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ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - THE TIGER (Panthera tigris)

peter Offline
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( This post was last modified: 09-23-2016, 09:47 PM by peter )

(09-23-2016, 08:50 AM)altaican Wrote: Thank you @peter 

I am glad you have posted a tremendous amount of information there. I was looking for something like this. 
I haven't gone through it all yet, but will definitely go through it. I am looking for weight measurements of wild tigers (and lions).

*1 - That 461 pound average of Kaziranga tiger, did you get that number from the data of Maharajah of Cooch Behar?

I used to post on a forum similar to this about 10-12 years back (it was AvA forum in shark ezboards).
*2 -  Back then the lion-tiger battles on that board were pretty brutal, but it was a lot of fun.

This seems to be a very different forum, more mature. An outcome of those AvA battles back then was that I had the pleasure of 
chatting with eminent Big Cat Scientists (like Dr.Craig Packer, Dr. Mel Sunquist etc.) regarding big cat behavior.

When it comes to big cat sizes, it looks like different people have different opinions. Difficult to say anything until we have raw data.

*3 - Dr.Sunquist had studied tigers in Chitwan (Nepal) & later on in Nagarhole (South India). I think he was one of 
the first Scientists to radio-collar the Sauraha male tiger. He was just astonished by it's size. He was clearly amazed by how the 
tiger just flattened out the 500 pound scale as if it was nothing.

When I showed him the photograph of Madla (the muscular male from Panna), he wasn't particularly impressed (when in comparison with the Sauraha male). 
He was insistent that the Sauraha male was bigger. 
Even when I pointed out that neck girth of Madla was 4 inches more than that of the Sauraha male (90cms vs 80cms), he still wouldn't budge.

*4 - I recall a 650 pound wild tiger from South India, the measurement was accurate, and the tiger was not particularly full, but the tiger was a cattle lifter.

*5 - During his study, Dr.Brian Bertram had measured the weights of several East African lions and came up with a correlation between the weight of a lion and it's chest girth.

I wonder if any such pattern has been observed in wild tigers.

*6 - Would you happen to know the actually measured weights (and other measurement data) of any of the recent, famous wild tigers of India (like Jai from UKWLS, 
or Konda from Kanha or Raja from Bandipur)? I am looking for actually measured weights.

*7 - I am also interested in dispersal of male tigers (this is absolutely essential for their survival in the wild, promotes a healthy gene pool). 
In one of the DNA studies (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3819329/), I read that there is genetic exchange between tigers of Central India and 
tigers in Srisailam forest in South India. That is pretty amazing, considering the distance.

I didn't want to respond by quoting the entire post, but I thought it was the best option because it had a lot of questions. We don't want to force readers to scroll up and down all the time. I'll respond from the top down. In order to get to a bit of clarity, I added stars and numbers in your post. Hope you don't mind.

*1 - The Cooch Behar average for male tigers is based on the records in the book of the Maharajah of Cooch Behar. I posted over 20 tables in this thread last winter. If you're interested, I would advice to have a look. This thread, roundabout December and January.

*2 - I know the forum you mentioned, but didn't participate. Although some of the debates about lions and tigers produced good information and interesting clashes, most did not. This is why we, regarding this forum, decided to concentrate on info. In the end, this policy will result in more knowledge and more good posters. When we have enough, we could contemplate starting a debate.

*3 - I understand why Sunquist was amazed. Big lions are big from the start, but big tigers are not. At least, not always. Sizewise, tiger can be a bit deceptive. When I asked those present in a facility to estimate the weight of two big cats (a male lion and a male Amur tiger), the lion was overestimated, whereas the opposite was true for the tiger. This although the difference between both big cats was quite visible. Most people, so it seems, focus on the front. What they see in male lions is a big skull, a mane, an upright position, robustness and an attitude. Captive tigers have shorter skulls, no mane and black vertical stripes. Furthermore, tigers are elusive animals, not interested in a crowd. They like their privacy.

Maybe only those who actually carried and touched dozens of sedated big cats are able to get to an opinion. I don't think there much to choose between both for robustness, but opinions differ. This regarding captive animals. 

I never saw a wild lion or tiger, but it seems the difference between wild and captive animals often is significant. Captive lions seem a bit larger than their wild relatives. This is what I see and this is what those with experience told me. Wild tigers, on the other hand, often seem larger and a bit more robust than their captive relatives. The reasons have been discussed in my previous post. Tigers who don't establish themselves, often struggle. Those who succeed, continue to develop and to grow. Some think wild male tigers grow until they die. I wouldn't know about that, but it is a fact that the Sauraha male continued to grow after he reached adulthood. He bottomed a 500-pound scale when Sunquist was there, but some years later he bottomed a 600-pound scale. He also added over 3 inches in total length as an adult.

My guess is wild male lions thrive in the first stages of adulthood. After reaching 7-8, they often quickly lose condition. A wild male lion of 10 years in good health is quite exceptional. Wild male tigers seem to need more time to mature. I've read plenty of reliable stories about 10-15 year old male tigers in good condition. Today, however, this is no longer the case. Not in India, that is. The reason could be a lack of space and more competition. More competition results in more conflicts, more wear and more injuries. Size can help, but most males in a reserve are quite similar in size these days. The reason is no corridors and, therefore, no new blood. Reliable observers agreed big and small tigers lived in close proximity a century ago, but that was in a period tigers could roam over much of India. Today, that's all but impossible in many parts of India.

Wild male lions could be more often involved in clashes, but many of these are quickly decided in that small coalitions usually make way for large ones. If you're part of a large coalition, chances are you can last for quite some time. If not, you got a problem. Males injured or killed in fights often are outnumbered. When both coalitions are similar in size (referring to numbers and combined weight), clashes are either decided by surprise (resulting in local superiority in numbers) or a conference resulting in a new border. One seldom hears about perfectly matched bouts between, say, two coalitions of four going all the way until a decision is reached. I understand, as it wouldn't make sense: total devastation only offers opportunities for a third coalition. 

When male tigers who compare in size decide for a fight, chances are it could take some time to get to a decision. Based on what I read, saw (documentaries) and heard (trainers), it could even take days, if not weeks. When one of the two decides to call it a day, chances are the match will be resumed later. Not seldom, however, one of the two perishes as a result of injuries. The reason often is small reserves in that the loser has nowhere to go. It's do or die. Over the years, deaths resulting from 'natural causes' (like fights) have increased significantly.

One could say wild male lions are more often involved in conflicts and, for this reason, more experienced, but fights between between wild male tigers, for the reason mentioned (no place to go), could be more serious. This would result in less experience, but less experience doesn't equal less ability. Not in an all-out fight. Every all-out is close to unpredictable. There's no such thing as experience in an all-out. What was effective against opponent 1 might prove to be ineffective against opponent 2. If you're unable to solve the problem right away, it could be curtains. In a fight, you need to be healthy, but something else could be more important. Grit, or whatever you want to call it, isn't connected to species and culture. It's an individual thing all the way. Culture is important when you join a team and interact. It won't, however, result in more ability in solving serious problems. For the same token, one could say an animal used to taking decisions on his own and executing them as well could have an advantage. And then, in the end, there's always the banana you didn't see. One could be end of story. Posters discussing the outcome of conflicts often underestimate chance, but it really often is a factor to consider. Same for other small things people tend to overlook. This is why I often go for 'unpredictable'. But I wouldn't mind talking to tiger Raja, who was able to beat 'unpredictable' more than once. Same for the lion Stevenson-Hamilton hunted for so long. He was big and very clever. Good combination.                    

*4 - We're interested in the report about this tiger. A wild big cat hitting 650 is something out of the ordinary. 

*5 - Based on the tables I posted (see above), one could say there is a connection between chest girth and weight in Indian tigers, but it is not as outspoken as in bears or lions. The relation between total length and weight could be as strong, if not more so. Others thought skull width was the most reliable indicator. I measured a lot of skulls and noticed Indian tigers often have (relatively) wider skulls than other subspecies. Skulls of captive male lions, however, compared. As we know that Indian tigers are heavier than other tiger subspecies and captive lions are a bit bigger than wild lions, one could say skull width could be a good indicator. But we also know that skulls of captive lions often seem to have collapsed: they are not as long and elevated as skulls of wild lions, but much wider. Width, therefore, could be a factor to consider in wild big cats. In captive big cats, other factors could be more important.  

*6 - I have a number of weights I consider reliable, but the amount is very limited. The reason is one seldom, if ever, knows in what way the weight was taken. Not seldom, published weights later appear to be adjusted in some way. This is the reason weights often result in debates. As the details needed to get to a conclusion often are lacking, I decided to refrain from using them. Same story for length. All in all, I'd say many reports about the size of tigers from India are confusing. The only thing I know is Indian tigers are large animals. If you want to know a bit more, my advice is to ask Guate to help out. 

*7 - Some time ago, I posted more than once about a tiger called 'Broken Tail'. He was a young guy who who met with faith when he decided to select a path close to a railway in order to avoid humans and to stay cool. There are many stories about young male tigers walking long distances in India when they disperse. Many of them don't make it. The reason is long distances and many humans. In some cases, researchers were able to find the details of the journey. Most of them were quite impressive.
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Messages In This Thread
RE: ON THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION - A - TIGERS (Panthera tigris) - peter - 09-23-2016, 01:05 PM
Demythologizing T16 - tigerluver - 04-12-2020, 11:44 AM
Tiger Data Bank - Apollo - 07-28-2014, 09:54 PM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - Apollo - 07-28-2014, 10:02 PM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - Apollo - 07-29-2014, 12:56 AM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - peter - 07-29-2014, 07:05 AM
Tiger recycling bin - Roflcopters - 09-04-2014, 01:36 AM
RE: Tiger recycling bin - Pckts - 09-04-2014, 02:22 AM
RE: Tiger recycling bin - Roflcopters - 09-05-2014, 01:01 AM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - Apollo - 11-15-2014, 10:07 PM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - Apollo - 11-15-2014, 10:57 PM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - Apollo - 11-15-2014, 11:33 PM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - Apollo - 02-19-2015, 11:25 PM
RE: Tiger Data Bank - GuateGojira - 02-23-2015, 11:36 AM
Status of tigers in India - Shardul - 12-20-2015, 03:23 PM
RE: Tiger Directory - Diamir2 - 10-03-2016, 04:27 AM
RE: Tiger Directory - peter - 10-03-2016, 06:22 AM
Genetics of all tiger subspecies - parvez - 07-15-2017, 01:08 PM
RE: Tiger Predation - peter - 11-11-2017, 08:08 AM
RE: Man-eaters - Wolverine - 12-03-2017, 11:30 AM
RE: Man-eaters - peter - 12-04-2017, 09:44 AM
RE: Tigers of Central India - Wolverine - 04-13-2018, 01:17 AM
RE: Tigers of Central India - qstxyz - 04-13-2018, 08:34 PM
RE: Size comparisons - peter - 07-16-2019, 05:28 AM
RE: Amur Tigers - peter - 05-20-2021, 07:13 AM
RE: Amur Tigers - Nyers - 05-21-2021, 08:02 PM
RE: Amur Tigers - peter - 05-22-2021, 08:09 AM
RE: Amur Tigers - GuateGojira - 04-06-2022, 12:59 AM
RE: Amur Tigers - tigerluver - 04-06-2022, 01:08 AM
RE: Amur Tigers - tigerluver - 04-06-2022, 09:08 AM
RE: Amur Tigers - tigerluver - 04-06-2022, 11:30 PM
RE: Amur Tigers - peter - 04-08-2022, 07:27 AM



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