35 AM
Tiger recycling bin - Roflcopters - 09-04-2014, 01:06 AM
RE: Tiger recycling bin - Pckts - 09-04-2014, 01:52 AM
RE: Tiger recycling bin - Roflcopters - 09-05-2014, 12:31 AM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - Apollo - 11-15-2014, 09:37 PM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - Apollo - 11-15-2014, 10:27 PM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - Apollo - 11-15-2014, 11:03 PM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - Apollo - 02-19-2015, 10:55 PM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - GuateGojira - 02-23-2015, 11:06 AM
Status of tigers in India - Shardul - 12-20-2015, 02:53 PM
RE: Tiger Directory - Diamir2 - 10-03-2016, 03:57 AM
RE: Tiger Directory - peter - 10-03-2016, 05:52 AM
RE: Bears of the Himalayan Mountains - peter - 12-24-2016, 05:24 PM
Genetics of all tiger subspecies - parvez - 07-15-2017, 12:38 PM
RE: Tiger Predation - peter - 11-11-2017, 07:38 AM
RE: Man-eaters - Wolverine - 12-03-2017, 11:00 AM
RE: Man-eaters - peter - 12-04-2017, 09:14 AM
RE: Tigers of Central India - Wolverine - 04-13-2018, 12:47 AM
RE: Tigers of Central India - qstxyz - 04-13-2018, 08:04 PM
RE: Size comparisons - peter - 07-16-2019, 04:58 AM
RE: Amur Tigers - peter - 05-20-2021, 06:43 AM
RE: Amur Tigers - Nyers - 05-21-2021, 07:32 PM
RE: Amur Tigers - peter - 05-22-2021, 07:39 AM
RE: Amur Tigers - GuateGojira - 04-06-2022, 12:29 AM
RE: Amur Tigers - tigerluver - 04-06-2022, 12:38 AM
RE: Amur Tigers - tigerluver - 04-06-2022, 08:38 AM
RE: Amur Tigers - tigerluver - 04-06-2022, 11:00 PM
RE: Amur Tigers - peter - 04-08-2022, 06:57 AM



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